[E248] The Attachment Style Quietly Shaping Your Faith with Melinda Cathey

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:05] Speaker B: To the Empowered to Connect podcast where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families and our communities. Hey everyone. I'm here today with Melinda Cathy and I am so excited to introduce you to her. She has done some work in our field and I'm excited about talking about attachment and faith, faith in the intersection of those things. Today with her, Melinda, welcome to the podcast. Tell us a little bit about yourself. [00:00:40] Speaker A: Hi Jesse. Thank you. It's really good to be here. I've been looking forward to this conversation with you. [00:00:46] Speaker B: Me too. [00:00:48] Speaker A: So, a few things about me. So I'm, I'm 66, so I have a lot of things about me. Where do you, where do you want me to start? [00:00:58] Speaker B: You have led a very interesting life. Tell, tell me kind of what brought you kind of to this work and you can share as you know, however you'd like to about that. I think there's probably some personal and professional threads you can pull on as many of us would. [00:01:15] Speaker A: Great. All right, well, so let me start with. Probably a good place to start is when my husband and I moved to Russia in 1992 as missionaries. So that was right when the Cold war ended for those who were around then, we moved there with my 14 month old daughter at the time. And at the time I had already been a therapist and I was working in a private practice in Chicago. And so I had to give that up when we went to Russia. And long story short, I ended up getting connected with the orphan population there in Russia and started and co founded with one orphan who had aged out of the system. We started a new kind of model of transitional care. There wasn't any such model as far as we knew. And so we started the first model in St. Petersburg that basically took these orphans who had aged out of the system about 16 or 17 and they weren't prepared at all for independent living. So for a lot of different reasons, they were just not invested in educationally, life skills, emotionally in any way. So we started this program to basically reparent them. It was a residential program and we wanted to reparent them and give them everything that they needed so that they could actually function successfully in society on their own. So we started that and that was in. When was that? 2001? Yeah, we just celebrated our 25th year this year, which was pretty cool. So about 12 years into this we were really pretty successful. We were about 85% successful, I would say, with those who had gone through our program that were actually really living on their own, independently. [00:03:43] Speaker B: And that was how you were defining success, that they were able to kind of move out and live on their own independently? [00:03:48] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, we had. We had different levels of success, you know, but that was kind of the basic one. Can they live on their own? Can they get a job? Do they have enough education to get a job? Do they have the sufficient life skills? They had no life skills. Do they know how to pay their bills? Do they know how to live as neighbors, how to cook their food, you know, all those kind of things so that they can actually function independently? That was our base level of success. And then we had more optimal levels that we were hoping for, but that was kind of our base. And so I think there was about 85% of the kids that were reaching that level. And we had independent assessments. So some it took two years. There were a couple that it took four years. Some of our first gals actually took five years because they had come straight off of the street, they had been trafficked, they had no education at all. So it was a wide variety of how long it took people to get there. Anyway, so it was this 10 to 15% of the kids that we couldn't seem to reach that was driving me crazy. And I had tried everything in my professional rabbit hat, and nothing seemed to work. And our Russian psychologist was also unable find anything to help these kids. And several people began to tell us, you know, guys, there are just some kids that are. That are hopeless, and you're just going to have to accept that and reach the ones that you can reach. And I could not accept that because that is not how I understand the God in scripture. I don't think anyone is outside of his reach. And I couldn't accept that. And so I just began to pray and ask for him to show me what I was missing. And so I got connected with Dr. Karen Purvis, who at the time was a research psychologist, and she was focusing her research on the foster and adoptive communities and was developing an intervention to help these kids called tbri, Trust Based Relational Intervention. So I had the opportunity to go and study under her, and it changed my life. So when I am studying now, by this time, I've been a therapist for about 25, 27 years already. And I'm. I'm studying this material. It was both online and then we had to do some in person there at tcu. But when I'm studying online in my office and my husband would come up and interrupt me, talk to me about whatever, and I would be weeping and he's like, what's going on? Are you okay? I thought you were studying. And I'm like, I am studying. I am studying and I'm weeping and I'm weeping. And this happened on multiple occasions. And I found the material was not just more head knowledge, but it was deeply, deeply impacting the core of me in ways that I didn't even know needed to be reached. You know, like I said, I'd been a therapist for a long time. I'd been in therapy. I had, you know, a lot of education, and I thought I was doing great. And this was reaching. Parts of me that I didn't even know were still wounded. And so it was personally very transformative. So I went back after I completed this training and I trained my staff in Russia, and the same thing happened. And so it was a game changer for our program. And so it began to expose the wounds within all my staff. They began to get healthier. And then it changed the way that we worked with the kids. We began to see better results. We had two different programs, affiliate programs in different parts of Russia, and went and trained them. Same thing happened. And so the president of my mission agency, who's there in Memphis, Wayne Sneed, he said, well, you can't keep this a secret. He said, you're going to train all of our ministry partners within orphanos, which at the time was 35 different countries. And every ministry partner was somehow involved with working with orphans or children at risk. And so I began then. When was that? 2016, I think. I began to train globally mission partners, primarily with orphan oaths, but some outside working with orphans and vulnerable children. And I. I've seen the same thing. You know, everybody comes to the training because they're working with these kids. They love these kids, but they've come to some crisis where they're like, I don't know what to do. Help. Help. And. And so they. They're in crisis. But what begins to happen is they first begin to see their own wounding and their own issues within attachment and how that is impacting their ability to help these kids. So all the workers get healthy first, then we focus on the kids. And so anyway, how I wrote this book, that was a long segue into this, but as I was beginning to continuing to study and I'm continuing to have my devotions, and so I always kind of have on my desk, I've got my Bible open and. And some neuroscience book or something, and I'm constantly, you know, reading and studying both. And the more I would Study attachment, the more the Lord would just show me neuroscience and scripture. And it just kind of blew my mind. And I began sharing some of the insights within my trainings. And I would have people ask me, well, where can I read more about this? And I'm like, well, I don't know. These are just things that the Lord has shown me. And I had multiple people say, you need to write on that. And so I finally decided, okay, I'm going to write on it. So that's how this all started. Yes. [00:11:22] Speaker B: Yes. And so you have written a book. Tell us about the book. What did you set out to do? What's it called? What was the process like? Just what. I mean, I'm sure you even learned so much more as you were doing that. [00:11:36] Speaker A: Yes. So the. The book is called Deeper Than Belief, and so it's understanding how our childhood attachment impacts our ability to trust God and others. And so it's really about understanding attachment, and it is about understanding kind of the nuance between differentiating trust from belief. So I think that's a very important nuance, particularly in the faith community. And so I wanted to address kind of those issues and kind of just share, you know, some of the. It was a compilation of the things that I had been sharing in my training that people had asked me to write. And I had little sticky notes everywhere, all over the place of things that I had shared over the years and kind of brought those together, and that's how the book was formed. [00:12:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. I don't want for you to have to read the whole book to us, although I'm sure we would all love that so much. And I have really enjoyed getting to read from your book. I'm wondering when you start pulling on that thread of. Of belief and trust, what did you find to be, you know, the major difference? And what about. Yeah, let's start there. I just have a lot of questions for you. [00:13:10] Speaker A: Yeah, no, so belief. You know, I just. I thought a lot about this, and as I would work with people and I would try to figure out where they were getting stuck and what was going on and what was happening in my own life. And I would see, you know, it's. It's really easy for us, particularly in the faith community, to say we believe. And I think that our English biblical translations, sometimes we miss some of the essence of really, the Hebrew words. Our English translations don't really pick up, you know, fully the meaning. And I think this is one of those situations. So when I. When we talk about belief, we're really talking about? Are you telling me the truth? Okay, that. That's what that means. Are you telling me the truth? And so trust is a whole different rich concept that is much more relational. So belief is purely cognitive, whereas trust is relational. So trust has to come from experiences. Like, I can't trust you unless I have some experience with you to know whether or not you're trustworthy. Okay. And so it's based on relationship, it's based on experience, and it's based on [00:14:49] Speaker B: me [00:14:53] Speaker A: knowing that you are good. Okay. So I can believe you. And, like, what? One of the examples that I. I gave in the book is you might tell me some gossip, and I happen to know that that's true. So I believe you. I'm like, yeah, that's true, but I'm not going to trust you with my secrets. Right? [00:15:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:16] Speaker A: So trust is. I'm willing to depend on you. I'm willing to share my inner heart with you. And that is way different than belief. And so our ability to trust is, I think, the critical component in scripture that we miss more than belief. God is asking us to trust him, which is why he says we can't enter his kingdom unless we become like children. That's getting at the essence of trust. He also has a scripture that I think is so profound, where he says, you say you believe in God. Well, good for you. Even the demons believe. Okay, so he's not talking about a cognitive ascent all throughout Scripture. He is inviting us to a heart connection with him, a trust, a dependency on him. And so that's some of the differences. [00:16:29] Speaker B: I love that so much. I especially love how neuroscience has led you deeper into scripture, deeper into pulling these apart and thinking through them. Why do you think Christians sometimes pit one against the other? And how have you been able to kind of marry the two, integrate the two into your life? [00:16:55] Speaker A: Oh, that's such a great question. Well, I think, you know, as a whole, psychology, you know, to be fair to. To Christians that are suspect on the whole, psychology has not been the greatest friend of the faith community. It's not uncommon that psychology will mock, you know, a biblical worldview. And so that makes it difficult, right? That. That makes it difficult. I'm trying to think here. So another reason I think, is that, you know, there are. There tends to be what I would say, faulty teaching within the church. I think. I think there's both sides. I think you have psychology which tends to dismiss both the spiritual nature of humanity. Right. Psychology tends to look at humanity more like just humanistically or with the medical model as a biological unit devoid of any spiritual nature. And they mock a biblical worldview. So you've got that side of it. You also have what I would say is faulty teaching within the church, where there's this, I think, belief that if someone has an emotional problem or mental problems, that they just need to pray more, they need to memorize more scripture. And so both of those are problematic. And so for me, you know, I don't know. I, I, I think very early on, and I attribute this to my father, because he was a dentist, but he was a scientist at heart, and he was always studying science, and we would have these rich conversations together. And he was also a man of faith, and so he would always encourage me to ask questions, whether it was of science or of faith. And he said, melinda, never be afraid to ask questions because the truth will always win out. And so he was a very curious man, and I am a very curious person. And so, and I have always had a bent towards science, and it's, it's never been an issue for me because I think they inform each other. So science has its limitations. And I look at science through a biblical worldview to say, what do we know of science? What do we not know of science? What is appearing in science that is clearly against scripture? That I go, there's probably something we don't know yet, you know, or what in science is actually informing scripture that is, that is filling out things I read in scripture and go, oh, my gosh, this is what he's talking about in scripture. I don't know if that makes sense. [00:20:25] Speaker B: No, it does. And I think for those of us who have rich lives of faith and also find ourselves excited and learning and growing in psychology and what it has to teach us, those are some of the things that you're talking about. I mean, that's where it lies. It's, it's, it's finding kind of the faulty teaching and on both sides, but also what is of value on both sides and how they are actually related. [00:20:58] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:21:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:00] Speaker A: Yeah. That's a great summary. [00:21:04] Speaker B: We make a good pair, then. [00:21:05] Speaker A: Yes. [00:21:07] Speaker B: I want to go back to this kind of quandary you had as you were serving in mission work. I, I was moved to tears when you're talking about that. 10 to 15% of kids, you know, on one hand, you've got 85 to 95% of young adults kind of moving out of these, out of this program that you're leading successfully. And, and that could have been enough for you. You could have pat yourself on the back and been like, this is a pretty great rate of success. But to keep going for that 10 to 15%, and prayerfully to find someone also who was a scientist and a believer, working to uncover strategies that worked for. For kids and young adults and humans. I'm curious. You talked about kind of the process of first working with wounded staff and caregivers. And I think probably a lot of our listeners can relate to that, or if they can't, then as they listen more, they might be able to tell me why starting there is so important to start with the staff, to start with the caregiver, if you're trying to reach that 10 to 15%. So why would you start with that piece? [00:22:35] Speaker A: Right, right. Wow. That is another such a great question. So, you know, I don't think that I intentionally did that. It just happened. [00:22:49] Speaker B: And so because you found yourself weeping, you found yourself being touched as you were learning, right? [00:22:56] Speaker A: Yes. [00:22:57] Speaker B: The same was true for me. [00:22:59] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. So. And it's true for most people. So what happened was, you know, as I began to train, my initial thought was I understood their angst. I understood the crisis that they were in when they would come to my training. Like, they're going back and they're dealing with kids in crisis, kids that are destroying the facilities, that can't go to school, that can't be in relationships. There's, like, real crises. And they're wanting to know, melinda, you need to give me an answer that I can apply tonight or tomorrow when I go back to the facility. And I got that, because that was me when I went to the training. And so I understand their angst. And so when we first started the training, I was trying to meet that. But I would say to them the same thing that Dr. Purvis would say to us, hang on, hang on, I'm going to get there. Trust me, you have to go through the process, and we'll get there. But if I just start there, what I'm telling you to do isn't going to make any sense. So you have to go through the process. So as I'm going through this process of unfolding this intervention to them, which starts with the attachment cycle, the same thing began to happen to them that happened to me. And so it just happened where I could see, oh, my gosh, this is landing on them. We're all so wounded. And in part, this is what draws us. Right. To work with this population. [00:24:53] Speaker B: So whether we realize it or not. [00:24:56] Speaker A: Right. Correct. This. Correct. And. And so that was a piece of it. But then the other part was we do a lot of. In my training, there's a lot of experiential role plays and stuff as we're unpacking and learning the principles and so as we're learning the principles, you know, of how do we connect with the kids, how do we empower the kids, how do we correct the kids? And in the role plays, Some of the ways the staff would respond in the role plays were horrifying. And I thought, oh my goodness, they are the problem. They are the problem. They don't know it, but they are triggering these kids right and left. And a lot of it is, you know, with a lot of the non verbal stuff, a lot of threatening words, a lot of punitive words, a lot of tone of voice that is very threatening, body postures that are very threatening. We all just do what was modeled to us, right? We're trying to do the best that we can. And so, and these, these precious caregivers are tired. They're doing a very, very difficult job. We all know this, right? It is an extremely difficult job. And they are tired. They're doing the best that they can, but their stuff comes out right, like for all of us. And so this is the stuff that was coming out. And so I found myself going, okay, time out, stop. We got to back up the train and we got to work a lot more on us because we are actually the problem here. We are, we are not helping healing these kids. We're actually retriggering them. And that's when I kind of change the focus on working with the staff about our own stuff. [00:27:11] Speaker B: Let's talk about what some of that could be. So, you know, when we talk about the attachment cycle and we'll just, let's just talk through it together. That would be, you know, a need presents itself. A child has a need. The need is expressed. There's some type of, yeah, there's a need that is expressed. And in the process of expressing that need, there's an opportunity, right? The caregiver has the opportunity to make meet, to see that need, to meet that need. And then the child is able to regulate and experience that need being met. And trust is developed in that caregiver. [00:27:54] Speaker A: Right, but correct. [00:27:55] Speaker B: When that is not happening, what is happening instead? [00:28:00] Speaker A: Right? [00:28:01] Speaker B: Let's talk through that. And, and I would love for you to even connect it spiritually as we're talking about that. Like as we're thinking about the different levels of this and, and for our listeners, you know, we talk about whole person Needs. You don't. You have all kinds of needs. And some of those needs are spiritual needs. And. And so we cannot separate this part of us from all of our needs. But, you know, as we are. As we are experiencing a need, if that need isn't seen or met by a primary caregiver, then what ends up happening instead? Melinda, talk through that with us and the spiritual implications of that in our lives. [00:28:47] Speaker A: Okay, If I don't answer all that, you can. [00:28:49] Speaker B: Yeah. I gave you a big question, and just for our listeners, you know, I sent a list to Melinda before we met, and this is not on the list. I'm going so rogue. So thanks for just conversing with me. We're going to have our own interesting conversation here. [00:29:06] Speaker A: I love it. I love it. Okay, so. All right, so let's talk about the attachment potential attachment styles. There's four. Right, right. And. And you just kind of highlighted a secure attachment. So if I, as a child have needs, and I. Let's think of a baby. Let's think of. Of an infant. Okay, So I don't have words yet. That I have is a cry. That's. That's all I got to express a need. I don't have any idea really what the need is, or I don't have any capacity to meet that need at all. I just know that my body feels stressed and is out of sorts, and I cry. Okay, so then you as the caregiver, your role is to pay attention to that cry and to meet that need. Okay, so first, let's just get it out there. There's no perfect parent. [00:30:07] Speaker B: Amen. [00:30:08] Speaker A: Okay. None of us had one. None of us are one. So let's just. Let's just get that out there. [00:30:14] Speaker B: That's right. [00:30:16] Speaker A: So. But the ideal is that as a pattern, the primary caregiver would meet, would meet that need in an adequate way, in a predictable way, and in an emotional way. Okay. And you kind of summarize that. So if that's happening, then the baby is able to have a really healthy identity. Wow. I have a voice. I have agency. I can do something to get my needs met. My needs, obviously, are important to somebody else, and so I can trust people. I can feel regulated. The stress that I had in my body is now calmed, and I feel safe in the world. I want to connect with other people, all these really great things. Okay, so spiritually, I would say that, okay, I'm going to go rogue here a little bit, and if I get off track, bring me back. [00:31:25] Speaker B: Okay, let's do it. I'm up for the challenge. Let's do it. [00:31:29] Speaker A: Okay, so. So I think the attachment cycle, for me personally is the most beautiful metaphor of how the father wants to relate to us. So he is spirit. He understands like it's difficult for us to understand spirit. Right. But he gives us all kinds of physical metaphors in his creation. And I think that this is one of the most profound and beautiful to show us who he is and how he desires to connect with us. So a secure attachment style where the needs are met in those ways is actually perfect love. And he is the only one that gives us perfect love. Okay, so we get these messages. Let's say our needs are met this way. Okay, what are the messages that actually get wired into the brain and the body of this little infant? So the messages that get, get wired in there are, I am seen, I'm heard, I'm comforted. I'm not abandoned. I'm not alone. I'm delighted in. What else am I missing? There's seven of them. Well, I remember the other two. These. But these beautiful messages, right? And so we feel great about ourselves, we feel great about other people in the world. And this is perfect love. Okay, so now that's secure attachment. So let's say you're that baby again. You have a need, you're crying, and for whatever reason, your caregiver cannot pay attention to your emotional needs. They can only pay attention to your physical needs. And there's a lot of different reasons why that could happen. Typically, the caregiver has been wounded themselves and they don't really pay attention to their own emotions. They don't know how to deal with others emotions. The emotional world is very uncomfortable. So they just kind of pay attention to the instrumental or the physical needs. You know, do you have enough clothes? Do you have enough food, you know, shelter? And so if you got that, I'm going to let you cry and you deal with it. So how many times have we heard or maybe even said, you know what? If you want something to cry about, I'll give you something to cry about. [00:34:22] Speaker B: I do not know of what you speak. I've never. I'm just kidding. We have heard this. Maybe we've said it before. [00:34:28] Speaker A: Maybe, Maybe. Okay, so what happens then is now the child, right? They're. They're a little baby. So this just happens subconsciously and this gets wired very, very deeply into the core of their being. That their emotions, emotions don't matter. Like nobody's going to pay attention to their emotions. They don't matter. So you just kind of learn to distract yourself from your emotions. And you can do that in all kinds of ways. You can do that by becoming, you know, a workaholic or, you know, diving into something that's constructive, that distracts you, or you can do it in very destructive ways. You know, anything to distract you from your emotional life. And so then you become kind of task oriented, very task oriented. And I would say, you know, half human, because you don't. And, and that. This was me, by the way. So this was me where you just, you don't connect emotionally. You can connect very good cognitively, you can be a functional person, but that emotional component is missing. That's an avoidant attachment. And so you can see how that would translate in your relationship with God to where you would say, well, God only cares about my behaviors. He's not interested in my internal world. I feel my internal world feels invisible to him. I'm not sharing my heart with him or with anybody, and I'll just deal with that myself. Or maybe I'll distract even myself from myself. So you just kind of work on the basis of tasks and behaviors. If you had a caregiver that was not predictable for whatever reason, maybe they had substance abuse, maybe they weren't always there, you know, for whatever reason, they were not able to meet your needs in a predictable way, then that little baby is left in a state of anxiety because they don't know when they have a need. Is this a time my need is going to be met or not? Is my caregiver present and available to me or not? So there's this constant state of anxiety and they're needing. These are babies that end up being the fussiest, the hardest to calm. Because when they're calm, they don't get any attention. It's like the squeaky wheel gets the grease. So they have learned I better cry long and hard. That's the only time I get paid attention to. And so that is an ambivalent attachment. And again, you can picture what that's like with God. You know, God may have been has a history of faithfulness with you, and yet every time you have a need, you're not sure is he going to show up this time or not. Like, yeah, he was there in the past, yet last week he was so faithful. I prayed and he answered. It was amazing. But I have another need this week. Is he going to be there now? And so our relationship with God is very kind of anxiety based. We find ourselves trying to beg him, manipulate him, bribe him, you Know, making a lot of vows, I'll never do this, I will do this, whatever in order to get him to pay attention and meet our needs. So that's ambivalent. And then the last one is a disorganized where if you have a caregiver that is pretty much either threatening or neglectful, then you as an infant are just left in this horrible state of chronic stress with no ability to get your needs met at all. Relationships, people, the world are very, very threatening and confusing to you and you just kind of shut down. And so, you know, because especially if you have a caretaker that is threatening, you don't want to be anywhere near that caretake taker. Right. And so who is more threatening than an all powerful God who can send you to hell? And so that God is absolutely terrifying. And even the mention of him or like a church could be extremely triggering if this is who you are and this is your view of who God is. So you really want to keep us far away from him as possible. So that's kind of a summary that is fascinating. [00:39:48] Speaker B: I, I learned about attachment in my human development degree, and it has continued to just, just fascinate me over the years. As, And I'm, I'm similar, Melinda, just in. As it has started to shine a light on my own life, my own patterns, my. Yeah, it, it just takes on new meaning. I wonder, for, for those 10 to 15% of kids that you were having trouble with, how does this all relate? What were you finding? You, you shared that oftentimes there was a maybe a wounded caregiver or staff member that was part of the equation. Right, right. And that would have been from the owner own, their own patterns and history that they were bringing forward with them. What, I mean, what was part of the component of bringing healing back to that place? [00:40:54] Speaker A: Well, so the 10 to 15% of the kids that we were not able to reach, I now understand, was related to their trauma, their. Very, very difficult beginnings in life and having situations where they were not cared for, abused, neglected, threatened. And so their ability to trust another human being was zero. So I show up and I'm like, well, I'm a safe person. I actually care about you. What? You know, why are you giving me this attitude like, what is wrong with you? Right. They don't know me from Adam and they don't trust me. So trust is something that has to be earned. And so I think that's a key thing, is that when we show up in the lives of broken people and we know our intentions towards them, we know we, like, actually care for them. We want good for them. We're trying to heal them. We're giving our whole life to them. Like these brats. What is wrong with them? How come they're not grateful? They're not grateful for everything I'm doing for them? Well, no, because they don't know my intentions. They have to. They have to experience. They have to have corrective experiences. And so everything about my interaction with them has to correct their lens that. That people are out to get them and harm them and hurt them. And no one actually cares about their needs. No one is going to be there to advocate for them or to care for their needs or listen to their voice or care about their internal reality. And so we have to be willing to meet them where they're at and bring them forth. And it's. It's depending on their level of wounding. You know, it takes. It takes time. And so. And it takes a lot of energy. And so that's what we have to be willing. We have to be willing to lay down our agendas and our timetables because they don't work on our agenda or our timetable. And so we have to meet them where they're at. We have to understand their lens, and we have to be that corrective experience to show them a new reality and give them a new lens. [00:44:06] Speaker B: I love that phrase you're using, corrective experience, because I think, you know, when you think about the behaviors that you were describing, that people were coming to your trainings and saying, you tell me right now how to go back and correct this behavior that's happening, you know, to correct the destruction and the drama and the dysregulation and all of the things they were seeing. You're saying it's not correcting the behavior so much as correcting their experiences. How are they experiencing life? How are they experiencing themselves? How are they experiencing you? Right, yeah. And I'm even thinking of the spiritual correlations of that. So often we're thinking about the behaviors that we need to bring spiritually. And yet it is those experiences that you described that build trust. [00:45:10] Speaker A: Right. [00:45:11] Speaker B: The experiences in our. In our faith and in experiencing a God who is faithful to us. [00:45:20] Speaker A: Right, right. So on the spiritual front, you know, I think one of the most intriguing elements of the attachment cycle is to understand that. That, you know, God on purpose puts us in situations of being utterly vulnerable and dependent. Is there anything more terrifying? [00:45:51] Speaker B: This was life altering for me to realize that God created people with limitations on purpose. Like in the garden, in this Perfect created world that people had limitations. I was like, what I had. I'd never played that all the way out. [00:46:14] Speaker A: Yeah, and we never outgrow it. And I think we, you know, I think that is one of the things as humanity that we are constantly fighting against. Yeah, we hate the. The fact that we have to be dependent on someone else. [00:46:30] Speaker B: Yeah, we hate that. [00:46:32] Speaker A: And we fight against that. And we do not. We all want to be self sufficient. Right. And nope, he did this on purpose so that we need him, and therefore we have to cry out to him just like that baby. And it's in our constant needs. This is the other thing. I have two grandkids, so I've kind of gotten to see this all over again freshly. And, you know, the. The number of times that a baby cries is, like, ridiculous. [00:47:04] Speaker B: We kind of scrub it from our memories after we've passed through those seasons, haven't don't we? [00:47:11] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. They just cry and cry and cry and cry. Their needs are endless. And. And so, you know, I read some of the parables about the way the Lord wants us to pray to him, and it's just like that little baby, where he wants us to be relentless. Relentless. And I'm like, okay, I can do that. You know, I will wear you out. There's one scripture in one of the translations, I love it, where he says, wear me out with your prayers. And I'm like, okay, I can do that. I can actually wear you out. [00:47:48] Speaker B: I have that skill set. Yes. [00:47:50] Speaker A: I have so many needs, and they. They are endless. So I will wear you out with my prayers. And so as we are crying out to him, it gives him an opportunity to give us corrective experiences. How else are we going to know that he wants to and will meet our needs? How else will we know that we have to have needs and cry out to him? Use our voice. Right. He says, you have not because you ask not. He wants us to use our voice because he has given us agency. So as we use our voice that he gave us, then he can be. Meet our needs and show us his. His love and care and faithfulness. I just. That just wipes me out every time I think about that. It's just so beautiful. [00:48:47] Speaker B: I'm. I'm also thinking about how you had been practicing for 26, 27 years before you were starting to learn this, and so you expressed that you identified with that avoidant attachment style. I do, too. I've shared that on this podcast. And I'm just curious, Melinda, as someone, as a psychologist, who is that far into your professional career, which, let's name that we can be experts in our field and still have trouble our own selves with identifying our emotional needs, meeting emotional, expressing emotional needs. Right? Like, I'm assuming that was what was happening for you as part of that weeping as you were learning more. How do we go about changing that? Especially for those of us caregivers or professionals who are far into our careers and, and have these patterns, it's like, how do you start, how do you start going about changing that? [00:49:54] Speaker A: Well, so I think, you know, I, I do have a couple of chapters in the book that kind of give some very specific things. But you know, the beginning is awareness, right? So I think we all need to, we all need to go back and, and learn the attachment style or revisit it and say, okay, where am I? Where am I hung up? Where am I wounded? And it, you might have a combination of a couple different attachment styles. It's not necessarily, you know, in a silo, perfectly one of the four. But what are the, what are the aspects that you can resonate with and say, oh yeah, this is, this is limited me or this is where I get stuck in relationships. And if you don't know, I guarantee you, you ask a significant other. Ask a friend, ask your children. If you have teenage children or older, ask them, they will tell you. [00:50:55] Speaker B: Truth tellers, yes, they will tell you. [00:50:59] Speaker A: Ask your spouse, you know, where, where am I coming short? Where am I limited? Where am I missing you? And so it always starts with awareness. [00:51:13] Speaker B: I like to give the illustration of a friend gave this to me actually after I had learned more about my own attachment style and I was sitting with a friend who practices therapy and we were just talking about this and I said, I do not know what to do with this information. Like, I don't even know what do to do next. And she said, Jesse, once the lights are on, you can't not see. She was like, just, just practice seeing with the lights on. And I, I loved that illustration. It was like walk, walk through the rooms of your mind and your life and just look at things with the lights on. And they looked different. You know, I was noticing different things. It was just showing up. And for a minute before I could do anything about it, all I could do was just name the awareness. Like, okay, I'm talking out loud to you. I'm responding to something you said and I'm noticing that I'm wanting to make a joke right now, but instead I'm going to listen more and that was all I could do for a minute, was just be aware of it. I didn't know how to change it. [00:52:25] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. No, that's it. So that is so beautiful. I love that. Walking through the rooms with the lights on, and that's. That's really profound. And, yeah, that awareness is where it starts. And then when we can look at the characteristics of the secure attachment, I think we just, you know, we can't take them all on at once. So we have to figure out. I mean, pick one, you know? So for me, one of the hardest ones was using my voice, because I. I didn't really have anyone paying attention to my voice, so I lost my voice. Well, when you don't have an. Your voice, all you have is behaviors. So I would have these unhelpful behaviors to try to get my needs met because I didn't know how to use my voice. So that, for me, was the first focus. You know, I got to learn how to use my voice. And, you know, when you're learning, you don't do it right initially. Right. And. And it just takes time. So all of the skills, you just go down the list and say, what are the skills of a secure attachment? Pick one and start working on it. Working on it with a friend, working on it with a therapist. However, you need to work on it and just keep going. [00:53:52] Speaker B: I love that. I'm curious, how is this an invitation to go deeper into our spirituality for those listeners who maybe. Maybe they don't explore their faith or maybe they've been traumatized by, you know, people of faith in the past, what is the opportunity? What's the invitation here as we start exploring our attachment styles? What's. What's the spiritual invitation underneath it as well? [00:54:30] Speaker A: So, wow, that's a very important question. So for people who are struggling maybe with trusting God, and you're saying they have maybe some church wounds or wounds from believers, and sadly, that's a lot of people. [00:54:49] Speaker B: I think it is. [00:54:51] Speaker A: I think the first thing would be, is to consider that Jesus is very different from the people that have wounded you who claim his name, and to realize that there is no one who says they're a believer who is perfect. You know, people of faith recognize that they're sinners and that they need a savior, and that is why they are coming to Jesus, not because they're perfect and they have it all together. So I would say to those people, understand that the people who wounded you, whether intentionally or unintentionally, are wounded themselves, and they are not Jesus. I think that's a critical thing. And then to be willing to say, okay, can I go to Jesus and try this with him? You know, and, and so if you, you know, if you have a visual that they have, you know, people on listening can get, or in my book, there's all kinds of ways that they can get a visual of what the attachment cycle is. And for them to say, okay, would I be willing to come to the Lord as a little child and say, if you are this good God and you do want to meet my needs, and then try something that is not a huge need, like not the biggest need, the scariest need, like something really small to start with and ask him to meet that need and to meet you and to show, to give you corrective experiences and to go to him directly. I always encourage people, pick up a Bible, start reading, start reading in the book of John, ask, ask a believer or go online and say, you know, what are the books of Bible? If I want to learn about Jesus and, and start reading about him so that you can get a different lens of who he is than maybe people who have, have wounded you. [00:57:32] Speaker B: That's great advice. I'm thinking about. And we will link to. We have free downloadables of the attachment cycle. We have animates as well on YouTube so we'll link to those in our show notes. But that has been. I love that you say to take a look at the, the secure attachment cycle and just even observe it. Because I think looking at that, for me, you know, when you talk about one of the first things you chose to start working on was using your voice that is like, how, how do I express this need and how do I trust that that will be received? That, that. Right. And. And when it's not, when it's not received by a human person that has missed it for whatever reason. [00:58:27] Speaker A: Right. [00:58:28] Speaker B: What we say ends up happening is that the child is left with no response but rage, apathy, or anxiety. [00:58:38] Speaker A: Yes. [00:58:39] Speaker B: And I think a lot of us feel those things towards God. [00:58:43] Speaker A: Yes. [00:58:45] Speaker B: And yet we are not. We're misplacing those feelings. We're feeling those feelings towards our caregivers, towards our histories, towards our experiences. And we need to allow God to give us corrective experiences. [00:59:03] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, right. Right. And so, you know, there's again, I think I, I might have said this scripture earlier, but for me it's been such a healing scripture of where he says, perfect love casts out fear. And I had read that so many times, you know, memorized it. And as I'm studying The attachment cycle, it just had a whole different layer for me of realizing, you know, because if we don't have a secure attachment at. At some level, like you said, we're living in fear, which. Which results in usually rage or anger. Right. Can be an apathy, but usually it starts with anger or rage. And so. And we have to meet our own needs. And so this fear controls us. Well, if we have perfect love, our needs are all met. That casts out fear. It casts it out because our needs are met. We feel like someone has our back, we're safe in the world. And that. That is Jesus. That's what he wants to do. And he says, I am perfect love. He's the only one that can cast out that fear. No human being is going to do that perfectly for us. And so anyway, for me, that has a whole nother level of maybe giving people who are really, really scared to try this to say, okay, consider this is what he says. This is who he says he is. He says he is perfect love, and he will cast out your fear. [01:00:56] Speaker B: So I want to name something real that is kind of coming through from this conversation we've had, which is one of the faulty teachings you described from the church was that we can pray things away, that if we have physical problems or mental problems, that spiritual answers will cover them all. And I want to make sure that we're not giving that faulty teaching in the way that we're talking about this. So tell. Tell our listeners the difference between that and what we are recommending. It's a tricky one. [01:01:40] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Jesse, I'm gonna have to think about that one for a second. [01:01:47] Speaker B: I trust you to be able to do it because. Because you are a psychologist, because you. Like, we believe in therapy, and we believe in, you know, medicine, and we believe in these. Like, if. If we're thirsty, we can't pray for the thirst to go away. We have to. That's a great drink a couple of water. Right? So let's integrate this all together. [01:02:13] Speaker A: Okay. Wow. Okay. So first of all, let me say that I am a very firm believer in prayer. And I have seen so many prayers answered. And so I am a very, very firm believer in prayer. And so for me, it's. It's both. And like, yes, I'm gonna ask the Lord for. For everything, but, okay, let's. Let's do the. The drink of water. Okay. Having clean water sources. I'm going to pray for the Lord. Lord, would you allow me to have clean water sources? Because that's Not a given. Right. Especially in a lot of different places of the world. But then I have to go to the refrigerator and get my filtered water. Like, I'm not going to expect him to, I don't know, drop it from the sky or something. And so particularly with emotional or mental issues. Yeah, I would pray about it, but then I would also do something else. I would also go talk to a friend or a therapist or look at the potential of I might need some medication or doing all of the other tools that we know are effective in helping us with our emotional issues, because [01:03:42] Speaker B: these two belong to God. Right. He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Scripture says it all belongs to Him. And so the way he meets our needs are through all of these things. [01:03:56] Speaker A: Yes. [01:03:57] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. I just wanted to put a fine point on it, because I think for anyone that was feeling a disconnect between those things, it was. Yeah, it is both. It is all it is. But to believe that, you know, I mentioned this before. We hit record today, Melinda. But to believe that God is the source, that he is our source, and to be able to trust him, it's, it's such an important thing, I think. And, yeah, I love that. [01:04:31] Speaker A: So I'll just mention, you know, one other thing that you're making me think of. I, I, I always get pushback, particularly from pastors when I'm, when I'm training, and they would say I focus too much time on emotions, you know, and I'm like, okay. And I'm like, well, so do you think like that God created just our left hemisphere of the brain, or did he also create the right hemisphere? And they laugh and they're like, well, that's a stupid question. I'm like, okay, well, so he created the whole brain, Right. Well, guess what the rest right hemisphere does, you know, and, and did, you know. And guess what the amygdala does, you know, it, it regulates emotions. So are these created by him or not? And, and so he, God is a whole brain God. Yes. He's the left and the right. And, you know, and if we don't deal with our emotions healthily, guess what? It shows up in our bodies and it makes us physically ill. Okay, so what does that say? [01:05:43] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. [01:05:45] Speaker A: So, so, yes, we want to deal with not only just praying, but also praying, but we want to deal with the realities that we know from neuroscience, from medicine, from, you know, all these things of what happens to our bodies and our minds when we don't deal with these things healthily and use the tools that research has shown are helpful. [01:06:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. That's good. And I'm thinking about, you know, the. You were doing so many good things. You were meeting so many needs of the young adults in that program that you built, you know, back in Russia, where you were scaffolding skills and. And teaching them really important life skills. That was. If you had stopped doing that, then 85 to 90% of the people would not be getting what they needed either. It was just. That's all of the components needed to be put into place and the building, building the trust and completing attachment cycles and going back and having those corrective experiences. It was all part of it, and it was all needed. Well, what advice do you have for parents who might be listening or maybe pastors even, that are desiring to share faith with children who maybe have experienced trauma or adversity in the past, maybe through adoption and foster care or maybe through other things? [01:07:25] Speaker A: Yeah, so I thought a lot about this because, you know, learning this stuff has shared the. Has changed the way that I enter into conversations, these conversations with others. So kind of the paradigm that I use now is the attachment cycle. And I would encourage pastors and parents that we start with God's desire to connect with us instead of starting with sin and behavior that we start with. His desire is to connect with us. I mean, my goodness, that's what the whole incarnation is about. You know, why did he die? So that he could connect with us. And he came so that he could connect. That's the whole thing. He wants to be in relationship with us, but when we don't trust him, when we push him away, then we can't be in relationship with Him. And so we have to understand, what is it that we don't trust? Why don't we trust him? And maybe going back to the attachment cycle with them and saying, would you like to trust God? What would it look like for you to trust God? But that's how I would do it, is I start with his. His desire. And his heart is for love. And again, you can't. You cannot trust. So if we're calling these people to trust, you can't trust somebody that you don't think is good. You just can't. And nor should you. You know, and so we have to start with God is good. He loves you. He wants to connect with you. This is his heart. And. And if before we're going to call them to trust him, that's good. [01:09:28] Speaker B: Hey, thank you so much for just, you know, tangling through the heavy questions. I brought you today. I did. I did not bring you a simple assignment. [01:09:38] Speaker A: You're not easy, Jesse. [01:09:40] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it wasn't easy, but I. I knew you were up to task. Ask Melinda, because I. What you've written in your book is so thoughtful. I hope everyone will read it. We'll put a link in the show, notes to how they can access it and your heart for truly, your dad started something beautiful in you to give you that heart of curiosity, to give you a mind that was curious and to just keep drilling down below the surface, because I think these are things that are important to people and we don't even often know why. I was talking with a friend yesterday even, and I had said something, and she. We. We were talking about a situation in my life, and I was feeling afraid of it. It was circumstances that were overwhelming to me, and she asked me a question that was spiritual nature. And I said, okay, I know, I know, I know. If I say I believe what I believe, then I have to play that all the way out because it was. It was touching on my fear and my fear to trust that God was going to be with me in that overwhelming circumstance that. That. That I was already being carried. And. Yeah, it's. It's just part of our daily life in experiencing these things. [01:11:04] Speaker A: It is. Yeah. We don't get away from it. We don't get away from it. [01:11:08] Speaker B: Yeah. But I guess that neither do babies, neither do children. And that is what it is, as you say, to. To enter the kingdom of heaven like a child. Yeah. [01:11:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:22] Speaker B: I really appreciate you spending time with us on the podcast and thank you. [01:11:27] Speaker A: It's been a delight. It's been. You really challenged me, so I. I love it. Thank you. It's been a joy. I love what you guys and it's been a privilege. So thank you for having me. [01:11:39] Speaker B: Thank you for joining us and we'll stay in touch. [01:11:43] Speaker A: Okay, let's do. [01:11:49] Speaker B: We hope you enjoyed the episode. If you're interested in learning more, head to empoweredtoconnect.org for our library of resources. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at. Etc. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empowered to Connect podcast. In the meantime, let's hold on to hope together.