[E241] The Consequences of Consequences

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Welcome to the Empowered to Connect podcast where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families and our communities. [00:00:19] Speaker C: Welcome to the Empowered to Connect podcast. It's Tana here and I am incredibly excited for this episode to be joined by Jesse and Nick Ferris. So many of y' all may know Jesse, and we are just really, really, really excited to have you with us, Nick. I really am a Nick Ferris fan. So when we thought about this topic and just fatherhood and parenting and how to just love children well and think about consequences, I was really, really excited about having this conversation with y'. All. Mo and I have known the Ferrisses a long time and have had the privilege and honor to watch them parent talking and walking with them before kids were even in your home. Right. So as we've walked this Empowered to Connect journey in parenting, we really get to do it hand in hand. So it is a joy to be able to talk about this with y'. All. So welcome. [00:01:16] Speaker A: Thank you so much. I'm glad to have Nick with us. Normally it's, you know, girls around the round table, so welcome. [00:01:25] Speaker D: Nick, what's the. What's the verbal way to blush? [00:01:29] Speaker C: I know. [00:01:29] Speaker A: I think you just did it. [00:01:30] Speaker C: Oh, you can be like, oh, thanks. [00:01:32] Speaker D: Oh, you guys. Tell me more about how great I am. [00:01:37] Speaker A: We. [00:01:37] Speaker C: I could keep going. [00:01:39] Speaker D: Okay. [00:01:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:40] Speaker A: We have been blessed to parent in the vicinity of the Odingers, and really, they've mentored us over the years, especially as we were getting started. So for those of you who didn't know, we have a special friendship with Tana and Mo. [00:01:57] Speaker C: Yeah. So we're going to jump in and talk about consequences, which is a lofty topic, to say the least, and a topic that is often when parents come to us and they want to push back or ask questions or dig deeper. When we think about connected parenting, when we think about parenting that's focused on relationship, I think there's a real big question around, where do consequences sort of fit into the empowered to connect puzzle, if you will? So we want to talk about that. And some of the reason why that's important for us is in a traditional parenting approach, a lot of times, consequences are the first round of defense. When you've got confusing, perplexing, maybe difficult, confounding behavior. Oftentimes the very first thing parents pull to is a consequence. So I want to ask first, why do you think that is? And then when that happens, what is lost, what is no longer capable or what can't happen now? So why do we pull towards consequences and then what's lost in the process? [00:03:15] Speaker D: Well, when I think about consequences, I can. I can see one. I would. I would say there's, like, one reason that it is not great, and there's one maybe a little bit in defense of consequences. Let's start with the defensive consequences, because I know it's not really the direction that we're going, but I think the best I could do in justification for using consequences heavily is this idea that, like, this is how the reality world operates. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want. I don't want to raise my children in an environment where they're, you know, constantly supported or, you know, overindulge, and then, you know, the get, quote unquote into the real world. And that's not the way it works. So, like, we want our children to have an understanding that, like, decisions do have an impact on what happens to us or what happens in our lives. And so we think consequences are, like, the way to teach that. And I can. I can sympathize a little bit with that. [00:04:19] Speaker A: But then I really actually appreciate the intentional nature of your defense because I would say I use consequences when I'm tired and I can't think of anything else. [00:04:28] Speaker D: Well, that's the other part of. Yeah, that was the other part of my answer. Is that, okay, now listen, let's be honest. [00:04:34] Speaker A: Yeah, it feels like the easiest way to stop a behavior that you want to stop. [00:04:40] Speaker D: I would even go farther, and I would say when. Like, when I default or when I react with a consequence, it's because I want my. I'll be honest. I want my children to suffer in the same way that they are causing me to suffer in that moment. [00:04:53] Speaker C: Yep. Like, let's make some discomfort. [00:04:56] Speaker D: If you're going to make this hard for me, I'm going to make this hard for you. And we will go down together. [00:05:01] Speaker A: Thanks, Billy Joel. [00:05:03] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. You're welcome. [00:05:05] Speaker C: So I hear two things. I hear, like, hey, we need to think about the bigger picture. The real world doesn't work this way. I mean, I can. I cannot tell you how many times we, together as couples, were teaching parenting classes, and we would be four or five weeks in, and we hadn't talked about consequences yet. And inevitably, when people started getting more comfortable, they'd start asking. But this isn't really how the real world works. Right. So there is a moment when if you really push on it, that's where you're going to logically go. And then there is the practical Nature of, hey, I need something to change. And a consequence is like a really easy pathway to do that. And maybe Nick, as you say, suffer. [00:05:46] Speaker D: All right, yeah, yeah, for sure. But so, like, you know, let's see how much we can deconstruct the, like, the best case scenario or a defense of consequences. I don't. I mean, I think really when we talk about consequences in that way, we're talking about punishment. And I mean, there's a few ways we can go with this. So, like, one quick response would be, there are a lot of ways that the real world operates that I wish it didn't operate that way. So, like, how much of the real world do we really want, you know, to just allow to dictate the way that we parent our children? There are some difficulties, I think, in operating in that way, but more so that, you know, I think we really have to get down to. Like, when we mean consequences, do we mean punishment? Right? Do we mean the suffering? Is it just the suffering part? Because when we talk about how the real world operates, what we're really saying is we want our children to have an understanding and a framework for making wise choices. Right? To understand genuinely how things operate, but also how to, like, live within rules that aren't necessarily chosen by us. Right. So if you work for an organization, every organization has rules. I was talking about this at work today. Like, every rule probably exists because someone did something wrong, and then a rule is created, and now it's like, don't do that. You know, and, like, so, you know, again, I can be sympathetic to that. But I think that punishment is not the only way for our children to understand how to operate within a framework of rules, within a framework of right and wrong. And if we want them to understand that, then. Then I think, again, my question would be, is punishment and consequences really the best way to learn how to do that? Or are there other alternatives available to us that might actually teach that lesson better without suffering for me or them? [00:07:54] Speaker C: So say more about that, Nick, because my question, my second part of that question was like, what science, what is sort of lost in the process? So if we, if we think about consequences the way you're saying, in this scenario, it's punishment. So if a kiddo does something and you move in and you punish the child, what isn't going to happen now? Or what might. What opportunity might have been lost in that moment if we go straight to a punishment? [00:08:23] Speaker D: Yeah, I. So I think it's the opportunity. It's the opportunity to learn what to do I think most of the time we talk about consequences, it's because a child has done something that they should not have done. And so the learning opportunity there is to, like, you know, talk through with your child, you know, explain to me why you made this choice. A lot of, like, if I, if I go straight to consequence and I go straight to punishment, then I assume I understand intent. But if I can remain curious and be like, well, I'm suffering because of whatever choice this child made, you know, whether it's big or small, it's like, can I still remain curious? And like, tell me about the decision process. Like, why did you make this decision? But then also, if you go to consequences, I think you can kind of lose the ability for. For them to be capable, to learn what they could have done instead. Right. So then if your entire parenting stance is just don't do that, especially for our younger children, but even for our teenagers, I think what they need more often is to be told, do this or do this instead. But if you spend your whole life thinking, okay, now, now I have to figure out what mom and dad think I should not do, then like, you know, there's so much going on there, and I haven't really talked about connection. But, you know, I. Maybe, Jesse, you want to talk about the connection piece that is at play with consequences. But, you know, all of those opportunities to learn and to practice making the right choices, lost. If it's just don't do that. [00:10:01] Speaker A: You just said a phrase that something's lost. All of those opportunities are lost. And I think that's the thing about consequences as a tool. And we can talk about it. There are times when we use consequences in our house. We use them under a very certain kind of circumstances. But I'll tell you what we are committed not to do, which is to pull that baby out first. And it's because when you lay down a consequence, you said this or else this, and that's the end of the line. Because either they're going to do or not do it. They're either going to comply with. With what you're saying or they're not. And then the consequence will happen. You can't come back from that. There's no way to, like, layer on extra strategies and tools once you've said this or else this or this, the punishment, it's. You just have to follow through with or else with the thing that had been laid out as the consequence. And I think the longer we've parented, we still have so much longer to go. Nick. But, but you know, 15ish years into it, it's seeing, whoa, okay. I really am out of place here if I'm going to pull that guy out first because there are so many things I could have done to teach this kid the right way forward. But if I, if I slap down that consequence first, then I'm out of moves I've checkmated and my kid has their. The, the play is done. [00:11:54] Speaker C: I think about it like it short circuits a little bit. The rest of your tools, it's like, oh, there those go. And, and I wonder what, what are yalls thoughts about how when we talk about punishment and this moment when it often happens, how much of it is reactionary versus when you're talking about, hey, there are times we use consequences and we can, we can talk about some of the structure around that and kind of give some examples. But if you are very purp with your consequences, then you're being responsive and choosing to use it at a certain stage in your correction, scaffolding support. But I think very often I appreciated what you said, Nick, the very beginning. Oftentimes it's a reaction. [00:12:45] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:12:45] Speaker C: And then where. And then what? [00:12:48] Speaker D: Yeah. And you know, this isn't fair. I mean, this isn't fair for people who are single parenting. So I caveat what I'm about to say with a recognition that that is, that is harder, I think, than what Jesse and I are doing in co parenting. But to the reaction point, I would say a hundred percent of the time, if one of us uses consequences, we can look at the other person. The other person is like, what did you just do? [00:13:14] Speaker C: Right. Because you're just dysregulated and you just [00:13:17] Speaker D: like lost your mind for a minute. [00:13:18] Speaker C: Flapped out of the threat. [00:13:20] Speaker D: Yeah. And the other person is usually not there too. Or I, I would say has never. Yeah. Been there emotionally too. And you can just see it's like, oh man. Like we're on, we are on the same team no matter what. I have to be. It is like he just hit the [00:13:34] Speaker A: nuclear code and I was still in negotiations. [00:13:37] Speaker D: Like, I didn't, I wasn't planning to lose. And I find myself on the losing side because you know. Well, and this is all hypothetical me. Me talking because Jesse never does this. So if Jesse goes nuclear, then it's like, oh, oh, okay. Yep, we're doing that. Do you know what I mean? And like it's always, it's always like even in the moment, just like that silent look, you know, like you're like, I hope my Kids don't see this look on my face. I'm trying to communicate with like this tiniest movement in my eyeball, but it's like, what are you doing? What have you just done? And it's because it's the reaction. And I think really to the point of suffering. I think when we react with a consequence, instead of choosing a consequence, it's because, well, for me, I'll say it in these terms. It's because I want the child to be suffering as much as I feel like they're quote, unquote making me suffer. The consequence extends the suffering for both of us. Right. Because whatever, whatever the follow up is, it's not just like in the moment we've experienced disruption and we're not connected with each other anymore, but it's also whatever, you know, if it's. The child used the phone in a way that didn't like. So I'm taking the phone away for, you know, and it's like a time, whatever the time limit is on the consequence, which is usually not an hour. Right. It's like a day, it's a week, it's a month. Like, that just extends the suffering even longer. Which, you know, after I've cooled down and after I've gotten over that initial reaction, I'm like, oh, you know, not only is Jesse thinking, what has Nick done? Now I'm thinking, what has Nick done? [00:15:15] Speaker C: What have I done? [00:15:16] Speaker A: Yeah, Tana, you have. You and Nick share some, you and Nick, you and Mo share sometimes a story about what happened in your home when you started changing things up. And I really love that story because it highlights the way things short circuit. You didn't see it until you started trying to change things. Would you share that with our listeners? [00:15:40] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, we started thinking about consequences differently midstream. We didn't have a playbook pre parenting for how we were gonna approach consequences in a connected way. The parenting modality that we were coming from and the culture that we were beginning to parent in, it was, you know, obey the first time with a happy heart. Do it. Because I said so, you know, yesterday. Kind of just very struct, very sort of quick demand parenting. And so that's what we were doing. And we thought we were parenting our kids in a way that was going to benefit them, really, to your point, Nick, like, this is the way the real world works and you need to be able to comply to authority. And so we're the ones that have to teach you that. And we were just a very, very heavy handed, low Grace Low. Like, there was no room for child development in our parenting, frankly. So when we started trying to change our patterns of engagement, that's what I would say. The way that we engage with our children is a pattern of engagement. They're used to it. You're used to it. Even if it's not working, it's this unspoken pattern. And when you're trying to make a change, you're, like, disrupting the pattern, and it can be disruptive. So even if you're trying to change something in a positive way, if you hear this, you're like, hey, I want to rethink the way I'm using consequences. And if you use them a lot, it's going to unsettle your children. So we started trying something new. And I remember when I was like, okay, and y', all, it feels so clunky to learn and try something new. It feels so clunky when it's not your normal way of acting, behaving, parenting, et cetera. So we were trying this new way, and I remember telling one of our kids, hey, I mean, I'm gonna. I'm gonna try to remember. It might have been like, hey, it's time to brush teeth, right? And so I was like, hey, let's get ready for bed. It's time to brush teeth. And they probably, you know, got a little obstinate. They didn't want to, you know, I don't want to do that right now, or whatever, you know, come on, let's go brush teeth. And they literally looked at me, and they were like, or what? And I was like, oh. I mean, it just took my breath away, because the day before, when I was still using consequences as my first round of defense, my sentence probably would have been like, hey, guys, it's time to brush teeth. I've said it a couple of times. If you don't brush your teeth, you're going to have to go to bed early for the next three nights. I would have been using sort of this threat consequence as a motivator. Like, consequences were my motivation. They were how I got things done. They were how I managed a complex, complicated house. And I suddenly wasn't saying any kind of a threat. It was just, it's time to brush teeth. And the kids said, or what? And I was like, oh, my gosh. This is a pattern of engagement I have put in motion. I need to take responsibility for this way that we're talking. And I said, you know what, Bob? There is no or what. There is no or what. Like, we're just going to work together until we get things done and we get to bed. [00:18:57] Speaker D: Or what? [00:18:59] Speaker C: There is no or what the. Or what is. It's time to go to bed. And I felt disarmed. I was like, I think I'm supposed to set this tool down. I don't think I'm supposed to do this thing anymore. But I have absolutely no idea what to do. Instead I stuck it out. I'm sure we had a meltdown. Like, I don't even remember because I think that my whole brain hit like a massive, like halting screech when my kid reflected back to me. Or what? Because it showed me our pattern of engagement. So I don't know what are yalls thoughts about that. [00:19:33] Speaker A: I mean, I just love that story because I think it highlights we are we, whether we realize it or not, when we rely on a kind of threat consequence to motivate action. And let's. Let's be honest for a second. Sometimes the way our kids brains work, like the urgency of a decision or motivating an action seems to work. It's like they won't do it unless there is urgency or, you know, there's some type of something hanging over them. I think what it reveals is unrealizing. You taught your kids that they had a choice to do something or not do something. [00:20:18] Speaker C: Correct. [00:20:19] Speaker A: And they were opting out. They believed they had the option to opt out. So when we think that consequences is actually teaching kids the real world, it's actually teaching them a fixed mindset of like, nope, I can't. I won't opt out. Which I. I don't think we realize that's what consequences end up doing. Is it? [00:20:42] Speaker C: Is. I sure didn't. [00:20:43] Speaker A: Right. What, what do you say to this, Nick? [00:20:49] Speaker D: I say I agree. [00:20:52] Speaker A: Your face looked like you were thinking. And I was like, he's got something good to have. [00:20:56] Speaker D: Where is Nick's brain and is it connected to his mouth? I'm thinking like, so I think what's. What's behind. I think what's behind all this is a. Is a normal desire from parents to protect their children from their own mistakes. Right. It's like. And especially like that. Well, this is how it works in the real world. Right. What's behind that, I think is I would say in some cases it could be a healthy fear of what will happen when my child is out there on their own and I'm not there and they make a mistake. And so we want to consequence it now so we can iron the mistake out of their life. And prevent them from making that when it really matters. [00:21:48] Speaker A: This one consequence we lay down will teach them never to do that for the rest of their lives. [00:21:53] Speaker D: Well, but I mean, that's the pattern of consequencing is like, if I do this enough, then my child will be, then my child will just stop. They'll be too afraid to do this and then it won't cause them a problem in the future. I mean, again, at just the baseline, we can't protect our children from their mistakes. They're just going to make them. And so, so will we. And, and so will we as parents. Yeah, for sure. And I think, when I think of, when I think about consequences in the framework of mistakes and when I think about my children in the future, I mean, as much, obviously as much as we can, we want our parenting to be present and we don't want the future to dictate too much of what we do. But if we're future casting, what is the best case for our children? What I want is I want my kids to become adults who make really good mistakes and who aren't afraid to make mistakes. Right. Like, I like when I think about the people that I like working with the best in the real world, you know, in my job, in my career, I want to hire people who know how to make mistakes. Well, you know, I don't want to hire. What I don't want to hire is someone who has been consequenced as a child and then, and then believes they don't make mistakes and doesn't know how to respond when they do make a mistake. What I want is someone who can say, you know what, like pretty quickly, like, you know what that was wrong and like apologize for it or, or own it or say, you know, I didn't like the way that that worked and to go to their boss or to go to their co worker and be like, can someone help me understand how to do this better? Right. And those are skills that are learned from parents who don't over rely on consequences. [00:23:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:42] Speaker D: And that's, and so like that's, that's the great irony I think, is if we think about this in the framework of mistakes, we want to help our children make really good mistakes. We want them to learn how to be good mistake makers. And consequences, again, prevents that from happening because it's just like, well, don't do it. [00:23:59] Speaker A: I'm also thinking the consequence of consequencing that when that child is an adult, you know, you talked about you don't want them to make the right choice because they're afraid of making the wrong choice or you don't want them not to be able to handle. Not to be able to handle their mistakes. I also, I mean, we're raising young women, we have two daughters. And I want them to be able to speak up for what they feel passionate about and what they care about. I want them to be able to disagree with people. And I think often women are taught not to disagree. And maybe it starts in our homes. Right. [00:24:44] Speaker D: For the record, we both want that. [00:24:46] Speaker A: We. Yes. I'm sorry. Nick hates it when I talk about my kids. [00:24:49] Speaker D: I can't speak for Nick. [00:24:50] Speaker C: He's like, yes, please, me too. [00:24:52] Speaker A: Kids, we want that. Right, but what does that mean if you reverse it all the way? It means, do our kids get to disagree with us sometimes? And if they disagree, how can they do that respectfully? That's part of what we have the opportunity to teach. If your kids don't agree that they should brush their teeth, they may still have to. But is there a healthy way to use their voice and then move forward with what they have to do? Like, I think I want to say this. When we are talking about avoiding consequences as the first line of action, what we are not avoiding is friction. What we are not avoiding is the ability to sit with our kids in their discomfort of the thing that they're being made to do. We're not trying to save our kids from brushing their teeth or cleaning their rooms or talking respectfully to adults. What we are doing is scaffolding away to work together, to teach them how to do the things they have to do and to use their voice along the way. Like to me, those are the skills. To us, maybe I would say those are the skills that are important in raising a future adult. What do you think? [00:26:20] Speaker C: I'm hearing a through line which is in that, in that pause moment. In that moment, I think about like, let's say a misbehavior or a task or a need is sort of the stimulus. Something happens, something is set in motion. If we are reactive with our heavy handed punishment, threats, punitive behavior, it does short circuit that moment of growth, negotiation, discomfort, emotion, opportunity. And that's actually where skills are built. I don't know about y', all, but when things are going real smooth, I'm not growing very much. I'm not building my own skill set. I'm just going along for the ride. When there is friction and tension, I don't like something, Something isn't going well. I'm disappointed. I Want something to change, then, then there's a moment for growth. So if you go straight to a consequence, curiosity, short circuited, teaching them how to ask for compromises, negotiate, you know, collaborate, it's gone. There's all the good stuff. The stuff that I think we really, if we can slow down to your point, Nick, and like, do it. There's so much good there. [00:27:46] Speaker A: I'm gonna tell on myself because even as you're saying that, I'm like, how many times do, do I default to that because I don't wanna be uncomfortable, because I don't want the friction, because I don't wanna have to face their, you know, meltdown, whatever it is. [00:28:05] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:28:06] Speaker A: And so I'm trying to short circuit that for myself, not even for them. It kind of reminds me of what Nick's talking about, like trying to limit his own suffering. You know, we, we have a part that we're playing in that. Right. For lots of different reasons. It's probably not just one. You're not going to be surprised to hear me say that. [00:28:27] Speaker D: Yeah. So I, I mean, you could say that consequencing extends suffering, but choosing something other than a consequence doesn't mean that the suffering ends immediately. There's still discomfort. [00:28:39] Speaker A: There's still maybe, let's say that, yeah, [00:28:40] Speaker D: there's still heart and discomfort. Yeah, there are still hard things to do. We're not saying it's easy. Okay, great. We have a non, non verbal cue that is okay for me to share this story. So the. So we have, we have made a lot of mistakes as parents and we are on this parenting journey. And much as Tana described in, in, in their house, in our house, we have also, you know, had to figure out what our relationship is as parents and as a family to consequences. One of our children was comparing notes with friends at school about what consequences look like in their house. And she shared the story with us that her friends were all aghast that, yeah, I did use that word. And I would have used that word. That's not performative vocabulary. [00:29:35] Speaker C: That's just, this is just the way you talk. [00:29:37] Speaker D: I'm really sorry, everybody. I'm. At least now I'm aware that I'm doing it. [00:29:40] Speaker A: It. [00:29:41] Speaker D: But yes, aghast is the word that I would use that her consequence. And, and this is, this is a recent, this is a recent conversation. So this has not always been true in our house, but this is true in our house now that her consequences. When she makes a mistake, she has to talk about it with her parents. And her friends are like, what? How is that a consequence? And to her credit, she's like, you don't understand. I have to talk about it for a long time. We have to, like, deconstruct the decision and, like, really walk through, like, okay, what were. Like, what were you thinking? Like, how did you think this would happen? And here's how we feel about it. And how do you feel about it? And what feelings were behind that? And, like, what was happening? Like. And that feels like a consequence. But to us, to her parents, that's learning, right? So that's her friends. [00:30:34] Speaker A: It was nothing. And so it was hilarious to hear her relay this because she. [00:30:41] Speaker C: What's on their list of consequences? [00:30:43] Speaker A: Yeah, she was defending that she gets punished, and here's how. And they were like, that's not a punishment. And she was like, yes, it is. [00:30:52] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:30:52] Speaker A: And here's why. [00:30:54] Speaker D: Because. Because to what we were talking about, like, the discomfort, like, it's not over until we feel like we, like the three of us, that mom, dad, child, have learned, right? And have, like, understood the choice that was made and understood moving forward. Like, when that scenario or if that scenario happens again, what other options are available to you? And. And also, like, what. What is that behavior, communicating, if you're not able to make, you know, if you're not able to learn from this mistake, what is that communicating to us? And, like, that's where. And, you know, that's when the conversation gets into maybe what really feels like a consequence in our house, which is, like, if you're having trouble learning, then we have to figure out how to simplify the situation. Right. We may have to, like, unscath. We may have to take the scaffolding down until, you know, we've. We've shown that, you know, over time that we have the ability to make the good decision that leads to the good decision that we're having trouble making now. Right. So, like, it. Again, the discomfort continues, but for us, it's like, how can we teach our children to make good mistakes? And part of that is understanding how to learn from their mistakes, understanding how to really, like, sit down and think, like, okay, why did I do that? That's what I need to do in my life when I make a mistake. Why did I do that? What was I feeling? What could I have done differently? Would I do that? [00:32:16] Speaker C: Let me give a practical example of that, Nick, because I don't know what the situation was in your own house, but let me give a. Maybe this is kind of what you're saying. And tell me if I'm hitting it. It would be something like maybe a child has been given access to a technology, a device, and there's certain parameters at which they understand they need to use that device. And if they are misusing it, right, they're looking at something they're not supposed to, or they've downloaded an app that's off limits or you know, there's any number of things that could be happening. First step is to pull child close, right. And be like, let's talk about why you wanted that, did that, did it without asking what was going on in you. I mean, I think a lot about how we would get really curious about. What are you avoiding? Why are you wanting to fall into the app? What's is something going on? What are you trying to escape? What are you not coping with? I mean for guys, for a teenager, this is punishment. Like making them process what they are escaping from is a form of torture in and of itself. So you're asking them to name their inner world. [00:33:21] Speaker A: We have a lawyer in our home who would argue your argument. Yes. [00:33:26] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So you're gonna go dive deep. You're practicing curiosity, you're pulling them closed. It's kind of not over till it's over. And then maybe you repair and you're like, thank you for that. Let's again, maybe you give the freedom back. And to your point Nick, it doesn't go well again, then maybe we decide this is not something that you can manage right now in this moment for all the reasons we have discussed. So we're going to pull back on the use of that technology. That is a very different interaction with the tween and teen than going straight to the threatening a consequence, very punitive punishment mindset of removing the device. It's just a different posture. And then the child is working, they're having to ask themselves. I'm not saying they always will. But there is a self acknowledgment that my parents aren't doing this to me, we are trying to help me move forward. That is a very different parent child posture consequences of often put us in a combative. Somebody's going to win, somebody's going to lose. This other thing is mom, dad, caregiver, auntie, grandma, whoever is here to help you be successful. Is that. Tell me more, am I hitting that right? Can you all think of other examples to sort of help the listeners understand like what's this mean in real time? [00:35:00] Speaker A: Well, I'm thinking a couple of things. One is, I mean parents, we are not robots. So some of what happens and we've talked about, sometimes we react with consequences. And part of that is just it's kind of coming out of our mouths because our feelings are coming out of our mouths. And so I'm thinking about some of the things that we've had to set limits on and be thoughtful about. Like, sometimes Nick and I have a conversation before we have a conversation with that kid. In fact, I would say we often do. And that will include, I feel. So fill in the blank about this and here's why. And like, we. [00:35:38] Speaker C: Some of those things would be scared, frustrated, hurt. You know, there's a million things. [00:35:43] Speaker A: I'm worried that if we don't fill in the blank that this is going to happen. Or, you know, we. We can hold that with each other, right? Or maybe I would call a friend, maybe I would call Tana and talk about that if I didn't have Nick with me. You know, it's like that does get to be part of the process. I don't want to say, like, you don't get to feel. You don't get to think. The other thing that is often going to happen in a conversation, either together or just, you know, as I'm interacting with the kid is I'm going to be thinking, what does this kid need? What do they need? I might know what they want. They want access to that app, or they want longer screen time, or they want, you know, they don't want to brush their teeth, they want to keep playing this video game, whatever it is. But what do they need? And often my first answer isn't the actual answer. So to give an example, you know, let's say you've got a kiddo who is sneaking something. It could be food, it could be a device, it could be whatever. But often we'll focus on like, oh, am I not giving them enough food during the day? Or am I not giving them really what it comes down to? If you dig underneath all of it, it's like, I. What they need is to be able to ask for permission. And for some reason, that's not happening. So how can I scaffold that? How can I scaffold getting my kid to trust me enough to ask me for what they want? Like, do you hear what I'm saying? Like, often it'll be like, the thing you think they need. Keep going. Because there's probably a relationship thing or a life skill beyond that. That is more important. [00:37:46] Speaker C: Yeah, go ahead, go for it. [00:37:48] Speaker A: No, I was just going to give a different Example. So I don't want to hijack us. [00:37:52] Speaker C: Let me frame this up. And then if you have some more examples, let's do it. But I think. Let me frame up. I think we're making a distinction. And one of the things we talk about here at Etc. Is the difference between a punishment mindset and a loving limit mindset. And we're kind of dancing around that right now. And I just want to put like a real fine point on it for our listeners. When you use a punishment mindset, that is what we are talking about. That's that consequences. It's the end of the rope. It's, you know, they need to behave. Maybe the kids are scared of getting in trouble. You know, it's you. The caregiver thinks discipline means to punish. You know, that's kind of the punishment mindset. And then there is the loving limits mindset, which is an understanding that children need developmentally appropriate boundaries and limits. They do. Like this parenting is not a free for all, no boundary. That's not what we're advocating for at all. We're advocating for loving limits that respect the child and their developmental space, their needs and what is unique to them. And we are responding to that. And we're responding in a way that sets an appropriate boundary that has this underlying. I believe my children are doing the best they can, and I want to help skills grow. I want to help them understand themselves more. So we may have to put in a boundary, remove something, set a limit, because they can't handle it yet. And we want to help them get to the point when they could handle it in a responsible way. What are yalls thoughts about that or something else coming up for you? [00:39:41] Speaker D: I think that's. I think that's a great framework to consider this. And I would say one of the dynamics that's at play between those two mindsets is about power, right? There's power dynamics at play and consequences. There's power dynamics within the loving limits mindset and within the punishment mindset. And the irony is that the punishment mindset, the parent claims all of the power, right? So what we really want, if we go. If we go all the way, I mean, this is. This is hypothetical. Let's go all the way. With the punishment mindset, what you really want is to have the ability to control everything that your child does. You know, if my kid would just behave with that. What we really mean when we say that, I think if we're honest, is I just want my child to do exactly what I want my child to Do. And the problem is that this child has a mind of their own and. Right. And sarcastically, like, how dare they? Like, if they would just have my mind and all of my wisdom and experience, their life would be perfect. Which of course isn't true. Right. But the. So the irony there is that we hold all of the power and we expect our children to align with how we desire to use our power over their lives. The Loving Limits mindset does not do that. Right. There's still a power dynamic at play, but it's actually more powerful because it is. It is this idea that, like, as the authority figures, we have the power now. I feel like he man. [00:41:12] Speaker C: That's right. [00:41:13] Speaker D: I have the power. Right? We have power, but we're sharing. Thank you. I look like he man, by the way. For those who've never seen me before, let's just go with that mental. [00:41:21] Speaker C: I mean, exactly. [00:41:23] Speaker D: Flowing hair, always shirtless, carries a sword. But the. The power dynamic there isn't holding the power, it's sharing the power. Right? Because. Because again, with this, like, future orientation, one day our children will be in the real world. They will have, like, you know, they will have power. They will be independent adults. They will move into the world, and they will be fully responsible for their choices. If the Loving Limits allows us to share power in ways that is developmentally responsible. Right. Based on what the child is currently capable of. And that requires a conversation, that requires a dialogue, you know, where the words or the behaviors are communicating to the parent. Here's what the child is saying with words or actions. Here's what I'm capable of. Right? And then us as the power holders can share appropriate power to give them a little bit more freedom, a little bit more independent. Say, okay, let's practice with this. Let's see how we can do, you know, as a kindergartner going to school. Right? Like, beginning to learn respecting other adults. [00:42:27] Speaker A: Right. [00:42:28] Speaker D: If you've been in the house and now you have a teacher, like, how do you respond to your teacher? Beginning to learn social dynamics and responding to peers and learning to share. Like, those are all things that can be taught in the home. If we share power with our children, if we're always thinking that the child just needs to do what I want, then when they go out, they don't know how to do that stuff. Right. It's much harder for them to make those choices if they've never practiced and they can't practice unless we're willing to share. [00:42:57] Speaker A: I think this happens in different ways at different ages and Stages. So you hear us, Nick and I are parenting a 12 and 16 year old right now. There is a lot that we get to do now because we've parented this way for a while and we get to talk about these things openly with our kids. We get to say, hey, when you do this, it communicates to me this, that you can't handle X, Y or Z. Or that you that or that you don't trust me. Or that, you know, we talk openly like that with our kids now that they are getting older. When our kids were younger, obviously we didn't have the whole sit down, talk through these things. We were doing that with each other. We were doing that within ourselves and deciding what can my kid handle in this moment? What is needed? What do I need to teach my kiddo? And so, you know, there are times when your kid won't stop putting, you know, I'm just gonna age us now. Like they won't stop putting their hand in the DVD player. And people are like, what is that? [00:44:09] Speaker C: What's this dvd? Literally we just talked about like, where [00:44:12] Speaker A: do you buy one of these these days? We do not know. [00:44:14] Speaker C: You mean in the VHS player, Jesse? [00:44:16] Speaker A: Not the, in the VHS player. Yeah, I almost said it. [00:44:20] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:44:21] Speaker A: You know, there are times when you just move that, right? Like we're not saying every single time you sit down with the two year old and you say you're teaching me that you can't handle. You know, there are times when we just move it to a higher shelf. There's times when we have the short script or we, you know, do the redirection. There are, there are other things we can use. There's a lot of playful interaction in our redirection. Even still, you know, we don't have to have some big long conversation about disrespect. If the teenager came down and hasn't, you know, just woke up five minutes ago at 11:55am you know, like it's hypothetically. [00:45:04] Speaker C: Hypothetically they haven't had their teenage version of coffee like an Alani or something [00:45:08] Speaker A: to wake up, give them a, like, give them a minute and we can playfully read her. Like that still all happens in our home. But we're talking about the repeated things, right? So those, I think what's beautiful now is the long term of that is instead of, instead of, for the most part kids doing those things anyways or sneaking them behind our backs, they're advocating for themselves. We have kids who come to us and say I want this and here's why. And Here are all the reasons I think that this would be responsible. To let me do this or to let me have this or to change this. And that is a really cool thing. [00:45:52] Speaker D: That's learning, right? That's showing them that long conversation that felt like a consequence actually did something. [00:45:59] Speaker A: They've learned how to advocate for themselves and think about what they want and [00:46:04] Speaker D: need, and they've learned that they can have. That they can go to their parents and voice their wants and needs, or [00:46:10] Speaker A: even if it's something we're doing that they don't like. They think their bedtime's too early, or they think they should be able to do something their friends do to be able to talk about that respectfully with us. That is a gift. That's a gift that they've been given for their whole, entire rest of their lives. Like, I hope that they get to do that in their friendships and romantic relationships and with their employers. That's what we want. I don't just want to raise people pleasers that do what the other person tells them to do for their whole live long lives. [00:46:47] Speaker C: Okay, I have a question. As we're thinking about all these big ideas, if we have listeners who are processing maybe their own relationship to consequences, right? Maybe they're like, oh, maybe this is the tool I pull out most often. And I'm quick to grab what would be, like, one small shift that you would recommend them make, whether that's something in their own mindset or is there a script or a phrase like, how would you recommend they start practicing a new way of engagement with their kids? And I think this obviously would depend on the age, but just what. What comes out for you? [00:47:33] Speaker D: Man, That's a great question. I'm not sure I'm entirely thrilled with my answer, but I will start. [00:47:43] Speaker A: You need some time to think about it? [00:47:45] Speaker C: Okay, yeah, just start processing it out loud. We'll probably get us kick started. [00:47:49] Speaker A: You know, Nick hates processing out loud, so thank you for doing it. [00:47:52] Speaker C: I would like to have a fully formed, very thoughtful response. Come on. [00:47:56] Speaker D: If this was my podcast, we would sit here for 10 minutes in silence and just think our thoughts. [00:48:00] Speaker C: Then we would edit that out. Think our thoughts. We would think our thoughts. [00:48:03] Speaker D: No, no, no. In next podcast. That is the point. It's just 10 minutes of silence. And you're welcome. We all. We all need that. [00:48:10] Speaker A: People are like, where can I hit subscribe on that? I am in. [00:48:13] Speaker D: Yeah, it's a noisy world. Silence is good. I think. I think I would just start with, like, an intention, like, to Set, set yourself a goal. Like, see if you can get, you know, a week without using a consequence. Like just kind of, you know, like I would say set, set an intention, articulate it with an adult. Not like, don't tell your children, but, you know, like with an adult, be like, hey, I'm committing. I feel like I'm overusing this. I just, I want to see if I can get through this week without using a consequence and see what that feels like. And see, see what else is there for you. See what else you have access to. See if, if that opens up to you. Just knowing, like, I'm not, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that this time. I would say that that's one option. I. And I think similar to that, another option is just to, if, if you can look back at patterns of behavior that provoke a strong response in you that you tend to consequence, you know, then do some exploration, you know, with yourself, like, why? Why do I do that? And then rather than waiting for that to happen again and then react again like you always have, you know, you have to kind of break that pattern. So if, if it helps decide now outside of the moment, what you think, the appropriate consequences, you know, if you're in a hard season with your child, you're like, this keeps happening. And maybe you have tried other things, maybe you haven't. Maybe you have. And you're like, I just don't know what else to do. Then sit down and think like, okay, what's the limit that I want to place on this behavior or in this season of life and pick it now so that you don't have to pick a battle when it happens, but you can just be prepared and be like, ah, okay, I'm prepared for this. And you have a reasoned, proactive plan for how you're going to respond to that behavior rather than a reaction that increases or extends your suffering. [00:50:19] Speaker A: I don't know if this would even be possible, but I would even advocate for that being a conversation with your child outside of the moment before that behavior happens again. Hey, this has been happening. I don't like it because of this reason. I would like this to happen instead. And so what do you think is fair if this happens again? I mean, it could even be, all right, so this is going to lead into mine. I think as a true ETC team member, I'm going to recommend. If you are like, what would I do instead? Like, there's nothing there. Then I would point you to our module on collaboration and cultivate connection. We have that available on demand. And so you have to work your way through the modules. But once you get to that, that module on collaboration, we are talking about what to do instead of setting consequences as your first line of defense. I would also say in our connecting practices handbook, you can look at how to give voice, and there are some really great ideas on how, how, how to give choices, how to give compromises. And that is what we would advocate for kind of layering in some strategies like that before going to, you know, a consequence that, that you set up. Let me make it even more simple. I, if you are like, I really don't know how I would change this. I need like one teeny tiny step. I would ask myself, how can I get their cooperation? Because if, if you're trying to get your kid to do something or to stop doing something, what you're really needing is their cooperation. And there are lots of ways you can gain cooperation from a kid. Punishing them is probably not the most effective way to gain cooperation. And so what will it be? Will, will you get down on their eye level? Will you be playful with them? Is, has it escalated beyond that? Will you be firm? But, but try and make some type of connection? Will you need to calm them down first because they're dysregulated? How can I gain their cooperation? That's the question that I would ask myself. [00:52:45] Speaker D: I've got another one. See, I did need that time idea machine. That time. Yeah, this one's better. This one's better. Disregard what I said earlier. Just kidding. Okay, so here, so this question has been asked to me as Tana has posed it. And here's what I would say. I would say, start looking for things you like about your child and telling them. Because I think again, with, with, in general, with the consequences. We're talking about mistakes. Nobody likes making mistakes. Everybody generally feels bad when they make a mistake. You know, like we're not actively going around. I didn't wake up today and say, how many mistakes can I make? How much disruption can I cause in the world around me? How much can I make this, you know, this parent who cares for me, you know, angry or, you know, you know what I mean? Like, I just, I think in general, it's safe to say our children are not trying to make mistakes. And I do think whether, you know, if they have high emotional intelligence, they can communicate pretty quickly. I feel shame about that. But most often, like, when they've made a mistake and you experience disruption and things spiral and get bigger and worse, that's also them telling you that I feel bad about this. And so I would say what I don't want my children to think. [00:54:14] Speaker A: Our children? You don't want our children? [00:54:16] Speaker D: Oh, I meant to tell you. [00:54:17] Speaker B: I have. [00:54:17] Speaker D: I have my own children killing me. Oh, my gosh. You know what? [00:54:22] Speaker A: I'm sorry. [00:54:24] Speaker C: Still doing in the Ferris house. Both Nick and Jesse. [00:54:28] Speaker D: Jesse does this so often. And I correct her and she got me. [00:54:30] Speaker C: I really recorded. [00:54:33] Speaker A: I hope that's everyone's takeaway today. [00:54:34] Speaker D: I can't believe I did that. I want our children, when they leave this house, to look back and not remember the consequences. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want them to look back on their childhood, on their time in our house, under our parenting, and for the big thing to stand out is all of the consequences and all the fear and all the mistakes and all the shame. Like, what a tragedy that would be. Be. So can I try and, like, put down the consequences? Yes, but you have to replace it with something. And what I really want my children to feel about growing up in our house is that they were so deeply loved, right? When they made mistakes and when they didn't make mistakes, I mean, that's the biggest thing. Like, if our. If our love to our children is conditional, that's the greatest mistake we can make. And so I want to express with my words, with my behaviors, with my actions, with my posture, with my presence to my children, my unconditional love for them. And if I am pouring my unconditional love into their lives, then the consequence thing becomes much smaller, you know? And then, like, when they make those mistakes, like, their posture towards me is already conditioned by my posture towards them. And if I'm pouring in, like, here's the good I see in you. Here's the great things that you did today. Here's what makes you special and beautiful and unique and strong and wonderful if that is the environment that they're growing up in. Like, I think consequences just gets much smaller for everyone. So I would say start there. Like, instead of looking for, like, when my child does something wrong, what am I going to do? Start looking at what are all the things my child is doing right? And how can I praise that and recognize that? And I think this whole con, I think the pressure behind the consequence conversation, I think it just goes away, right? Because then we're just operating in this beautiful space of, like, I see you, you see me, you are wonderful. We are connected. And then when the mistakes happen, we have so much of reserve of love to Work out of that. The hard part I think doesn't go away, but I think it gets much, much smaller. [00:57:02] Speaker C: Well, I love that. I hear cherish and celebrate and I hear look for ways to collaborate and something that is sort of going through my mind. I'm giggling. Jesse, that you talked about having a module in our parenting course, cultivate connection. Because I mean so many parents and caregivers come to us, they come to those courses and those times out of desperation. Nick, I'm hearing something in you. I hear a softening of like there's so much love and care. Like if mom, dad, grandma, auntie, your trying your best and you're struggling. Like it's, it's, we see you in that you're also doing your very best. But oftentimes they come to us and it's because they need something to change. And then we as an organization we're like, how are we going to give parents a replacement strategy for consequences? Right? Meaning it is you can't just stop doing them. You have to have something else to fill in that space. Nick, you articulated it. You need the cherish, the love, the connection, the affirmation, the positive. Jesse, you named it. You got to collaborate. You've got to figure out how to move forward. You have to figure out how to meet each other. It took us 18 hours of lessons to give you other strategies to replace it because this is complicated. [00:58:35] Speaker A: Yes. [00:58:36] Speaker C: Our cultivate connection parenting course is 18 modules which is like 18 hours of discovery and talking about stuff. Because this is not a simple thing that we are talking about right now on this podcast episode. It's nuanced, it's complex, it takes a lot of rewiring for ourselves. It takes a lot of like self love and care. We have to practice a lot of self compassion. If you are coming to this episode and you have been a quick to punish, heavy handed, punitive based parent, welcome. Me too. You can change like you can change, your children can change. There is a different way. It is not a one and done. It takes a lot of practice and a lot of intention. So my point, small shift recommendation is don't expect this to come easy. So I like that lavish, encourage praise, collaborate and be curious with yourself. I wonder why I am responding this way. What is being activated in me? What am I scared of? What am I scared of doing differently? Is there fear that I'm operating out of? I wonder where that's coming from because I really do believe most parents, not all, most parents are coming to parenting with the best of intentions. Their intentions are pure and good and we want what's best for our kids. But we may not have been given a toolkit or practice the tools that are going to help us get where we want to go. Closing thoughts. What's on yalls minds as we sort of wrap up. [01:00:29] Speaker A: I appreciate that you. I think we would say all three of us, amen and amen to the complexity. And I hope that you, listener, don't hear us saying, well, all you have to do is the one thing. No, it's, it's. It's so many layers and more than what we've said. [01:00:52] Speaker C: Jesse, let me just piggyback that real quick. We don't talk about consequences on the podcast very often because of this reason right here. [01:00:58] Speaker A: Yeah, it's hard. [01:00:59] Speaker C: It's real hard to like kind of wrap it up in a 45 minute to an hour long episode without thinking we might be doing a disservice. So sorry to interrupt, but that, that's simply true. [01:01:10] Speaker A: No, that's what it is. [01:01:11] Speaker C: It's very complex. [01:01:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm agreeing with that wholeheartedly. [01:01:15] Speaker D: And you guys invited me for the hard one. [01:01:18] Speaker C: Yeah, we did. I mean, seriously, Nick, I was like, I want, we want to talk to Nick about this. [01:01:22] Speaker A: Bring in Nick for this one. [01:01:24] Speaker C: And you know what we should have said, hey guys, we're gonna think about consequences because this is the Nick podcast and we're gonna be quiet with our thoughts for 10 minutes. Thank coming. [01:01:33] Speaker A: You can turn this off, friends, and think for 10 minutes. Something Nick said earlier is just resonating with me still. It's bouncing around in my mind and especially as we talk about how complex this is and how much practice it's taken us to rewire, even starting this way. Nick and I started out with etc principles and there was so much just that was part of us and part of our histories and part of our own mindsets that we had to rewire and relearn. And it has taken. It takes practice. It's still taking practice that I want to say. Nick said that we are training our kids to make good mistakes. You get, you get to make good mistakes too. And when I say that, I mean like, like, we make mistakes every day. I know you do too, Tana. Like, we laugh about em, we talk about em, we cry about em. But don't be a person who's making ignorant mistakes. Don't be the person that's making the thoughtless mistake because you didn't explore anything different. We believe that when people know better, they have the opportunity to do better. And you get to make some good mistakes now. So it's better to try, right? It's better to try and make some changes and make some good mistakes along the way than to just keep on keeping on because you're too scared to change. [01:03:05] Speaker C: I would just quote the good Dr. Cross. It's better to err and repair than never to have erred at all. Let's make some good mistakes as we fumble along trying new things. I love that. [01:03:19] Speaker D: And I would say, just as a word of encouragement for parents and in the same way that I was trying to help us reclaim the preciousness of our children. And in that sense, you, too, as a parent, are precious. And I think I was thinking as Tom was talking, especially for those who are maybe feeling some guilt and some shame about consequences, this too, like, let's get meta. This, too is an opportunity for learning. And I think the only way that we can teach our children anything is if it's a lesson that we have learned first. So you cannot find the preciousness in your children or show your children how precious they are. If you can't also see that in yourself, Our kids will see through that. If you don't offer yourself the same thing that you offer them, they will question what you have to offer. And so I think the danger of consequences is losing our preciousness, the preciousness of our children, but also what makes you as a parent wonderful and special and strong and unique. So I would say give yourself in the way that you treat yourself. Try to avoid consequences. Right? Don't be harsh with. Don't be too harsh with yourself. Don't. Don't lose sight of your own preciousness in your parenting journey. Because I think if. If we have that for ourselves, then we can offer that to our children. And at the end of the day, what else is there? [01:05:05] Speaker C: At the end of the day, what else is there? Thank y' all for coming on and talking about this. I. I appreciate our ability to hold this with nuance and care and thinking about how to support one another's growth as we're really and truly trying to help our kiddos grow. And I appreciate y', all, so thanks for joining us. For listeners, I hope this has been helpful. Maybe a bit thought provoking. If you're feeling a little bit twisty in your mind as you're trying to sort of make sense of it, I would say hit rewind and listen a couple more times and see what new things jump out to you. And we do have resources to help you replace maybe that quick that quick move to a consequence and we want to think about loving limits and and the dance of those as we build relationship and connection. So thank you guys for joining us and until next time, [01:06:03] Speaker B: We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, the best way to support us going forward is to subscribe. We'd love to hear from you, leave a review, drop us a comment, or email us to let us know what you hope to hear in future episodes. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at etc, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empower to Connect podcast. Until then, we're holding on to hope with you.