[E242] Torn From the Root: Rhonda Roorda on Honoring the Voice Within

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Empowered to Connect podcast where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families and our communities. I'm here with a special guest today, Rhonda Rorda, and I'm so honored to be able to talk with her. Welcome to the podcast, Rhonda. [00:00:28] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Jesse, for having me. It's an honor. [00:00:32] Speaker A: Rhonda, you don't know this, but I'm going to share it with you as an adoptive mom. When my husband and I were preparing for our very first adoption, which was to be a transracial adoption internationally, we spent about a year just educating ourselves and we had a lot to learn and we had a lot more to learn after our child came home to our family. But In Their Own Voices was a formative book for us and it was written. Co written by Rhonda. And I'd love for you to just share a little bit about who you are, the work you've been doing, and kind of what brings you to this moment now as we're getting ready to talk about your memoir. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Great. Again, thanks for having me. Yes. So as a black transracial adoptee who was voluntarily placed into the New York foster care system by my mama and subsequently lived with a foster family for the first two years of my life, and then was moved, pulled from that home to my adoptive placement, which was a white, in a white evangelical family, when I made these moves, I, they were very, they were very painful moves. I think that I tried to deal with the pain and the trauma by suppressing the feelings and going immediately into survival mode. So my life has really been one where I have struggled for my identity, trying to figure out who I am, where I came from, and this practice called transracial adoption. So after I graduated from college, started my career as a deputy fund administrator for nonprofit organization, I also completed my master's degree at Michigan State University. And right when I thought I was going to take a break, that's when I heard I'm a person of faith. And I heard God telling me I had to write a book on transracial adoption. And let me tell you, it had to be a supernatural force because the last thing that I wanted to do was for me to write a book on this issue because it is incredibly bold and complex. It is, it is very hard to be able to express the incredible feelings that you have on this issue. But more than that, what happened to me is I was now navigating into the world without my white parents. So I was still in survival mode and had to figure out, how do you do this? How, how do you navigate career, the streets, community, places of worship without being under that umbrella of privilege? So of course I was like, well, God, you know, maybe you, you know, didn't see that. There's probably books in the, in Barnes and Noble or something that, that, that will address this. So. And will help me. So I went to Barnes and Noble and I'm looking at books about adoption. And that is when I was like, blown away. There was nothing that could help me. There was nothing that could tell my experience of what to do. When you are black, adopted in a white family and are now thrown out here to the wolves, what do you do? So that's when I had to say, I've got to write a book. And that's the beginning of In Their Own Voices, where I started contacting black and biracial adoptees around the country who were young adults. And I wanted to know, is there experience similar than to mine and can they help? And in that process, I read all the research on this issue, including Dr. Rita Simon's formative research, 20 years of it, and basically saying, love is enough. And this is the research, along with a dozen other pieces of research that, that supported the current federal policy on U.S. transracial adoption. And that is the 1994, we're in 2026, I want to remind everybody, 1994 Multi Ethnic Placement act, married to the 1996 Inter Ethnic Provision Act. So that was my start to my 20 year journey being a student of transracial adoption. [00:06:14] Speaker A: Wow. And I don't think I had even realized how personal it was for you until I was reading the memoir. And I loved how you talk in your book about going into Barnes and Noble and being like, where is the book I'm looking for? And realizing I've got to write that book. And that part especially moved me because I was sitting in my chair reading your memoir, talking about this book you wrote that I read 15 plus years ago, 16, 17 years ago, that changed the trajectory of my life. [00:06:53] Speaker B: Wow. I'm happy. [00:06:56] Speaker A: Well, I'm so grateful for the help and I am grateful to have you again as a guest. I know you've joined us before on the Empowered to Connect podcast. And for those listening, Rhonda has a new memoir called Torn from the Root and we want to talk about it today. I would love to just kind of listen, listen to some wisdom that you have to share from your own perspective and share with us kind of how has transracial adoption. You have highlighted so many voices that we needed to listen to. And I think it's a pleasure and honor to now listen to your voice talk about your experience. [00:07:36] Speaker B: Right. So I want your audience to understand that the memoir didn't just happen. It is based on the foundational work that I did with Dr. Rita Simon on a trilogy of landmark books where we learned about perspectives from black and biracial non adopted, I mean, black and biracial, transracial adoptees, white adoptive parents who raised these young adults, and they looked at does race matter? And then from the perspective of white non adopted siblings. And then I did a solo work which is award winning, from the perspective of black Americans, the community in which these kids are coming from. And they actually offered help to transracial adoptive families as well as adoptees, lessons that they learned in their living rooms with their family that were not shared in ours, of course, because we're not having the same conversations in white homes as. As black and brown people are having in their homes. So this was a heavy lift for me to turn to myself and torn from the roots and, and own my part in this story. And what I had realized through a lot of ruptures along the way, emotional landmines, is that I suppressed, like my white adoptive parents and many others in the career trajectory that I have been on, suppress my voice marginalized the little girl within me. And so when she was crying, when she was traumatized, when she didn't feel safe, when boundaries were not there for her, she was talking to me, she was screaming, she was begging, she was pleading, and I suppressed her voice. And again, there were ruptures that happened in my life and I had to go down back to my knees. And though I feel like I'm always on my knees. And I had to listen to her, listen, feel the pain, feel all of that. I went into intense therapy. I surrounded myself by close friends that I could trust with my life. And I had to do some work on myself that I had never done before. And in that process, I gained the trust of the little girl inside of me. So I made promises to her. I made promises that I would hear her voice, that she mattered what I tell every other child out there, but that she mattered. And so when I was plowing through certain boundaries around my adoptive family, around other people outside, and just saying they didn't matter, now I'm saying, wait a minute, I gotta shore up my boundaries and I've gotta honor this little girl. So this book is a joint partnership, actually, with her because in the process of gaining her trust, she did something so beautiful for me, and that was recalling such vivid memories about what happened to her. So I promised her we were going to lift her up. I promised her that she would be seen and heard and her voice would just be throughout this country and around the world. [00:11:48] Speaker A: That's beautiful. And I, having read the book cover to cover, I can tell you that this memoir is a. You have done that. You have honored her and her voice. And I can tell so much personal work went into the ability to write that story on a page of paper. [00:12:11] Speaker B: It was hard. I isolated myself and. And to sit with those feelings and feelings of abuse, sexual abuse, trauma, of. Of. Of the loss of my birth mama, as far as being torn from her, that the just. Just the fear of being in this world alone. And, you know, in that process, I had to look at systems. Systems, the child welfare system, the judicial system, the transracial adoption system. And based on the research, based on my foundational work, based on my story and stories that I've heard from so many foster and adopt individuals, the systems have failed us, and the transracial adoption system has failed us. And it's not just domestic, it is also international adoptions. [00:13:27] Speaker A: Yes. You write in chapter two. I think towards the end of your chapter, it was a sentence and some questions that I felt like were an excellent frame for today's interview. And I wonder if you'd let me read that line from your book. Is that okay? [00:13:47] Speaker B: Yes, ma'. Am. [00:13:48] Speaker A: All right. This is what Rhonda says. Harm was inevitable. And she's kind of closing these thoughts about transracial adoption as she says this. Who was going to get hurt? What was it going to cost? Who would be held accountable? What hope could there be for repair? And I wonder if we could kind of just take those questions and walk alongside them, ask them, discuss them today during this interview. [00:14:19] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:14:20] Speaker A: Wonderful. I want to give a little felt safety to our listeners because I know this is a topic that, you know, you know what it is if you press play, but if, you know, just sitting in the space in front of the microphone. I am a white adoptive mother in a transracial adoption. I have two daughters transracially adopted internationally. And so I hope that you'll hear me as we discuss with Rhonda, just in a position of wanting to listen and learn. We often, Rhonda and listeners might know this if they've heard some of our other episodes, but we have a glass head in our office. And now, currently, at the time of this recording, a lot of us are working from home in a hybrid type situation. And so the glass head has come with me to my home. It's actually right behind me. I don't know if you can see it. There it is, the very edge of it. [00:15:20] Speaker B: Yes, I can see it. [00:15:22] Speaker A: So we have this glass head in our office, and it is here to remind us of the people that we are speaking about. Because so often in so many systems and in so many rooms, we. We are talking about people without them. And especially in empowered to connect. As we're creating resources, as we are training, as we are teaching and consulting and coaching, we want to remember this glass head, the people that we are talking about, because sometimes they're in the room and sometimes they're not. So we're honored to have you in the room today, Rhonda, as a professional, as that little girl, your inner child. And I just hope our listeners invite you along with me in a posture of listening and humility that there is always something to learn from someone's story. And it can be hard. It can be hard to have hard conversations. In fact, you talk about that, Rhonda, in your book, about how we have to be willing to have those hard conversations and. And confront things in ourselves and in others that are uncomfortable. But I know it's going to be worth it. It has been worth it for me so far, and I hear that it's been worth it for you. [00:16:46] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. [00:16:48] Speaker A: All right, so let's talk first. Your first question that you ask is who is going to get hurt? So I would love to hear from your perspective, who is at risk for harm when we talk about transracial adoption and how is that harm done? Let's talk about that for a little bit. [00:17:07] Speaker B: So when we think about transracial adoption, we have to go back really, to 1970, when this was a controversy. And some of the things that got passed by, even in our conversations here and now, is that the national association of Black Students Social Workers made a statement. It was very powerful and it was very painful to some. And they called transracial adoption cultural genocide. They also asked for social. Black social workers to go back to their communities to end this sort of practice. And their concern was that black kids would be removed from their communities, leaving holes in the black community and brown communities. But we'll focus on black here. And that when they would go into their white homes, they wouldn't know who. They would grow up, not to know who they are, not to know where they came from, not to Know the stories that their ancestors told, not to know their medical histories, not to be with those that mirror them. And so it was such a emotional time back then that people either froze or they returned their children, even back to the system, for fear of hurting their child. Or they continued to adopt them and try to ignore that message. And then when the empirical research came up, that's when, you know, love is enough. And we sort of. When adoptive parents got all of the confirmation they needed, so the conversation was shut down. So when we look at who is harmed in this, we have to first look at who benefited. Who got to pick and say, I want. I want this black child. I want this brown child. I want. Who benefited white adoptive parents. When we look at the research, who benefited white adoptive parents, primarily heterosexual parents, cisgender who? And mostly evangelicals, who got to take these kids without any accountability. Because the foundation of adoption, and obviously transracial adoption, is that difference causes problems, sameness nurtures growth. So that's where we see the clock starting. The minute the black and brown child comes into the white home and the past of that child is erased. So we're already seeing the paradigm of who's getting the benefit. Whose narrative are we listening to? Surveys that were done on transracial adoption were done talking to white adoptive parents, asking them, how comfortable are you? Oh, white adopted parents say, oh, this child is so beautiful. I don't see color. And they were comfortable, but they were also living in their white communities, going to their place, going to predominantly white places of worship, hanging out with their friends in their neighborhoods, and everything that made them comfortable. Not once asking, what must this be like for these black and brown children? And so how did we operate as adoptees? Most of us went into survival mode. For many of us who entered white homes, our systems went into shock. Our little bodies went into shock. The smell was different, the food was different. The environment was different. And we had to perform that. All was well with a big smile, right? And we had to. We had to find a way to adapt. Adapt. And that was ignoring our boundaries. That was not knowing who we were. That was not knowing where we came from. That was not for many of us, including me, not having our authenticity birth certificate. Now let's look at foster care to adopt. Traditionally, that system is for white individuals who can pick and choose foster to adopt. You have to follow the money. Who is getting subsidies? Is it my white adoptive parents or is it the community in which I came from? So I started asking these questions, and for me, I came up with the entities, the people who are getting hurt the most, first and foremost are adoptees. We are being harmed the most. And then it is also birth parents. I question who checked on my birth mother after she gave me into the system with a hope that I would have a better life. And she had a list that she wanted for me, that I grew up in a Christian home, that I graduate from college, that I play the piano. She even said that. And that I keep my first name, including spelling it correctly, with an H in the middle of it. R, H, O, N, D, A. This is somebody who cared deeply. And we can't forget about those that place these children for many different reasons. What was their trauma like? How did they return to their families? And how did they deal with the brokenness? And we don't talk enough about that. And so there was a lot of losers in this. And the winners, I would say, are white adoptive parents initially. But at the end of the day, this will be balanced out. [00:24:29] Speaker A: You ask the question repeatedly in your memoir. Who benefits? Whose best interests are being prioritized? And I think that it is an important question to continue asking. One of the things that can I pull on a couple of strings that I've heard kind of bubble up in what you're talking about. One of them was language and the ways that we unintentionally harm birth families and adoptees. In chapter three, you talk about something that your grandmother said to you, and you said this about it. My grandmother's words not only hurt her children, but also became toxic beliefs that I absorbed into my mind, body, and spirit. When we teach about the impacts of trauma, one of those impacts that we teach about is the impact to a person's spirit when they've experienced traumatic experiences or adversity in their life. And what makes that toxic is having no time or support to make sense of it, to recover from it. And so I want to talk for just a second about language and the words that we speak over people and about people, the labels that we place on individuals, especially within foster care and adoption, and how that might be formative unintentionally to someone's identity formation. And you listed several of these when you were kind of processing, even looking through your own paperwork, the terms special needs, the term hard to place, even this concept of a forever family. And I wondered if you'd just talk a little bit about how language and the words people have used have done harm to adoptees. [00:26:30] Speaker B: Correct. So I believe, first and foremost, that every child has value and matters and has purpose in this world. So whether you're adopted or you're not, children deserve to be spoken over with love and compassion, with the understanding that they have purpose and that there is value. So when you are adopted, you bring your own gifts and talents to the table. Your ancestral heritage, you bring your, your, your trauma and as well. But what I found as I was listening to the little girl, the words she remembered that were told to her over and over again, was that exactly what you said. She was a special needs child. She was a hard to place child. So then I go into my white adoptive home and the first thing, my grandmother, and this is on my mom's side, my father is from the Netherlands and I have a different relationship with them for the better. But the first thing my grandmother said was, oh, she is black. And so that was told to me as part of my core narrative. And so you invest accordingly, right? If you are looking at somebody as insignificant, subhuman, only there to make you feel good, then that's what you're going to invest in. You're going to invest in this person as a commodity, not as a God given human being with tremendous purpose. [00:28:53] Speaker A: Commodity is a word that comes up a lot throughout your memoir, that the words, the message that you were given was that that was what you were, a commodity in your family. [00:29:03] Speaker B: A commodity. A commodity. So. And I'm not saying that there weren't good times, because throughout the book I do highlight those. But when you. But when I came up to who am I? Who does this family who said that I belong here think of me as? And how do they compare me to their own white children? White non adopted children, who gets protected and who doesn't. I was very clear that I was at the fringes of my family. And I made the decision, because there's a fire within me that if I was going to survive, I better figure out how to make money, how to get out here in this world, build connections, because I wasn't going to make it any other way. [00:30:07] Speaker A: Your grit throughout the book was just admirable. I, I continued to be impressed. And you attributed so much of that to God's spirit leading you along. And I just as you told your story and continued to, there was this spark of belief that contrary to what was being told or shown to you, that you did matter and that your voice mattered and that you were important. That was, I think, beneficial to see kind of that internal struggle versus your external circumstances. Can we talk for a second about. You know, we've talked about how there is A harm done when we erase differences and we require sameness. And yet there is harm done when we are othering someone. So let's talk about, like, how do we avoid othering, let's say, the child in our family who might look different or act different or come from a different history while celebrating their differences. [00:31:27] Speaker B: Okay, so I'm going to flip this a little bit. Yes, this is one of the strengths of transracial adoption adoptees. [00:31:33] Speaker A: I agree. [00:31:34] Speaker B: And I think so many times we're so focused on the trauma that we don't realize transracial adoptees, when they know their power, when they know who they are and where they came from, they can center that power. And they are a force. A force because they know how to cross boundaries and they know to different cultures and they know how to navigate things. But to answer your question, my father immigrated from the Netherlands. And when I was in the family, I had to learn Dutch prayers. I was wearing wooden shoes, not just to be cute, but that's what they wanted. You know, when we're outdoors in the garden and around the house, I took in his culture, his rhythm. I went to Netherlands many times. I was there last year. I hope to be there this year. You know, I learned about who he was. I didn't other him. I looked to see who he was, as I did with my mother. And how I am as a person is that it is. Somebody hurts my family, then they hurt me. That's who I am. But that's not what my family is. My family, they didn't protect me because they already had me in the other category. I saw them as human beings. I gave them grace and love and truth. But if you have a. If you have already in your mind categorized somebody to be in the other category, then you have already built the blueprint of what that relationship is going to be now and into the future. So the first step is we need to see each other as human beings that are connected to a culture, an ethnic background, that have an ant. They are coming from a place. They are connected to an ancestral history. All of our ancestors that sacrificed that did with very little. Somehow this child was birthed. So instead we want to look at circumstances. Oh, well, this child, you know, had two alcoholic parents, or this child came from the streets, or this child, we want to. As adoptive parents sometimes. I'm not adoptive parent. I'm just saying as adoptive parents, I find some try to come up with a spectacular story around saviorism or if it would you rather. Or they ask very simple questions like what would you have rather be being adopted or age out of the system? If you're from Ethiopia, would you have rather have stayed in the orphanage or flown to America where you can go to Disney World once a year? These kinds of questions are incredibly insulting. We have been out here for decades as adoptees, and this is very. This is a very complex process, and the stakes are tremendously high. And if we're still on these questions about what would you rather, as opposed to being willing to go into the space, then we really can't have a conversation. And so that's why for me, I'm calling on child welfare professionals, I'm calling on adoptive parents, parents, adoption agencies, evangelical churches, to come to the table with adoptees and really have a meaningful conversation around who's getting paid, who's not around, what are you doing to support the communities in which these families are. Are coming from, and what are you doing to keep these families together? There is an obligation, and that's the piece in transracial adoption that has been horrifically missed, is that we have. And I got to stop saying we, but the system has decided what's best. White parents have decided what's best, and they've done it without any accountability, without any truth from the adoptees, and without any course correction. And that's the part that I think is criminal. [00:37:15] Speaker A: I want to go back to thank you for kind of sharing what it would have looked like to experience belonging, celebrating those differences the way that you were able to go into, be interested in, take on the practices of immerse yourself in the culture of your dad in the Netherlands and that heritage, and long for the same to be done for you and held space for in your family, what it would have been like. And I think in your book, we see a longing for what would it have been like if your family had taken an interest in your heritage and in your culture and immersed themselves in that and then adapted practices of. And made space for in the family for that. Am I getting that right? Yeah, go ahead. [00:38:17] Speaker B: Let me make one correction. Because one of the things that I do credit my adoptive parents for, particularly my adoptive mother, is her love for culture. We left a predominantly white community in East Palmyra, New York, to go to the Washington, D.C. area. And so she had this love for. For culture. But. But there's. You got to do more than just have a love for culture, because it's. When you watch how your parents interact with black people from all walks of life, if they do, who comes into their home, who do whose Home do they go to? You know, do I see? I was surrounded by black people. I lived actually in a black neighborhood for a significant period of time, but they were never. I never saw any of my black neighbors in our home, and I never saw my mom talk to any of the black neighbors on the street. My dad would when he was outside working, you know, in the yard or building a house. But as an adoptee, I noticed that. And not only did I notice that, I digested that. And that's what created a potential hatred towards black, particularly black males that I saw on the nightly news. And so the trajectory I was on, even in my family that loves culture and is living in a black neighborhood, was that I was going to hate black people. So what does that do? When I look at myself, I was potentially going to hate myself. And I was. I was working right there. I mean, I almost was achieving that until I had to course correct. [00:40:26] Speaker A: I appreciate the distinction. And I think this is what was so trajectory changing for me, even when we read in their own voices, was that it's not enough to be adjacent to those spaces or to like a culture, but to. I mean, for transracial adoptive parents to change their places of worship, which my husband and I did. You know, we looked around and it was like, oh, we love these people. We love this body. We have to change. And I think even further later into my parenthood and my adulthood, I even felt shame that it took my child to inspire that in me because my life has been enriched and expanded and changed for the better because of the places and spaces that we've gone into intentionally, the relationships that we've formed. I don't want it the other way anymore. But to make changes is scary as parents. [00:41:45] Speaker B: It is very scary. And that's why, again, this is an indictment on systems. We started transracial adoption practice without any understanding of how these kids were going to turn out lifelong. Right? We did what we wanted as white adoptive parents. [00:42:09] Speaker A: It was an experiment. You called it. [00:42:11] Speaker B: It was an experiment. It's an experiment. And. And the harm that was done and it continues to be done to adoptees is not being addressed by the system and by the families and the adoption agencies. I have to see changes in policy and practice. I have to see the voices of those who are greatly impacted as part of that policy and practice. I need to see where that money is going, and it needs to be going into the communities in which these kids come from. There is really, and I talk about it in my book, there is no difference between My black biological family and my white adoptive parents, other than my white adoptive parents are white. They benefited from housing policies. Blacks had to deal with redlining. Blacks were not giving opportunities. Whites were given opportunities. When you look at the system, I was in a black foster home, a foster home that my foster mother cared deeply about me and wanted to adopt and had me from five days old to when I got yanked out of there into this white family. And so I had to research why. And sure enough, in the state of New York, the state of New York was the first state to offer foster, to adopt subsidies. Why did that not go to my foster. Black foster family? Why did it go to the white family who had no. You know, we want to talk about. We want to talk about what qualifies you. They had zero qualifications. They had never fostered before. They. They did not. They were not articulate within the black and brown communities and affluent in those communities. They may have had a desire, but they were not affluent in these communities, but yet they were able to get the money. [00:44:42] Speaker A: It was such a perplexing. There were so many questions I had as I was reading this part of it. [00:44:48] Speaker B: Yeah, right. And so when we talk about why aren't black people adopting? [00:44:53] Speaker A: Or. [00:44:53] Speaker B: Or the system wasn't made for us. The system was made for white Americans. And so when you look at that, you have to talk about race, you have to talk about injustice, you have to talk about inequality. But when we arrive at our home, what is the first thing we're told? Race doesn't matter. We don't see color because. And by doing that, it's a way out for the oppressors. In a sense. That's a strong word. [00:45:36] Speaker A: It's a way of shoving those hard conversations under the rug because you know that you're going to benefit as the. As the majority in your household or as the one with the power. [00:45:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Without turning the mic on for the birth parents, for the communities of origin, some of these people didn't even know that I was adopted or that many of these kids were adopted. Some of. I was thankful that, you know, my mama was born before her time and was able to track identifying information in the records without the white social worker knowing that that was identifying information she had to outsmart. So that was the only way I was able to find her was the. What she left for me to find my way back home. And I just want to also say again, I believe children need homes that I have always believed and I stand for. I also have seen amazing multiethnic families formed through adoption. But I am getting at the underbelly of these systems. And if we want equity, we all need to come to the table. And not only does there need to be apologies, there needs to be policy changes so that everybody understands the values of those in play in this. [00:47:32] Speaker A: I'm hearing your call to accountability for communities, for leaders and systems that they're. [00:47:41] Speaker B: It's far too quiet out there. It's far too quiet. [00:47:47] Speaker A: I have a question for parents who are listening, maybe especially parents like me who have already entered the transracial adoption system. We're part of the system. We're complicit in the system. I even appreciated the way you didn't have to say this, but the way that you said even in the beginning of this interview that you were owning your own part in this story. When we talk about holding ourselves accountable as parents, we have a role also where we can hold our communities and our systems accountable as white parents, adoptive parents in this system. But how do you have advice for us on how we can hold ourselves accountable? What are some things that we can do, you know, as we're in. Already in it. [00:48:42] Speaker B: Okay, so. So. And that's why I'm out here, is because there are so many families already out here, and they deserve also to be cared for. That transracial adoptive families as well, you know, of course, adoptees, but we think about our families as, let's say, a blueprint, a organization, a mission statement. What is your mission in your family? And I always say, like, what is it that are your priorities? Is it your faith? Is it education? Is it okay? And then always. And look at your audience. Your audience is your family. So everyone in your family needs to be a part of the blueprint. And when you build it that way, you are going to get a beautiful portrait of honoring people in the family. So if you have somebody in the family who is deaf, How are we making sure that the entire family knows sign language? Where are we going as a family? We're going to go to Gallaudet University, even with our toddlers, to make sure that we have the best resources for the whole family to go along on the ride to be able to speak fluently in a hearing world and in a visual world. Does that make sense? We. That is, that becomes part of your blueprint. If somebody likes football or, you know, I've been watching the World Cups go Netherlands, you know, but, you know, let those interests be a part of your family. But if. If there's a black child that likes to play the Violin, make sure he's getting opportunities there too. Who are we giving money to? What are we saying is better than the other? Like, my family is phenomenal in English. I mean, I was always told that I could do better in English and writing and they were premium at that. But they were so busy celebrating that win for, for everybody in the family but me that they didn't realize what my skills may be. My skills are financial, goes a long way, by the way. I'm not minimizing English, but if you know how to manage money, you don't necessarily have to speak English. So. But do you see what I'm saying? We want to honor everybody in that family. And when you do that, then automatically, if one member in your family gets hurt, then everybody is hurt. And we are going to find ways to advocate for them, even if it's uncomfortable. We also go to voting. Now, the beautiful thing about America is you can vote for whoever you want to vote for. My godmother said when you go behind the booth, it's a private matter. But when you have kids and inter country placements, transnational, transracial, in some of these American homes, they're watching. They're watching what your political beliefs are, who you're voting for and how that aligns with their best interest. They're listening to the words you say at the dining room table about black people and brown people and immigrants and refugees. They're listening to see how you care for them. Do you just, you know, make a mention and go on with your day and do what you want to do. What, what are you doing? So you have to see in our. And let me say it's very important that adoptees see that you care, that you're invested. We can't be your first black and brown friend. We can't be the answers to, you know, adoptive parents, emotional states. If you need to get regulated, you have to get help for that. But don't, don't rest that on the child because this is a child who has to figure out how to deal with their own regulations in this current system and take care of their parents and extended family members. [00:53:54] Speaker A: I'm going to amen to all of that and I'm going to add some as well. Well, first I want to reflect back. I'm hearing you say that it must involve having a culture of belonging and connection in your family. And part of that is matching your words and your attention and your finances and what you pay attention to and celebrate and advocate for. You match that all up with, yes, integrity Your child? Yeah, each child. [00:54:30] Speaker B: So if that's exactly right, and here's an example with my family in the Netherlands. So I'm in Friesland, which is the top part of Netherlands, which is next to Germany. And I'm staying there, having a great time. We're going to museums, walking the canals, talking to the community. The village of Ingiviram, where my family is from. And I run out of my African American hair care products. I was there pretty long. So I was using butter for oil for my hair. I was using this butter and I was taking a little bit out and putting it in a little container and using it from the container. But my uncle Eco, he's really my second cousin, but I look at him as my uncle, he comes home and he reaches way back in the refrigerator where the butter is, and he's using it and he's looking and saying, well, where's all my butter? And finds out I'm using it. And he was livid. He's like, this is like a no sugar, no cholesterol, no nothing butter. And it's special for me. So then I. He's like, what is the problem? Why are you taking this? And I said, oh, it's for my hair. So the next thing I know, the village meets, meets the village meets. And he's talking about my hair care. And nobody knows really how to handle black ethnic hair. But I'm part of the village, I'm part of their family. And they are not going to rest until I get what I need. So they asked me, rhonda, what are you looking for? And I said something like coconut oil or something, you know. And so somebody had some coconut oil and said, is this what you're looking for? Is this what you need? I said, that's it. So my uncle and my aunt and Nina and my little cousins, we all went to Duck Em and we got like a huge, huge container of coconut oil, 100% coconut oil and little bottles. And they probably still have it at their house. But this is what I'm talking about. You are a part of our family. Your hair is different. And we see that and we're going to learn about it. But if you are lacking, this whole community is lacking. So we are going to be about making sure you're okay. In fact, it was my community in Netherlands that brought me because they wanted. We went down to Amsterdam and we went to this Van Gogh exhibit. And I wanted to go to the Van Gogh exhibit, but they also had an exhibit about black people around the world. It was phenomenal. All different shades of melanin. It was just amazing. But the whole family went to both and we celebrated both. That's when you don't feel like you're being singled out. You are a part of it. [00:58:13] Speaker A: You weren't a special project. [00:58:15] Speaker B: They exactly. [00:58:17] Speaker A: They, instead of learning sign language, they learned black hair. Care for you as a village, as a community. [00:58:26] Speaker B: Yes. And we talk about hard issues and we talk about slavery. I mean, I have to go to other countries to talk about that. And that's what I'm talking about. Understanding you belong. First of all, you've been uprooted and you also have family that is invisible until you find them. But we're more deeper than the talking points that we continue to use. [00:59:07] Speaker A: I want to speak with a little ETC language to our audience here. Just in some of what I'm hearing is needed is truly nurture. And I think a lot of when we connect, when we seek to connect and talk about connected parenting, nurture gets boiled down to softness or anyways, where I'm headed with this is the need for valuing, accepting, meeting needs, listening to, having fun with supporting interests, hobbies, passions, letting a person know that your feelings matter, your needs matter, you belong here. That is what nurture is. When empowered to connect teaches it. We talk about the need for a balance of nurture and structure. [01:00:04] Speaker B: I love it. [01:00:05] Speaker A: If our homes are absent of nurture, one of the ways we can hold ourselves accountable in transracial adoptions as parents, parents, as adoptive parents, is to be watching. How am I nurturing my black child, my transracial child that is, that is different than me? How are they different? And how can I celebrate that and make it a part of me too? [01:00:33] Speaker B: Absolutely. I like that. Etc language. Absolutely. And here's something that your listeners can think about as a goal. I'm very goal oriented. [01:00:45] Speaker A: Yes. [01:00:47] Speaker B: And I'm going to ask the question, how long do you want your adopted child in your life? Short term, Long term. We use the word forever home, which I struggle with, but that's the word I hear a lot of agencies use. Adoptive parents use this forever home. But we don't talk about what makes a forever home because right now there are a lot of estrangements and I see rehomings on social media. I'm like, this is just absolutely incredible to me. So again, we use these words. But I don't see in policy and practice how that can even be possible because I'm estranged by my parents. I'm estranged. And it's not that they won't talk to me. They want to, I'm sure. Well, my mom, I would think, wants to talk to me, and my family does, with the exception of some. But. But it's. It's. How small do I have to be? And, And. And when we look at Torn from the Root and you see on that cover a black little girl with big eyes, vulnerable eyes, eyes of curiosity. She's looking at you, and it's, how are you going to care for her? How are you going to care for her? And are you going to encourage her to flourish and be an eagle? Or are you going to keep her small or him small? And when the adopted individual decides to courageously live the life they were called to live, which I did, my family was not equipped to go on that journey with me. So with that tension, whether I wanted it or not, it breaks. And sometimes you can't get it back. And that's why I talk about repair. [01:03:27] Speaker A: Let's talk about repair, because how can we repair what has been broken? If you're a professional in a system that's listening to this, I think you can start to connect the dots that there is policy change that can be made here, that there are certain kinds of reparations that. That can be made for adoptive families. How. How do we begin to repair? What would be your words of wisdom? [01:04:00] Speaker B: I think first read books written by transracial adoptees and the voices that have been harmed the most so that we can get a clearer picture of the trauma, of the tremendous loss and pain on their end. If we're talking about professionals, people who have agency, they must do the right thing and call on change and bring the people who have been harmed the most to the table to come up with a just impactful, a holistic decision. Because we need each other. We need each other. Torn from the Root is a heavy one, because unlike my other ones, it's not written through the eyes of an academic, even though there's academic words in there. It's not written through the eyes to make, you know, white adoptive parents feel fuzzy. That's why I wrote an introduction. I did do that. I was told by a very wise person. Rhonda, I love this book. I couldn't set it down, but you have to do an introduction to warn us. I'm a white woman. And so I said, okay, I'll do that. [01:05:43] Speaker A: I will confirm I did not feel fuzzy and validated necessarily, and I didn't expect to. And so what I hear you saying is we pick up the books that are going to make us uncomfortable. We're going to listen as the glass head. [01:05:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And please know. Please know that Torn from the Root is written from a place of love. And I have given grace to agencies, to the system, to my adoptive parents, but who I hadn't given grace to is this child. Rhonda is. And so many adoptees. We are so hard on ourselves, and we're trying to stay alive out here. Because think about this the minute. Okay, how do I say this? My white brother and sister can live in their world, their comfortable world, vote who, however they want, say whatever they want in their circles. They don't have to wake up figuring out, how am I going to make it as a black and brown transracial adoptee? Who's going to call me out of my name? Who's going to walk past me for opportunities because I'm black? Who's not going to invite me certain places? And how do I navigate that? Every day I wake up trying to figure out how to make it out there. And this was a want from my white adoptive parents. I am the result of that decision, but the onus is on me. So many parents who have now moved to retirement, too many that I know are living in gated communities, gated senior communities, where you don't see anybody or very few people that look like me. They are choosing to live further away from the communities in which we came from, comfortably there. And that right there is not right. Because then that tells me the blueprint was always here. You know, in my family, here's a project. It seems popular, but when I'm done, I can just get my white privilege all the way back up. Nobody would even know I have a black daughter. [01:08:43] Speaker A: There is, I heard, hope for repair in the words that you're saying now and in the words that you share in your book. [01:08:55] Speaker B: Yeah, so repair. Yeah, so repair is not listening to what we want to hear. All of the myths. That colorblindness is wonderful. [01:09:06] Speaker A: It's putting aside the privilege that we may have and the privilege to think [01:09:11] Speaker B: about it and look at what is real. And that is one of the hardest things to do that I had to do in this book. Because you read the book, you see, I'm vulnerable, too. I'm going to own my part in this. But I had to look at what was real, not my fairy tale. You know, I look at what was real, and what I learned is that I too, was holding on to this fairy tale, that I belonged in my adoptive family. That's what they said. I'M I'm. I'm. I'm reading, you know, poems by, you know, individuals, talking about, you know, you're not. You're not born within me, but you're born in my heart. You're this, you're that. So I'm believing this. And then when. So when I'm treated poorly, I don't give the responsibility to my parents. I projected on myself that I must be a bad little girl. I must not be good enough. There's something wrong with me because in my little mind, I couldn't understand why people would adopt a black child and say they wanted her and then treated her so horribly. I couldn't understand that. And even now, I'm, you know, as an adult, I'm disappointed. But I love my family. The love is there, but the repair comes in. The repair comes in is because I don't trust being in their company. I don't trust that they can care for me. I don't trust that they know the harm they did to me. So repair starts with doing an audit on yourself, like I had to do. [01:11:12] Speaker A: Owning an audit. [01:11:13] Speaker B: Doing an audit on yourself and then looking at what it comes up to. [01:11:20] Speaker A: You know, Rhonda, the repair that happened, you've just said wasn't possible in the past. It hasn't been possible yet, let's say with the growth mindset to happen with your adoptive family. What? Or maybe your adoptive parents. I would be more specific. The repair that has occurred has occurred within yourself. [01:11:46] Speaker B: Yes. Well, so now I'm doing great out here. Hey, you know, after four foundational books and after Torn from the Root, I am connected with that little girl. [01:12:03] Speaker A: Yes. [01:12:04] Speaker B: She is growing up. She. I am doing the things for her that my parents and employers and people that have met me. Harm didn't do. I'm giving her kindness and time and compassion. If she doesn't want to go a certain place, I don't go. Even though I know I can navigate it. I had to raise her up. And at first it was like she was scared to go into. Like I was going to go back to visit my family. She was scared. She's like, don't do this. So I pulled back because now I. She was my priority. So she and I are doing fabulous. [01:12:51] Speaker A: You have repaired with her. You've integrated her into yourself. [01:12:56] Speaker B: Yes. [01:12:56] Speaker A: What she always deserved. [01:12:59] Speaker B: Yes. But. But can I just tell you, it took longer than Moses was in the desert, which was 40 years. It took a decade longer for this to happen. So the impact of the transracial adoption system, the Child welfare system is real. And I was able to recover because I also had incredible support from my church community that I grew up in, from my black godmother, my black great grandmother. You found yourself support from Oprah Winfrey. I have had support. Support from people who are homeless, who had to remind me who I was. So. And I have always had a lot of accountability in my life. And so I believe we can all repair, but it has to be intentional. You can't fake this. This is something. You can't twist the narrative. You can't pretend to see, not see things. You've got to look in that mirror, and you will see in Torn from the Root, there's. As I'm. As I am navigating my world, I look in the mirror and it is. It is. It is opaque. I first can't even see myself once I get into my white family, and then I'm starting to see a, you know, little bit as it comes and as the mist is removed from the. The. The. The. The mirror. So it is a process. But again, how much do you want to stay in a relationship with your black and brown child? How much do you want to. And only you can decide that. And if it's. If it's yes, you not only need to repair individually, you need to call, like, for my family. Before I wrote this book, I called my aunts and uncles in America, talked about what was done to me. I wanted to see what they said. And they shifted the narrative. They said they didn't recall. They said, that really did hurt you. Are you exaggerating? And so when they said that, that also is what compelled me to write this book. I will always give you a chance, but if there is no movement, then I will move the mountain. And so, because I deserve to live, I deserve to live vibrantly. Adoptees deserve to live vibrantly. We do not need to be embroiled in all of this trauma. We have to stop unaliving ourselves. And we are doing it in record numbers. And that is because we don't think that we have any other option. And I was close multiple times, and I'm pretty strong. But that's where my faith and my leaning on my God is what saved me over and over and over again. So people see what I've achieved, but they don't know the kind of repair, the kind of solitude it's taken, the kind of. I mean, I'm immersed in the woods and the mountains and by the water. I mean, to think through this and to give it the kind of care the time it needs. Jesse, by the way, you're phenomenal. Oh, my goodness. You're pretty, pretty strong. You are handling this. [01:17:38] Speaker A: I am so grateful for your courage to share with us and your patience to share with us. I can't imagine. I mean, I'm going to assume that this is not the only podcast episode that you are doing in your book tour. [01:17:54] Speaker B: No, it's not. But I love your community. [01:17:58] Speaker A: To talk about this over and over, that's a difficult thing. [01:18:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But I love this community. And if I wasn't so passionate, I mean, I would say because I'm passionate about this topic and about children and families, because I am. It's an indication that I still have hope in our structures and our families and in our churches. But we have a lot of work to do, and I'm at the point where I'm only speaking to organizations like yours that I believe are sincere, have the power to make change. And I am being very picky and choosy at this point. [01:18:58] Speaker A: Well, we do not take what you've shared with us lightly. And so, listeners, I know you don't. [01:19:04] Speaker B: I mean, yes, you're amazing. [01:19:05] Speaker A: Let's be good stewards of Rhonda's story, of Rhonda's charge to all of us. And Rhonda, as we close out, I wonder for the person picking up this book, I wonder if you have some words to them, whether they're an adoptive parent, an adoptee, a professional in the adoption world. What's your hope for them as they pick up this book? To read it? [01:19:33] Speaker B: Yeah. So as I'm already seeing, this book is being picked up very quickly. People who have ordered their book through Temple University Press, they're getting it early. If you're ordering Amazon, Barnes and Noble, you're gonna also. You'll get it when it comes out July 31st. But I want to first say thank you to so many individuals who are already picking this up. Adoptive parents, adoptees, non adopted siblings, communities of color, organizations. So what I would hope that all of you get out of this is that, first and foremost, I wrote this from the heart. And I wrote this as a gift, not just to this little girl, but to all of the entities we talked about on this podcast. I wrote it also with grace and honesty, with receipts. And so this is a book that I care very, very deeply about. So I want you to know that this is a generous gift that I hope that you receive. I hope that you, as you start reading this butcher, think about this book again in the perspective of this black little girl, it is going to feel different because it is not going to be your perspective, but it is going to be a perspective that is critical. As we talk about children changing systems for the better. And there are glimmers of hope where we see the system trying to make amends to some of the things that have happened. And to also read this with an open mind, take all of your, [01:21:46] Speaker A: you [01:21:46] Speaker B: know, your pre, pre assumed notions and set them down because I also had those. And as I went through this journey, I had to take those glasses off. All of my assumptions were and beliefs and some of these same myths were blown out of the water. So this is, I guess I would say enjoy the ride. See how you can, with your own agency, bring attention to giving voice to transracial adoptees in the boardrooms, in legislative chambers, congressional chambers, in organizations so that we can all together find ways to make children and families soar. [01:22:45] Speaker A: Thank you. I'd love to finish out with a quote from chapter eight of your book, if I might. You say, deep in my spirit, I knew I had more to accomplish here. I had to continue on the path I was on, full of tension, discomfort, loneliness, indifference to understand who I was, what I was made of, and how to embrace my purpose. I think we all get to be part of our own journey of doing that. And I'm so grateful that you continued on yours, Rhonda. It has been a blessing to so many of us. Thank you for speaking out courageously and we're listening. I know you mentioned kind of talking to a college president that had been part of your life and one of the meaningful things he told you was, Rhonda, I heard you and I hope that everyone listening in this episode would be able to echo that, that regardless of the tension or discomfort it might cause in us to be able to hear you and take our part in what we're talking about and to move forward with action. That's my hope for all of us. [01:24:12] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. [01:24:19] Speaker A: Well, I hope you enjoyed hearing Rhonda's story as much as I did and for the honest way that she was able to trust us with that story. Where do we go from here? Parents, if you're looking for etc resources to learn more about repair, to learn more about giving voice to your child or finding ways to nurture who they are and find a way to connect with them, I would encourage you to check out empoweredtoconnect.org for some courses and training that we might be able to offer specifically I would recommend looking into Cultivate Connection Parent course. Either finding a facilitator in your area to join other families to take that course in your community or we have an on demand version as well available right now through our website. Thank you for learning with me. I'm on this journey with you and we exist to provide ways to fill those gaps that we're feeling between what we were provided, the information that we knew as we started and where we get to choose to go from here. Thank you. It's been an honor. We hope you enjoyed the episode. If you're interested in learning more, head to empoweredtoconnect.org for our library of resources. Thank you to Kyle Wright who edits and engineers all of our audio and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at etc, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on Empowered to Connect podcast. In the meantime, let's hold on to hope together.