[E249] Showing Up Whole to Persevere In Hard Work With Amanda Purvis

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the Empowered to Connect podcast, where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families, and our communities. Hey, everyone. I'm here with a dear friend of Empowered to Connect, Amanda Purvis. And I am so glad to have a conversation with you, Amanda, today about kind of staying in this work for the long haul. Welcome to the podcast. [00:00:34] Speaker B: Thank you. It's such an honor. I'm a longtime listener, so it feels so fun to be here with you. [00:00:41] Speaker A: Well, I know JD has gotten to interview you in the past, and Amanda and I have been at various events together over the past couple of years, so it's been fun getting to know you better. But I'm glad to have you on as an official interview. We haven't had you in a while, so I'm glad to have you over here. [00:01:00] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:01:01] Speaker A: Okay. Reintroduce yourself to us. Tell us, you know, who you are, what you do, and kind of what brought you to that work. We, we share work in a similar field. So who is Amanda Purvis? [00:01:14] Speaker B: Sure. Without getting too personal. No, just kidding. No. I have been in this quote unquote field of child welfare and trauma my entire career, even in my undergrad, my internship. I then shifted into child welfare and doing intake in Colorado and then worked in implementing TBRi across Colorado for anyone post permanency, and then shifted to work at the Karen Purvis Institute. For about eight years, I worked there on the outreach team. And then about 18 months ago, I made a big shift and I went to one of the organizations that I had worked with that entire eight years, All God's Children International. They recruited me to oversee their Global Impact Team. And so I work there now. At agci, we're a global organization who restores children who are alone to their families. And most of these kids are alone because of poverty, trafficking, child labor, and we help to protect them and support them on their healing journey back to family. So that's what we do. And we do that in six countries. [00:02:41] Speaker A: I love that we have several partners that are at work globally in the world, and I just love what AGCI is doing. You know, I think probably for our listeners, they might remember a time when you guys were doing placements. So tell me kind of how that's shifted over the years and how that intersects with what you're doing in your role. [00:03:05] Speaker B: Yeah, AGCI started off as an adoption agency in the Pacific northwest, and for 30 years, they helped to facilitate international adoptions. And then throughout that entire journey, AGCI was really really honed in on care and transitional care and what does it mean? And through that journey, one of the things that we learned was many of the children were coming into care and therefore becoming eligible for adoption because of those things that we just talked about, poverty, trafficking. And so we began our work with family preservation about 20 years ago at AGCI, and that work has just grown and grown. And so recently we made the transition to only doing family preservation and prevention work in these countries that we work in. And so for about the past five years, that has been the majority of our focus in country. [00:04:05] Speaker A: I love that. Okay. And for our listeners, I know probably a lot of people associate you with kpicd, the Karen Purvis Institute, and having been so formative in all the work that was being done in trust based relational intervention. So let's talk a little bit about, you know, once you connected with TBRi, how long did it take to start kind of integrating that into your own personal life and, you know, what you were going to carry along with you professionally, whether you were there at the institute or not? [00:04:42] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's a great question. So my personal story is what brought me to this work, as I think most of us, whether we're as caregivers or as professionals, we would, when we really get down to the nitty gritty, we would say that my own story. [00:04:59] Speaker A: True for me, too. [00:05:01] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. So my own story brought me to this, which is why I then studied social work. So I actually became familiar with TBRI the year that the Connected Child book came out. I read it for a class in college, and I had always known that I wanted to be an adoptive parent. And so I saw that book, I had to read a book about parenting. So I picked that one and basically, like, became a groupie at that point. And so if I could ever be in the same space that Dr. Purvis was, I really tried to make an effort to do that. I saved up for many years and actually made up an organization so that I could go to practitioner training. And then that's kind of what pushed the Colorado work. So I have, as a professional, TBRI has been with me actually, from the very beginning of my professional journey. And right around the same time, I was a really young mom. So I also knew this information right about the time that I became, certainly by the time I became a foster and adoptive mom, I had that information. And so it has always been an integrated part of who I am as both a professional and a mom and parent. And I would just say how I show up in relationships. Not to say that that's been a really easy or fun journey, but it's been there for a long time now. [00:06:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Much easier said than done, right? But yes, yes, absolutely. I identify a lot with that. Just having encountered the connected child and the work that Dr. Purvis was doing before I became a parent and. And then just trying to implement those things in my young parenting, early parenting years and, and in the relating and then carrying it into professional work as well. All right. It can be a lot. It can be a lot to do the kind of work that you're doing. You did. It sounds like you did intake in Colorado, you were saying, and worked in child welfare, I'm assuming, in some capacity. And then you've been doing training for years. And now in this global impact position, what do you feel like has kept you in this work? It can be really heartbreaking to work in the kinds of sectors that you've been in and tell me what's been hard about it and what do you feel like continues to drive you? [00:07:54] Speaker B: I think there's like, a personal answer to this and a professional answer. [00:07:58] Speaker A: Yeah, we can talk about both of them. Okay. [00:08:02] Speaker B: From, like, a personal aspect, I would say what has kept me in this work is my desire to be. To be steeped in the things that deeply matter to my children and therefore to me in the sense that my. How I show up in relationship with my children is something that I am keenly aware of because I don't naturally do it well. And so I think just from like, a purely selfish and probably unhealthy place that is, what originally drove me into this work was if I'm not steeped in this, I won't do it well. It turns out that doesn't actually help you do it well. But. But I think that's probably what drove me. Even when I think about, like, initially learning about TBRi, one of the things that I said was like, if I have to teach this to people, I have to know it and I have to integrate it. And so if I force myself to do that, then I will do this well. And in many ways that's true, but it doesn't mean that you then do it well all the time. [00:09:32] Speaker A: So can we press? That would be like, because I kind of want to. I. I think of. I think our listeners are going to really identify with that. I'm assuming, like, I'm picturing people folding laundry or driving in their car and they're nodding their heads. I would be. I am. Right now, when you say you didn't naturally do it. Well, like, flesh that out a little bit. What did that feel like to you? How did you. How did you sense that that wasn't working? Or what would it have looked like to, quote, unquote, do it? [00:10:02] Speaker B: Well, I think that we could talk about that for, like, six months. [00:10:09] Speaker A: I agree. I know, like, there's. [00:10:12] Speaker B: There's so much unfolding of. Of my own history and my own story, like, to come to terms with that simple sentence. I think that. It required me to really investigate the things that I held as truth and what matters, and hopefully that will continue like that. I. I'm certainly not suggesting that I've arrived at the truth of what it means to be a good parent or what it means to show up, but I think that when I started this work, even on a personal side, I really thought I have the knowledge I need to be a really good parent, and that I believed that that knowledge is what would lead to having close relationships with my children and them being, quote, unquote, successful. And. And I would have stood two feet, like, two feet, like I am standing on this. Like, I have the right information I need to be a good parent. And it turns out that that journey from the head to the heart to the hands to the feet, I'm now 21 years into parenting and I still am not coordinated. Yes. Journey, for sure. [00:11:46] Speaker A: I resonate with that. Definitely feel the same. Thank you for unpacking that a little bit. I know we could talk for six months, but. Yeah, I think even that phrase that you say, like, for your kids to be successful, that means so many things, that has meant so many things to me as a mom along the, you know, 15 years I've been in this as a mom of, like, what does that even mean? You know, there's so much that changes as you start integrating what you have learned into actually that belief system and your everyday reactions and practices and responses. Yeah, yeah. [00:12:30] Speaker B: And I think that's it. Like, success. And I know your listeners can't see, but every time I say success, I'm doing, like, air quotes because, like, I think that that was a concept that I believed in as, like, this is the definition of success. And now that I'm gotten my hands dirty in this thing called life and with kids who experienced trauma, is that. Is that is setting the bar and setting an expectation based on my definition of success for my children, that literally hinders our relationship. And so I've really had to work on. I was going to say daily, but it's way More than that, it's like, minute by minute. [00:13:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:21] Speaker B: Like, reminding myself of, like, what my actual definition of success is in parenting. And I think for me today, like, where I sit in that is when my kids need me. Do they call me when. When my kids say who's in my corner, that my name is one of the names that come out of their mouth. And I have kids now who are adults. And so it turns out, like, I have zero. Like, I. I think for many years, as a. As a young parent, I at least felt like I had a level of control over my children's lives. And as now I have all teenagers and young adults, I realize I have absolutely zero control over their life, which has been a whole nother interesting journey for me. But part of that is, like, it turns out that my definition of success doesn't actually matter. When they are their own adults walking around in the world, they get to define what success looks like for them. And so. And my role then is to support them in feeling successful. And so that's been quite a personal journey. [00:14:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it is for all of us. I mean, my oldest daughter is 16, and so I'm just dipping my toes into this. It's one thing to define success for your children and think that's the definition while you're choosing all their outfits and styling their hair for them. And as. As that child starts to turn into their own person. Yeah, that changes. It changes for years and years and years. And I think a lot of it is, for me, has been loosening. Loosening my grip on that definition and realizing maybe those were more dreams, maybe those were more values, maybe those were more even ways that I would have rewritten my own life, not written my child's life, you know, and. And that we don't. You're right. We don't control those things, you know, is such a journey. Okay, I know. I know. I've taken us off on that rabbit trail from what has kept you in this work, but what brought you to the work was your personal life. Yeah, yeah. [00:15:46] Speaker B: And then I would also say, like, from a professional side, like, of what's kept me in this work is, like, I really believe in, like, the feedback loop, and we talk about that a lot. But I think for many of us professionally, we don't get to see, like, the entire. And so, like, when you're only inserted as a professional in one part of a family or a child's journey, of course we get exhausted from that experience. Of course, we maybe lose hope and things like that. And so being able to kind of, now that I've been here for more than two decades, like, see some of those loops and see the impact that our work has had on families, to see the impact. Like, for example, right now at agci, we work on reunifying children with their families. And so, for example, in Ethiopia, there's almost a million kids who are living on the streets in Ethiopia alone. And most of them have family, and they've been separated for many reasons, but often due to labor trafficking. And so we're helping to find family, prepare family, and then reunify them. And so about once a week, I get to see a reunification of a child to their family. And that, like, I literally, like, every time I cry every time, every time I'm like, this is why I'm doing what I'm doing. Like, this is it. And so, like, those, like, finding those moments in our work, whether it's, you know, the reunification video and, you know, watching this, mom and dad's just relief, like, just pour over them as they are finally reunited with their child that they've lost or, you know, in. In different fields, like, what is that moment where you go, this is. This is my why? And just reminding ourselves of that, that has kept me in this work, in doing this thing over and over again. [00:17:59] Speaker A: That's moving. I. I don't know that I would be able to see that at any point in time and not cry. I love that it continues to kind of move you and energize you and fuel you for what's ahead. And I think you've had this unique experience of getting to have your perspective and view zoom out and out and out over the years. You know, being part of that work in child welfare in the beginning and then getting to kind of see how professionals are attempting to put this into practice. As you were training, and then now on this global platform, you know, focusing on impact, that's a unique privilege to get to kind of shift those perspectives. [00:18:50] Speaker B: It is. It's huge, and it's something I'm grateful for. And I also, like, one of the things that we say often at AGCI is like, the many and the one. Like, we are in this for the many, but the many doesn't exist without the one. And, like, what is that one story, that one person that, you know, when we talk about macro work, we can't talk about systems without talking about people. And so, like, just the integration of that, I think, is so beautiful. [00:19:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I love thinking about that from a professional standpoint, because I Often think about it in my home that way. It's a little bit of what you were talking about, wanting to steep yourself in the things that deeply mattered to your children. It was like, we're not just this role of parent. I think a lot of times for me, when I think about, you know, going back to that definition of success or what's being required of me in this moment relationally as a parent, I'm often thinking about that story that's going to be told one day, and it's not going to be told about, like, kids and parents, although that might be a part of a belief system that's being formed. It's going to be my child talking about their parent and their life and what they believe about themselves. And so, yeah, from. From a home all the way up into, you know, all of these sectors of professional life that matters. These are. These are individuals that we work with in every single field. Yeah. All right. I think you've gotten to have this [00:20:32] Speaker B: unique role [00:20:35] Speaker A: as you taught and continue to teach TBRI to different groups, and almost gives you this role of a translator. You're translating kind of what we know about trauma, what we know about neuroscience and psychology and child development, and we're taking it to professionals. And even over at agci, you're kind of translating that into the field you're working in. Now. What is required for you to do that kind of translation work? We talked about it, like, it is quite one thing to know this information and then live it out as a caregiver, for example, or in your relationships professionally as you're building trust on teams and in your workplace. But when you're applying this work to the things that you do or you're encouraging others to do that, what do you think is required? [00:21:40] Speaker B: Yeah, the word I wrote down and it. Actually, we already talked about this, but the word that immediately comes to mind is integration. [00:21:49] Speaker A: That's funny because that's a word that we have talked about so much at, etc this year. Integration. [00:21:54] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes. Like, that is what immediately comes to mind. But one thing I want to say about that is, and I say this with grace for myself, but I have a lot of regret in how that translation process has happened over the years, because I think that there's a weight to that of, like, how can we simplify, like, all of brain science and all of. With, like, let's be very humble, none of us know all of it anyways. But then. But then, like, when you become the translator of it, sometimes the oversimplification to make it usable means that we lose some important parts. And so I think, for me, I have had the responsibility of being in that role. And I think, again, this mirrors both my professional and my personal life, is that it's really easy to say, like, well, what brain science tells us is if we do A, B will happen. And then, like, you're at home and you do A and B doesn't happen, or B doesn't happen in the time frame that you thought, or it doesn't happen with the amount of reps that you expected, or it doesn't. And so I think that part of my regret is that I think there was a message that was received around teaching these things that was, if you do this correctly, and it goes back to that definition of success, if you do this correctly, this will be the outcome. And I think what that did was, first of all, it made caregivers or parents the healer. [00:24:06] Speaker A: Come on, let's talk about it. Yes, [00:24:10] Speaker B: I'm actually getting emotional a little bit. But the other thing that it did was it took away agency from our kids. And I think it simplified the definition of success or outcomes. And so I think that, like, when we talk about that translation, I know that it's a necessary part of this process. It's necessary for us to lean on people to take really big concepts and make them applicable. And I also know that we lose important things in that process. And I've been on all parts of that spectrum as the receiver of a translated information, as the giver, as you know. And so I think that there's a lot of weight there. [00:25:28] Speaker A: Thank you for trusting us with your vulnerability. And I. I really identify with what you're saying in maybe regrets or weight of carrying that role as translator. Could we park there for a second and just talk about, like, when we are talking about potential harm and viewing ourselves as healers, what is the harm? What is the danger in that? [00:26:06] Speaker B: Oh, that's a great question. I think the first, and I can only speak for myself and my own experiences, but I think part of the harm is the weight of responsibility [00:26:25] Speaker A: that [00:26:25] Speaker B: I don't believe is healthy or. Something that someone should have to carry. I think there's a difference between being attuned and connected to your child in their own journey and feeling responsible for their journey. And so I think what I took away from so much of that teaching was I was responsible. And there is a truth in that. How I show up deeply matters to my children's journey. There's also a truth that I could show up Perfectly. And they can still choose any path they choose because they are their own whole person. [00:27:26] Speaker A: Can I be honest? That is the part of parenthood that made me want to opt out. I was like. Because I think in my lived experiences before I became a parent, I was watching and experiencing teenagers and young adults making choices that I could not figure out how the formula went wrong. I was like, I don't understand how this happened and I don't want to subject myself to that kind of pain as a parent. And I think for a long time in my very young adult life, I thought I'm just going to search and search until I find the right formula. And I think for a lot of people, TBRI and Trauma Informed Care feels like they've found it. That, that is, they've found the formula. And I think you're right. When you are living that out, even if you are to live it out perfectly, which none of us can do. Turns out, yeah, turns out, I don't. Yeah, the research is in [00:28:39] Speaker B: you. [00:28:39] Speaker A: It, yeah, it are. People are individuals, they get to make their own choices. And I find myself wanting, even as a parent right now, my teenagers, to make choices with my adult brain that I never would have made as my own teenager brain, you know. [00:29:03] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and, and I like, I remember being a teenager and like thinking that my parents were complete idiots like, like every day, like, like you have no idea. [00:29:17] Speaker A: I remember saying, I remember saying to my mom's face that I believed that my friends had shaped me more as a person than my parents had. And like being like you, you haven't influenced me at all at 0%. [00:29:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, you're actually not important. [00:29:33] Speaker A: I didn't even think that was a mean thing to say. [00:29:35] Speaker B: I just thought I was stating fact. [00:29:37] Speaker A: Right, right, right. [00:29:40] Speaker B: I mean we could all like when we have a minute, we can put ourselves in that place and remember. And I think that there's like some systemic stuff too where. And like some attachment patterns and from history. Like, I mean like we could really geek out on it if we wanted to. But I think after World War II, like there was like this massive shift in attachment patterns in the United States. And therefore like my parents generation was parented very differently and therefore they parented us differently. And so like all of that to say I, I used to think, [00:30:25] Speaker A: wow, [00:30:26] Speaker B: my parents just like, I remember like at 18, like, I mean my parents were like done like, like they were like we did it like go fly and, and I did and I like. But in general the world was a place that 18 year olds could go and like, we could all afford in general to go to college or to work a job and live on our own. And you know, like, we could do those things at 18 that now that just simply isn't actually doable for most people. And so even, even that one small shift systemically of like, you can't work a job out of high school and have, and be able to afford, at least not in Colorado, be able to afford to live on your own. And so just that shift changes, therefore, a lot of what it means to parent and what success looks like and all of those things. So I just think there's a lot of systemic things at play as well. [00:31:36] Speaker A: I agree. Okay, so the first part of that was, you know, this mission misunderstanding or misbelief that, that our job was to heal. The other part of it was that potentially it stole agency from our children. What, what does that mean when you say that? [00:32:00] Speaker B: I think specifically for like adoptive and foster families, I think that they're, again, I'll speak for myself, but even things I didn't know that existed, that savior complex that let me help a child who needs it and let me help. And so in that it was, I was the person who could heal them. I could give them their resources, the time, the care, the love, the attention that they needed. And as a result, they would then form into this person that I valued. And it turns out that when we parent children using TBRi, they come out in general, like, knowing who they are and having some sort of worth and value and voice. And so they're very like, they love to tell you that you're very wrong about who you think they are or what they should do or because they have agency and voice. And so I think I didn't realize a child's level of agency, frankly, because I as a child didn't have that level of agency. And I think that goes back to some of those systemic parts of parenting. And so now I think those of us who have been using TBRI and trauma informed methods for more than a decade, we've raised these children who have agency. And we're like, wait, we didn't have agency when we were your age. Like, now we don't know how to, like, how do you deal with that? Like, what do you mean you're not just going to do what I think you should do to become a successful adult? And it turns out they're doing exactly what we taught them to do. [00:34:01] Speaker A: We taught them to do it. Yes, yes. [00:34:05] Speaker B: And that's good. That's success doesn't feel good. [00:34:10] Speaker A: It doesn't feel good. Right. [00:34:13] Speaker B: So that's the part around agency that I am discovering in my own journey and recognizing in my children. Like, wow, I wonder what it is like to be a 21 year old who doesn't care what your mom and dad think you should be or do or how you should fill your time because you're a 21 year old who knows what you want to do and what's important to you, and you spend time doing those things. I don't know what that's like. [00:34:40] Speaker A: All right. And also, this is making me think about, like, I'll bring some levity into this. Teenager comes downstairs over the weekend and, and announces before, before the rest of our family's getting ready to eat lunch that she's going to get some Chick Fil a. She does not want what we're having for lunch. She's going to go get some Chick Fil A. And I mean, I started to say, I'm ashamed to say, but I'm not ashamed to say. This is just kind of the journey of parenting. Like, maybe I want to normalize. Like, this just happens even in homes where we teach these practices and principles. It turned into a two hour argument about, like, can't, like, why can't she get Chick fil A? It's her money. Well, it's our car. Well, it's her time. You know, it's kind of highlighting this idea where you're talking about, like, you give a child voice and that child is going to use that voice. And I think at the end of that argument, you know, as we were, as we were connecting and landing the plane and repairing whatever ruptures had happened, I think there was an understanding that passed between teenager and parents where it was voiced on the parental side. Like, you know what? We're a little bit jealous. We're a little bit jealous that you have spending money that you can spend on yourself. Because we do that right now because we just found out how much we owe on our student loans this month, you know, or whatever. It's because we are paying bills and because we're adulting and we miss being 16 and being able, you know, or maybe we missed the opportunity to feel that way when we were 16. Maybe, you know, maybe we grew up in homes where we were expected to feel grateful for all that our parents did and our money didn't belong to us or our voice didn't belong to us. There's so much wrapped up in that. Right. And I think you're right. To those. I'm going to bring it back to. The weight of being a translator is that sometimes what you translate it doesn't make sense to the people that hear it, or it gets filtered through a wrong message or even to ourselves. It means something different until we live out the consequences of what we thought it meant. [00:37:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:25] Speaker A: And I think what you're highlighting for me is that trust based relational intervention, connected relationships, this way of being with people, this way of looking at and seeing people and patterns of relating with them, it is such a dynamic thing. Right. It grows and changes with each individual that's using it and who they're using it with. And that is really hard to teach other people. Yeah, yeah. [00:38:05] Speaker B: We used to say a lot when I worked at the institute that TBRI is not a formula and it has to be individualized. It has to be like, what I would do in this situation should be different than what you would do in this situation. And it should depend on. But it turns out that that's not just true, like when the kid is throwing a shoe. It turns out that's true, like for all of the time. [00:38:35] Speaker A: All the time. In all relationships and all interactions. Yes. Yeah. Yep. So it's such a bummer and such a gift. It's. It's an opportunity for sure. [00:38:47] Speaker B: Yes. [00:38:48] Speaker A: So as you walk into this role at AGCI and you're working on family reunion and preservation, I hope I'm using those words correctly. Correct me if I'm not. What does that look like? How are you putting those things into practice as you're creating policies and systems and doing your everyday work? [00:39:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I think part of the reason why I was drawn to AGCI is they, on a professional level, have made the shift that made on a personal level. And so I find my own journey mirrored in, in the journey there in the sense that I'm only going to speak for myself. But in my. In my experience, what I wish is that instead of. This is going to sound really intense, but let me walk it out. Instead of adopting some of the children that I fostered, I wish that I had been able to support their families. That's it. And so, like, I think that as I see the systemic, I'm trying not to use like, politically charged language. [00:40:23] Speaker A: I understand. Because this goes either way, right? Yeah. [00:40:28] Speaker B: Yes. Like, as I see just all the systemic shifts and as I see how the system plays out for vulnerable people, whether we're talking about in Ethiopia, in Guatemala, in Rwanda, or in Elizabeth, Colorado, the way that the system plays out for those of us who are vulnerable is that we end up a victim oftentimes to the systems that were created to actually support us. And so I think on a professional level, that is why the work that AGCI does of engaging systems where they are not meeting needs is what is what I'm so passionate about, stepping into a system and saying, this is what was intended, and yet this is actually what's happening and how can we bridge that gap? And so the work that we do in each country looks very differently. But I, like, I see that globally with systems, and I see that in my home with my kids and with their biological families and with the systems that they have to navigate as a result of some of the things that they deal with. [00:41:58] Speaker A: And we've interviewed on this podcast adoptees that talk about being victims of the system. [00:42:04] Speaker B: So [00:42:06] Speaker A: it is, it's so difficult. I wonder if you have any words of advice for individuals working in organizations that are, you know, they are. They have influence and they're desiring to shift their professional culture or they're desiring to change. You know, be someone who has influence to change a system. Any advice for them? [00:42:36] Speaker B: I don't think you'll be surprised by my advice, but I think my advice would be systems are made up of people. And so until you are that change and you are living that change, oftentimes passing a policy seems like the gold standard of systems work. And it turns out most of us are living with the effects of policies that were passed that are not helping us. Right. So what I would say is like showing up as a person in a system who is a person who is whole, and seeing the people in front of you as whole, people who have agency over their life and who are doing the best they can with what they have in that moment is one of the most, I believe, revolutionary ways that we can change the system. [00:43:29] Speaker A: I love that and agree. Speaking of which, do you think that it is. Which one do you think is more difficult practicing what we believe about meeting needs of people and about. Right. Relating with people? Is it harder to practice professionally in the systems and in the workplace, or is it harder for you to practice at home? What do you think? [00:43:58] Speaker B: For me, for me, it's a million times harder to practice it at home. [00:44:02] Speaker A: Why do you think that is? [00:44:05] Speaker B: For me, I think I was like, I've thought about this. I don't have wiring in my body professionally outside of being trauma informed. And so I had an opportunity to create that pattern in my workplace with really healthy people in, in this Way all along. But it turns out at home, even if you've always parented with the knowledge of tbri, you showed up to parenting with your history before that knowledge ever entered your brain. Like, how were you wired up relationally? And so I think that that history shows up more in my home than it does in the workplace for me. And not to say that we can ever hide it. Like every attachment expert would be, like, you're the same person at home and [00:45:09] Speaker A: at work, of course. [00:45:10] Speaker B: And that's true. [00:45:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:11] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true. And I have a pattern already wired into me. I would say for secure responses at work that. That I am almost there, I think. But secure doesn't mean we don't have ambivalence. It means. It doesn't mean we don't have dismissiveness. It means that we welcome all of it and we're okay with it and recognize it and make sense of it. And so I think I'm still. I'm still there working on that part at home. [00:45:44] Speaker A: I like your perspective of, you know, when you were working on this professionally, you were doing it with people who were also working on doing that professionally, which can make a big difference. My kids believe that they could teach us all these principles and practices because they've heard about them so much. But it is just quite another thing for us to all have what's baked into us. Like you're saying, baked in, and we're just bringing it to each other. I was thinking while you were talking about how I would answer that question, because in some ways, my home has gotten to be my lab, you know, like my. My guinea pigs. My children are my guinea pigs, and I apologize to them all the time for that. But I'm like, I'm. I'm learning how to do this. While you're learning how to do this, we're learning how to do this together. I think I bring a lot of faulty beliefs and thinking, especially as a leader, as a female who is leading into the workplace that now I'm, like, starting to dismantle and work on. And it's like a whole. That's like the wild west for me. So I don't know, maybe it changes just depending on what season of life you're in and where. What your workplace is and the individual that that is bringing those things. [00:47:11] Speaker B: No, you're right. And that is key to my response is I did this alongside of colleagues who were safe and were trying to figure it out together. One of, like, the woman who trained me to become a foster parent. 20 years ago. I then took to TBRI practitioner training. We then co trained. We then started, like, the Colorado work for TBRi and. And I now work alongside of her at AGCI. So we have literally been like, walking this journey together. And she's an adoptive parent. She, you know, like. And you have a professional guinea pig friend. I do, yeah. And, like, we figure it out together. And she's such a gift to me. We always say to one another, like, we are so lucky that we get to figure this out together. And. And I could tell you about five other colleagues that, like, we just have this beautiful safe net where we're learning together. [00:48:20] Speaker A: Well, even as you're talking about that, I'm thinking about people that I work with here in this organization that are safe. People to try things out with and to mess up with and keep working on things. So. No, that is a good reminder. Okay. As we wrap up, I'm curious. I've got a question that I didn't send you ahead of time, but I'm really, really stuck on this idea that you were talking about being steeped in the things that matter to your kids. [00:48:57] Speaker B: Yes. [00:48:58] Speaker A: What are some of those things? If you don't mind sharing, you don't have to, like, go super granular and personal. But what are some of those things that have come out as you steep yourself in those things? [00:49:10] Speaker B: I think, like, there's, like, deep things and then there's. I'm like, really? [00:49:13] Speaker A: Basketball. I know. Basketball is one of them for you. Yes, yes. [00:49:18] Speaker B: Basketball is one. Ballet is another. Right. So, like, I'm steeping myself. Like, yesterday, my daughter had her private for ballet, and I was sitting in the car waiting for her, and then I was like, why am I sitting in the car? And so I, like, went in to watch and just. I learned so much because I was none of the things they are like, none of my children are, like, following a path that was similar to mine. So I'm having to learn all new things. I cannot dance. And my daughter is like, she wants to be a professional ballerina, and she spends 45 hours a week dancing. And so I'm like, well, I better learn what a gragete is. Or, you know, like, at least need to know some French. So. So, yeah, like, steeping myself in those things. And then I would say, like, on a deeper level, like, what I was getting at in that comment was, if I don't show up healthy and if I don't show up as a secure adult for my kids, a resilient adult, if I'm not modeling what resiliency looks like, then the rest of it doesn't matter. I could have a professional ballerina or a professional basketball player. They could all go to school on D1 scholarships. But if they don't want to be with me, if they don't, like, then who cares? I think that those are the things that I actually believe deeply matter to my kids. Is. Is my mom a person that I want to be with? Is my mom a person that I want to ask for advice? I don't always listen. I don't always want it when I don't ask for it. But is she someone I would ask for advice? Is she someone that I want to be with if I have. Have no friends to hang out with that day? [00:51:24] Speaker A: Right. [00:51:25] Speaker B: Like. Like, I understand my place in the hierarchy, but I. I want to be able to show up in those ways for my kids and for many reasons. That has been quite a journey for me. [00:51:45] Speaker A: I mean, there are 1 billion questions I could ask as a follow up to that, but I'm. And I know that this probably would mean something different every week of your life, but what does it mean this week? What does it mean this week? What are you doing for yourself this week to show up as a resilient adult? [00:52:06] Speaker B: This week, I'm being grace filled with myself. I think it's important to model messing up. [00:52:20] Speaker A: I model that really well a lot often. [00:52:25] Speaker B: I think for me, I could always say I modeled messing up because we all mess up. I didn't model being okay with it. And so I want model like, yeah, like I messed up. And. Yep, like, we're gonna figure it out. [00:52:41] Speaker A: Oopsie. Yeah. Yeah. [00:52:44] Speaker B: I want my kids to know, like, that that's a normal part of being an adult is messing up and not always getting it right. Whatever that looks like. Whether it's, you know, pulling into the gas station, that's the most. Like, you know, the other day, like, my daughter's like, why did you go to this gas station? She's 17. It's the most expensive. I'm like, I didn't even look. Honestly, it was just like back here. I'm like, you're right. I should have gone to a different one. She's like, you always talk to me about how to save money and being responsible. And I'm like, yep, you're right. I really messed up. And that wasn't top of my mind right now. And I should have asked you where to go. That's what I should have done. But like, something little like, that to like, big things. And so I think for me, I'm trying to be grace filled with myself and model that. Not saying, like, I'm an idiot when I miss a turn or, you know, just those little things. And then I'm also making time for myself and keeping those boundaries really clear. Like, hey, I'm not going to do this for you because I don't want to spend all day on Saturday being an Uber driver. That's like, this Saturday is homecoming. I don't want to drive 14 kids around and just be available to you all, all day long. So here's what I'm willing to do. Because on Saturday I'm also going to do these things for myself. I'm going to go to yoga. So I am unavailable for this hour. I am unavailable from, you know, so. So, yeah, modeling that I deserve care and time so that when they are parents, they know that they deserve that as well. [00:54:35] Speaker A: I'm thinking of you as you're talking. I'll be at yoga on Saturday too, so I'll think of you when I'm in my, in my class. I'm thinking of like, it's two sides maybe of the same coin. It's, it's taking yourself less seriously when you would have like, taken it all so seriously. You know, like, I should have known, I should have done this or that. And, and it's Connecting with a leadership book I've been reading recently. And it was talking about gender differences. And there, there was a guy who was writing this book. The woman was observing him over a weekend as he showed up and he'd forgotten pants. And so he was like, oopsie, I need to go buy some pants. And she was like, I always would never show up to a conference without pants, you know? And then he had gotten his flight wrong. And so, like, was like, oops, I've gotta leave early. Sorry, everybody. And like, he got a standing ovation as he was leaving the stage early from the conference. And she was like, I don't feel like I could ever get away with that. But she was pointing out that she took herself so seriously. It's given me a lot to think about because I think I teach, take myself very seriously too. And it's like some, they were literally teaching in the book to just say oopsie. Like, it doesn't have to be some giant, like, apology or character flaw. Like, I love that. Just take yourself less seriously. But then you are taking yourself really seriously. That's the other side of the coin of like, I matter my Needs matter. Caring for myself matters, and I'm going to take that seriously. So I love that. [00:56:23] Speaker B: Thanks. [00:56:25] Speaker A: What advice? Okay, as we're. As we're wrapping up, what advice do you have for maybe your admirers, the Amanda Purvis fan club that is, like, man, she's been doing this for so long. Like, I'm so tired. In this work that I'm doing, it's hard to see X, Y, and Z. It's hard to see the system that's broken. It's hard to see the effects of that every day. It's hard to wake up and keep working within those systems. What advice do you have for someone who really would like to stick with this for the long haul, professionally and personally? [00:57:08] Speaker B: Yeah, the first thing I'd say is, like, your bike. Like, this is really, really hard. And these broken systems are literally breaking us every day. And let's not pretend that that's not true. And so I would, I think, first say, like, it's okay to feel that way. And if we pretend like, we don't feel that way or we don't allow those feelings, like, there are days when I get so, like, something will happen and just the anger boils up, the injustice, like, the UNF and injustice of it all. And I think that we have to go with that, because if we try to push it down, like, that's when we have to stop. That's when it's like, I actually can't stuff anymore in me. I can't hold anymore. And so I would say, like, have your moments. Do it with safe people. Have the right, you know, all the things that we know that wisdom would tell us about those moments. But have them and not with yourself. Like, speak them out, write them out, whatever it is, to literally get it out of your body and metabolize it. At agci, we've done a lot of work with resiliency and specifically with caregiver resiliency. And so we have a whole index and basically in reunifying kids to their families. What we know is globally, like, the rate of reunifications lasting for a year is about 30 to 40%. And we've basically said that's not acceptable. We can't allow kids to keep being separated from their families because we're not doing this correctly. And so what we've begun doing is just like, spending so much time with caregiver resiliency. And as a result, our reunification rates are very different than the global standard. As we begin working on caregiver resiliency, our reunification rates are now at 98% post one year of reunification. Amanda, globally, what in the world? I know, it's unbelievable. So when we talk about resiliency, we kind of have some categories that we are focused on. And so when we think about long term, for those of us who are listening, that are caregivers, those of us who are professionals, what can we focus on so that we can be resilient and sustain this work? Our categories that we focus on are connected, which is our own attachment piece, our own network art. And I don't mean network. Like, I have a social worker and I have a casa, and I have a. But, like, who do you call at midnight when your kid hasn't shown up and you don't know what to do or. Right, Like. Like your network of people. Hopeful. Like, how are we infusing hope and the practice of hope into our lives? Informed. It's the information, right? We do have to have the information. If we don't have it, we don't do better until we know better. And so are we continually, which every listener here, I feel like we could say, check. Like, you're informed, right? Like you are steeping yourself in information. Compassionate. And so we really work with caregivers on a deep level of insight, first for themselves and their own stories, and then for the children that they care for. Adaptability. We talk about, like, chaos and rigidity. Like, there are like these. These things that we swing toward in times of stress and like, if we can stay in the middle in that flow where we can be adaptable. And what does it mean to be a caregiver who is adaptable? What does it mean to be a professional who's adaptable? What does that look like? Like, when, when we hear change, what, what happens in our bodies and, and how. How do we work on that? And then our last one is relentless. We talk about, like, what does it mean to be relentless? And like, what I always say is, that doesn't mean you can't quit. You can quit every night if you want. [01:01:45] Speaker A: I love that you said that. That's a joke that I have. I quit my job. Like, sometimes, every day. [01:01:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I tell my parents, like, like, like, I tell my kids, I am done parenting now, like, at around 7:30. And I'm like, I quit. [01:02:02] Speaker A: I'm done. My letter of resolution. Yes, yes. [01:02:06] Speaker B: So, like, what does it mean? Like, and for me, that's a boundary that helps me wake up in the morning and be like, okay, I can be a good mom today until 7:30. So like, like what does it mean to be relentless? And how do you, as an individual, as a caregiver, what does that look like for you? And so those are the areas that we focus on and that we provide support and services in for caregivers. And I just, I firmly believe that if we focus on caregivers, we will see kids succeed. And I put that in air quotes, right? We will see kids be the best version of who they are when they have caregivers who are resilient. [01:02:54] Speaker A: I'm kind of obsessed with that. I'm going to be thinking about that so much. Thank you for sharing those, those tenets of caregiver resiliency. I love that. Well, thank you so much for spending time with us today. It's always just, I learned so much from you, Amanda. It's so fun to just talk about life and how the things that matter to us and the things that matter to our kids, just how that all works together. So I'm really grateful for the work that you've done in our field. I'm grateful for the ways that you've trained so many professionals and held that weight of a translator of these ideas and principles. And it is really exciting to see how you're putting it into practice at AGCI and Changing Systems and goodness taking. I would say that your role in global impact seems to be having quite an impact. If you're changing percentages like that, and like you're saying, it's not systems are made of people, it is real people who are experiencing the positive impact that you're having. So I'm really grateful. [01:04:16] Speaker B: Well, I'm grateful for you guys at Empowered to Connect. We've been walking this walk, I would say hand in hand for many, many years. So I so appreciate you guys and thank you for having me. [01:04:32] Speaker A: We hope you enjoyed the episode. If you're interested in learning more, head to empoweredtoconnect.org for our library of resources, thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at etc, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empowered to Connect podcast. In the meantime, let's hold on to hope together.