[E243] The Risk of Winning

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:04] Speaker B: To the Empowered to Connect podcast, where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families and our communities. Hello, everyone. I'm here with Mo and Tana Ottinger, and at the time of this recording, we have just completed the World Cup. [00:00:27] Speaker C: And. [00:00:27] Speaker B: And you guys know, or you may not know, we're big soccer fans in the Ferris family, so we've been following along big competitors over here. This is the thing I thought you might know about me particularly is that I'm a big competitor and Mo and Tana know this as well. So I want to kind of bring the spirit of competition and, you know, advancing our own goals and what we want in life and what we want for our kids into this conversation today as we talk about the risk of winning. And what do I mean by that? I mean, oftentimes we find ourselves kind of at odds or against our kids in a certain kind of way. Maybe there's a season where that kid and us just don't feel aligned, or maybe there's a particular conversation happening where this kid just seems like. It seems like you guys are, you know, against each other in some sort of way. I'm wanting to know Mo and Tana as we jump right into this discussion, what does that bring to mind for you guys? [00:01:40] Speaker C: My first question is, what's the World Cup? Just, I mean, I'm just joking. [00:01:46] Speaker B: It is a form of sports ball, Tana. So. [00:01:48] Speaker C: Yes, that's right. That's right. Whereas Mo and one of our kiddos just got back from some WNBA game. So I do know what that is. So if we could. And we're a volleyball family, so if I can compare it to something not soccer, I might be able to get aligned in this particular moment. [00:02:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm down with that. Let's do it. Any kind of sports ball, any kind of competition, nerds, you know. Do you like card games? [00:02:15] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah, that's true. I do know what it is. When we were thinking about having this conversation, it feels, oh, goodness, I don't want to have this conversation because I really like to win. And so even having to stop and think about this and center ourselves and get present with this concept is a big one because I think it's pretty nuanced and it can sneak in into your point, Jesse. And big and small ways, like we can accidentally fall into sort of a defensive posture or an othering posture or an against posture. It's sort of this confrontational face to face, front to front. I'm kind of visual So I think about this as like a front to front posture instead of a side to side posture, like we're on the same, same team. So if I use my little volleyball analogy, we're on the same side of the net, right? We're trying to work against something else. It's not against each other. So that really is kind of the essence of this conversation, is if you put yourself in a front to front posture where you're competing against each other and fill in the blank, because there's any number of things that could go there, then there's. The stakes are pretty high, the relational stakes are pretty high. It's pretty risky posture. So that's kind of the essence of really this idea. [00:03:56] Speaker A: And I mean, I'll just add on that. I don't think we start off in parenting thinking we're going to be on opposite sides of the net from one another. And we get into this parenting journey. And I know that's my case. Let me just say for me, I never intended to be on the other side of the net. And then I found myself on the other side of the net and it at times it turned into an us versus them instead of, hey, we're locking arms, and in this together, side by side. So just assessing where we are on the field, on the pitch, on the court. [00:04:35] Speaker B: That's right. You know, I love to talk existentially, symbolically, metaphorically. Metaphorically. But I mean, truly, you guys have lived a lot of parenting years together. And I'm wondering, even just as you think over the arc of parenthood in different ages and stages, what examples can you think of? You know, it doesn't have to be something terribly personal, but there are universal parenting experiences that we kind of all can relate to. So what are some of those that you can think of at the different ages and stages? [00:05:09] Speaker C: I wonder if we could think about winning as some synonyms for that. Like, what does winning look like? Like what? Winning for me is just getting what I wanted, doing it my way. When I said how, I said when. You know, right now, right? Like doing. Just sort of following my lead, doing it when I want you to do it the way I want you to do it, how I want you to do it. Like, to me, that is parent winning. I had a plan or I had a thing, I wanted to happen a certain way, and it's going that way. Like, that's maybe how, when we think about this relational thing, that's maybe some way you can. What does winning mean? Right. Go ahead, Jesse, do you have a Follow up question. [00:05:53] Speaker B: Yes, I just want to, on behalf of the listener, push back and say, but what's wrong with that? Didn't we earn the right to win, so to speak? As parents, we've waited our whole lives to be in this position. [00:06:06] Speaker C: Right. I think when there's a winner, there is by default a loser. And in no way, shape or form do I want my children to walk around with this sort of banner of lose. I lose when I'm in relationship with my mom, then I'm a loser, and mom's the winner. And. And mom is right, and mom's way always goes. And I don't have autonomy or personality or choice or voice or inability to negotiate when she says it. I've got to comply at all costs. It's a compliance posture rather than a relational posture. I do not want to send the message to my children that in order for me to be the mom I thought I would be or I believe I have the right to be, that by default, they are a loser. So, yes, we're in control. Yes, we have power. Yes, we have plans. Yes, we have goals. Yes, we have ideology. Yes, we have responsibility. Yes, we have all this sort of parenting stuff we've got to do. We've got to nurture and mentor and parent and, you know, lead. You know, parenting is a leadership exercise at the end of the day. And what leader do you want that has to win everything? Nope. Nobody wants to have a boss that has to win everything. It's. It's very complex. So I'm not saying you don't have, you know, the freedom to carry yourself that way. I wouldn't want to be that child, that not a relationship I want to be in. I mean, we can talk about again. So it's not super existential. What are some examples of that? Like when, you know, when does that. Let's flush that out. Let's put a few hooks in that thing. Let's think about toddlerhood. You know, it's the toddler that isn't ready for bed. You know, it is bedtime and you are ready for bed. It is the toddler that just cannot go to bed and winning for you. And I'm just giving this big example. Winning is compliant child. One hug, one book, one sip of water, fast asleep, off they go. You get to go watch your show, kick your feet up, sit outside, whatever you might need to want to do in the evenings to calm yourself down. So winning to you is whatever your night's supposed to look like, and then you've Got, kiddo. That's very much a part of the situation. And maybe they. They aren't complying to that bedtime routine. So you either force them into it and, you know, the stuff hits the fan and everything goes awry, and the night is a wash and a loss because they're melting down. You're agitated, you're frustrated, or you sort of relax and redefine what success look like. What does it look like to support a child going to sleep? And what my even quote, unquote, I define as a positive nighttime experience. Instead of, you know, them complying, what if I frame it as I really. They do need to go to sleep. They need to go to sleep at a. At the right time. They need to go to sleep at a good time. We need rituals, routines, rhythms, structure, all the stuff we always talk about. But what does it look like for me to go from a. You're going to do it this way. That's me winning and you losing to. Hey. The thing that's on the other side of the net is bedtime sleep. And we're together figuring out how to help that happen. So if that's the posture, there's play and negotiation and some joy and some flexibility and some calmer pacing, a different tone, a lack of agitation. There's insight, there's understanding. Bedtime is still the goal, but I'm willing to change my approach. The child having a hard time is not my opponent. The child that needs support is my teammate. And the goal. There's a soccer analogy, is to get to bed. Okay. The goal is to get to bed. Yeah. What comes up? What do y' all think about that? Like, what are some other examples or just some things to come to mind for y'? All. [00:10:47] Speaker A: Well, in that example, you were being the adult. Like, you were. This is what I want. Right? Like, I want to be sitting out on the back porch or I want to be having my feet kicked up. But you adjusted and. And rightly related with that little one to. To get onto bed. And I think there's a. There's a way that we rightly relate to our kiddos. And I'm just thinking about in a situation recently with a young adult, so not a toddler, your example, but with mine, with an. With an older child. You know, there's. Michael Monroe said it years ago, but, you know, it's better to be rightly related than to be right. And so I will just say for me, in this specific conversation, I was not the adult in the conversation and that I knew exactly in the conversation where I could have just said, I hear you. I gotcha. Let's lock arms. We're gonna solve this together. But something that was said was not right. [00:12:04] Speaker C: Right. [00:12:05] Speaker A: And so I needed. I wanted to just add one more little line in there about but this. And, you know, we're. We're a few days past that. That interaction, and we're still working through it because I wanted to be right in that situation. And consequently, I'm not rightly related to him at this part, to my child at this point. So I'm so. I just think. I just. I think about being parenting is this needing to be humble, needing to be thoughtful in the moment, which I'm not always great at. Like, I am. I am not always on my feet the best in that regard. And so I just think about us as adults again. What's the end zone? What's the goal? The being connected to our kids, building them, you know, resilience, all those things. And I just think at times as us as parents, we gotta. We gotta think about being rightly related. [00:13:22] Speaker C: I want to go back to my little example, because I want to make sure I'm not maybe accidentally communicating something, and then maybe I'll highlight something Mo said as well, and that is, it's okay to want to go put your feet up outside, and probably you could still go do that. Right. Those things are not in opposition, but I think sometimes we can just lose focus on how to get there. We think there's one path to getting our needs met, and I think there's a lot more paths to getting our needs met. And it actually comes from our perspective, our lived experience that comes more naturally and quickly if we're working collaboratively. Like, there's actually more peace, more space, more time to reset, less angst. Like, the volume in the house is lower. There's more compliance. There's more connection. Just the rhythm of those relationships are. There's an ease to them. When we are sort of willing to let some things go. We don't have to win every interaction. Now, that is not to say that we don't need structure and boundary and limits. We do need all of those things. We need all of those things. But often what's happening in those interactions is. Bo, do you mind if I use maybe your example? [00:14:40] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:14:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:41] Speaker A: Don't mind. Go ahead. [00:14:42] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. We're human people trying to parent, and that means we have our own nervous system and our own stress responses and our own reactions, and those things are gonna get automatically activated. And there should Be no shame in that. We're not even. We are not advocating for getting it right all the time. We're actually advocating for. Let's try to. Let's stop trying to be right all the time. Let's embrace some fumbling the ball, trying some new things, collaborating, repairing when we mess up. Right? So we're advocating for this sort of humble collaborative stance. There are some times with your kids, especially if you've got a kiddo that really struggles to comply, you do have to hold a boundary. Like it is okay to hold a boundary and keep a structure. We're not advocating for letting all that go. I'm asking a question about what is your motivation? What is your mindset? And if your mindset and motivation are to be right, not not compliance. I mean, if your motivation is to be right and have them comply, not collaboration, then you could accidentally be holding structures and boundaries that are actually doing the opposite for. For you in relationship. Right? So when Mo and I really started like thinking about this and evaluating interactions and talking about them after the fact and being, you know, being humble to hear from each other, to have follow up conversations, what do you think was going on there? What was happening in me, thinking back on it is when we really began to say, like so much of this is about us. You know, I am frustrated that this kid won't just do what I say, good gracious. This is exhausting. You know, just that posture of being exhausted and overwhelmed. For good reason, by the way, that is a valid feeling. That is a valid state of being. If you double down for compliance, you're actually not going to make progress. In fact, you could be driving behavior, making things worse, causing more flare ups. Right? We've seen that, Mo, haven't we? Like, if this is about just doing what mom and dad said, because by golly, we're mom and dad and we have the right for you to do that. Man, those were some of our hardest parenting years. [00:17:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. [00:17:22] Speaker C: So much stress, so much angst versus just like taking a deep breath and reevaluating. What's the goal? Is the goal bedtime or is the goal relationship? Those two things are not in opposition, by the way. This is not a one or the other. But. But sometimes we put ourselves in a position where they appear to be one or the other or we believe they are one or the other and they are not. Jesse, I know you've got 101 thoughts. [00:17:55] Speaker B: 101 thoughts. I'm specifically thinking, you know, you talked about a hypothetical toddler in a hypothetical bedtime. Situation. But, you know, we share a story of a time that. That actually did go down at our house. It was New Year's Eve. We had these traditions of, you know, it was several years into our parenting and with our oldest child, we watched a movie with her, and then we put her to bed, and then we watched our own movie. And I was really excited about both movies we'd chosen. And she hated the movie that we chose for her. It scared her. It was the Muppets Most Wanted, and something about the bad Kermit just really freaked her out. And I thought it was a little bit ridiculous. Like, I wanted to push through. I wanted to watch the movie, and she didn't want to. So we turned it off. Therein was my first kind of opportunity for me to check my expectations because I was so committed to, like, this is the tradition. This is what we do. I want to see this. You're gonna love it. You know? And that didn't work out. And then it was like, okay, well, then we're just gonna go to bed. But she was scared. She wouldn't do the bedtime routine. And for some reason that night, I decided it was do or die. Like, you are going to go to bed. The end. And it was like the last stand. And this child. I've met my match in her. She's met her match in me. We stayed up all night long. I kid you not. I think we both fell asleep at 6am and Nick at some point was like, why are we doing this? This is your battle. I give up. I don't know why we're doing this. And he went to going to bed. [00:19:46] Speaker A: I'm watching the movie. [00:19:48] Speaker B: She and I were like, hey, you're gonna go to bed, and I'm gonna stay here until you go to bed. It was just looking back on it now that it's, you know, more than a decade away from us. Like a kind of a hilarious story, and we crack jokes about it in our family, but it was a terrible parenting fail, all because I just thought, I'm gonna double down on this and get it done quick. That way I can get back to the tradition that I want to enjoy. My expectation was, I want to enjoy this holiday the way that we always do now. Even in the context of that particular year, we had a lot going on. We were in the middle almost towards the end of our second adoption. It was not normal times for us. Everyone was under a lot of stress. I was just not willing to. I was not willing to take a look at that situation. And so when you talk about, like, the ways that we escalate things because we're so committed to doing it our way or trying to keep the train on the track. I can think of so many times in my early parenting that I escalated the situation because I was so committed to doing it one way and I was unwilling to be creative. I was unwilling to attune to what my kid needed in the moment. And I think even sometimes I was unwilling to let my child struggle that being committed to doing it one way meant like, I was going to shut it down. I wasn't going to allow my child to feel disappointed or I wasn't going to allow my child to like, struggle with how to do the thing that we were. That she needed practice doing, it was like, no, we're just going to do it this way because it's the fastest way. And I would end up escalating things and putting, putting that stance of myself against my child instead of, you know, let's take this together, man. I would have done that. I would have done that evening 50 billion different ways. In fact, the next night we did a big redo, including some melatonin. [00:22:00] Speaker C: But for who? All of us. [00:22:04] Speaker B: All of us. But I just for me, when I look back on it, it's a seminal moment in my parenthood because I tried something that I thought was the right way to do it and I failed. And I had to make a choice, like, how's that working for me? Am I going to keep doing it that way or am I going to have to maybe take a different perspective, which is kind of what you're talking about? Mo that instead of it being the right way, which I've been so committ to for so much of my life, that it was going to have to be a way of relating rightly, which is totally different. It requires so much more improv, so much more attunement, so much more flexibility in the moment and humility. Like you talk about, that's tough to do, but I think there are some long term benefits of it. What would you say if we're willing to set aside the right way of doing something in order to listen to our child or pivot in the moment and dance with them a little bit? What, what ends up being kind of the. The long term benefit of that? [00:23:21] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I'll say, using your example, y' all would get to watch a movie and have a sweet night and, [00:23:27] Speaker C: and it would have been great. [00:23:28] Speaker B: It would have been great. [00:23:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I just, I mean, I look Back at the illustration that I, the situation I shared and I'm, I'm like, what really was gained by that? Like, nothing that, like the, the, the. The repair will be good. That, that still needs to happen. I will say I've been out of town, so that's why the repair has not happened. But the repair will need to happen. There's. We know what that does for children. We know what that does for relationships. We know what that builds on both sides of that equation. I think again, I just, I think so much is. Gosh, I look back so much this summer, I think I could go kid by kid and just say, ah, I just needed to drop the expectation, drop what I wanted, drop the timeline I had. Drop, drop, drop and just pause and, and help my child be successful in the moment and, and work through what we needed to work through instead of escalating and a kid going to the room and I'm needing to follow and repair. Like, I've done a lot of repairing this summer, I will just say. And so, I mean, I think just relationally, again, just our kids and ourselves realizing that relationships, it's about being human and they're going to have relationships the whole their whole life and being able to learn how to repair, learn how to communicate, learn how to give voice, learn how to flex, learn how to be nuanced, drop expectations. Man, I was in the grocery store the other day watching this young couple and their young kids, and I thought, oh, goodness, just stop, stop. Just, this does not have to be happening right now in the middle of Kroger, and it can go a different direction. And so I just think, you know, it's the goodness of relationships and they're messy and we're not parenting robots and we're not robots. [00:25:58] Speaker B: And [00:26:00] Speaker A: yeah, I just think it's the goodness of them, of relationships working through it. [00:26:07] Speaker C: When I hear Mo share that and even just sort of that question of like, what's the benefits? I immediately think, like, there are short term benefits and then there are like really important long term benefits. And again, I think the short term benefit is exactly what Mo's highlighting in your story, Jesse. Like, you could have done it a million and one other ways. Maybe she would have been asleep in like an hour, hour and a half, and then y' all still could have watched that movie and gone on with your night, you know, there. And that little example is so important. Thank you for sharing. There are so many things that we escalate. We just come at them too hard, too hot, too whatever, because something in us is triggered, amped up, dysregulated, frustrated, feeling out of sorts, feeling out of control, tired, like all these very human things we're gonna feel as parents. But if we are bringing those to an interaction and it's doubling down, this need to do it my way or the highway, I've gotta be right, I'm the power, I'm the control, sort of that very, you know, strong authoritarian parenting style, then we just there, there's a lot of need going unmet. So that's where I say like there is short, there's actually short term benefit. In fact, this is where you can fall into like, you know, dismissive or like unavoidant parenting because you could avoid conflict because sometimes it actually makes it easier. So I want to be real careful realizing quote unquote, if the child wins in the moment, it might be easier. But that's not what we're advocating for. We're not advocating for any winners because any winners are losers. We're advocating for us to be successful collaboratively. We're advocating for collaboration where we're both making progress, not one winner and one loser. Because you don't want the kid to sort of quote unquote, win either. You need to take a collaborative stance where we're actually meeting needs. If you can focus on meeting needs, you can probably still get the thing done. Like the bath, the bedtime, all those things can still be done if we're supporting the child along the way. So the long term benefit is the kid has this relationship with an authority figure where they get to rest, they get to say, ha. Grown ups hear me. Grown ups see me. Grown ups can pause and pay attention and celebrate and understand. I'm worthy of being understood. I'm worthy of having a voice and choice. I am worthy of negotiating my needs. Like this is hard, but parenting is done in microscopic moments. The narrative of your relationship with your child happens in little moments just like this. It happens at bedtime and bath time and getting in the car and getting homework done. That is your relationship. So if you aren't bringing this like collaborative, calm, regulated perspective to those interactions, then that is how you're parenting. And I don't mean to be like make that big and scary, but that's just the reality of it. You've got to give your kid voice and choice and autonomy and allow them to have needs in real time interactions all the live long day. [00:29:50] Speaker B: I'm thinking of kind of a tension point that I was holding as a young parent, which is that that kind of saying that we hear people throw around that we don't negotiate with terrorists. And when we think about collaborating with our children, our children are the terrorists, and so we're not going to negotiate with them. And I think of so many times in my early parenthood where, let's just be honest, like, we don't know what we're doing. We don't know what to do in every given moment. You know, I'm thinking about. [00:30:32] Speaker C: Still don't. [00:30:32] Speaker B: I'm thinking about, like, being at Target and the kid starts to lose it. And, you know, I. Or being that couple in Kroger, Mo. And like, I remember that feeling of, like, oh, gosh, do I, like, sit down in the aisle and address this? Do I like, like, do I hold my stance and, like, battle it out with her? Do I, like, let her cry and keep shopping? Do I take her out of the store and go to the car and try and come back in? Do I go home? I remember that feeling of not knowing what to do. And to your point, Tana, I still feel that pretty regularly. I think what has changed in me is throwing that phrase that I don't negotiate with terrorists out the window because my child is not a terrorist. They are not terrorizing my life. They are not terrorizing this world. I'm raising a successful adult, and the way that I'm going to define that success has changed over the years. I'm raising a successful adult, but I'm also relating to somebody I care about deeply. And that's the thing that is within my power to control is that offer of relationship, that offer of connection with that child as I'm trying to raise her or him. Girl, house over here. So it's always her. But I'm thinking about Mo, how you talked about relationships just being messy. It is always going to be messy. Part of the freedom of this, you know, Tana, you were saying not to put too much pressure on all of us. We aren't going to get it right. And so that's the freedom in it, is that it's, you know, it's never more important to be right than it is to relate rightly. We're not gonna get it right, but we can always make things right as we're relating. Right. We can always go back and repair. We can all. You know, I got that night with my toddler terribly wrong. It's famously wrong in our family. And it has now become kind of a short code for mom's, like, getting headstrong. And we use it to remind each other like, hey, this isn't that night. And now that I have teenagers, they, you know, they feel empowered to use their voice. But I think long term, what that looks like is even this summer, watching my. My two daughters who are turning into young women move through the world with agency and auton to be able to advocate for themselves and what they want and what they need. That's hard to do when those kids were preschoolers and toddlers and elementary age. And it's still hard to do as they're teenagers because you better believe they are advocating for something they want almost every day. But I know that it is setting them up to move through the world believing that they are worthy of having a voice. And that is so valuable. That's so valuable. [00:33:52] Speaker C: The thing that's coming up for me is also honoring human development. And, you know, the teenagers now that have been given lots of opportunities to use their voice when they were younger, they didn't have, like, from a developmental perspective. They did not have the words or the frontal lobe development to articulate a clear, respectful, negotiated ask. They maybe only had their feet and their fist and their tears and their voice. Maybe that's all they had access to. But behavior is a clue. Behavior tells us something. Behavior is communication. And if you're struggling with big behaviors, that is your child's way of communicating something. So slow down. Again, I'm not saying that you can't land where you need to land. The bath still has to be taken. Maybe it's taken in a different way. Maybe it's taken playfully or after a snack or in a swimsuit with bubbles. I mean, I don't know. There are 101 million ways that we can collaborate to land where we need to land. But if you are getting a lot of resistance behaviorally, if you are getting a lot of behavioral resistance, your kiddo is trying to communicate something to you in the only way they can developmentally. And Jesse, you said something about, like, raising successful adults as a family. That's raising a lot of different kinds of children. I want to make sure we're real open handed with what we define as success. [00:35:38] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:35:39] Speaker C: Because. Yeah, and I know you know that, but just to put a little fine point on it, right. We want to. We want to support them to the best of their abilities. Right. And we're going to get them to be the most successful that they can be based on whatever's going on with them personally. And we're going to really redefine what success looks like. But we can still give them voice and Choice and autonomy and the ability to communicate and be heard. Right. High value over here is we'll hear you. [00:36:08] Speaker B: You know, we talk a lot about helicopter parenting, and I think this becomes part of that, too, because we are not willing to let our kids. We're not willing to let our kids try things their way. They have to do it our way. And so, you know, what does that look like when you start to get into those older elementary years and they've made a mistake or they have a question about a school assignment? Are we going to just dig up the answer for them or are we going to help them figure it out? What does it look like in middle school if they're having an argument with a friend? Are we going to call up that kid's parent and work it out with the adults, or are we going to help that kid figure out how to navigate their own circumstances? I think moving into and through childhood and adolescence, some of this is we just. We can't have it our way. Our kid is their own person. Right? They're gonna. [00:37:09] Speaker C: Unfortunately, [00:37:12] Speaker B: they're gonna. [00:37:12] Speaker C: It would be so much. [00:37:14] Speaker B: They're gonna like the things they like. They're gonna. They're going to want the things they want. You know, like, I wish that I could. You know, I wish that I could come up with my own plan for, For a kid, but they got to forge their own path. [00:37:33] Speaker A: I think about just. This is so minor, but just as you were sharing, I was thinking about all the ways my kids, through their, their growing up, developmental ages have when they start dressing themselves. And I was, I was just thinking about, oh, my gosh, you remember when we would go public. [00:37:50] Speaker C: Oh, I have so many. [00:37:53] Speaker A: So many were just like, okay, we're doing this thing. We're doing it. [00:38:00] Speaker B: I think I have delighted my parents because I grew up in a pretty permissive house. And so I have hilarious photos of all kinds of outfits that I put together. You know, we're talking about like those, those like, sweater tights with jelly shoes and all kinds of hairstyle. You know, just whatever I wanted to wear, I was allowed to wear. So I used to declare when I was a teenager that when I grew up, I was going to match all of my children's clothing and they were always going to look picture perfect. I don't. That has not happened. [00:38:38] Speaker C: You're very freestyle over there. Freestyle. Freestyle Ferris House. Oh, yeah. I mean, what. What's the essence of this? Like, what sort of. What's the heart of this matter? What are we, what are we aiming for? What's what's, what is to use our sports analogy, what's the end goal? You know, and what, and how can we reorient ourselves with a fresh mindset? Like this really is so much about our mindset and how to reorient that mindset. [00:39:12] Speaker B: Yes. And, and let's speak directly to parents too, who, because I think this has been each of us in different seasons who are really feeling like they are battling it out every day. Parents who from the time they wake up feel like it is really hard to get on the same team with their kid because we've been in those seasons and so we're not dismissing that at all. [00:39:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I had a phone call with someone recently who has a kiddo that has been recently diagnosed with something called pda, which is sort of a demand avoidance segment of autism. And we were just talking about the difficulties in having to level set expectations for what can be expected of this kiddo. And really and truly that is the heart of it is I think a lot of people who are real and look, we have been there. So I am not othering right now. You're invited into the Audinger house. Pull up a chair. The seasons when we have been the deepest in, when it just felt like we could not move the needle, move things forward, it was escalated and difficult and we were butting heads. Whatever version you want to say, arguing whatever feels like the word you would use to characterize that moment. It really, really came down to the fact that we did not have our expectations set to meet the needs of that particular child in that moment. Our expectations were far off. And if we could do some business with what are the expectations that we should have for this child and their unique wiring and gifting and set of needs and history and experience, experience and abilities, how can we level set those so that we are not missing the kid in the moment. We're not parenting to some other expectation. We're actually meeting needs in the moment and then letting that sort of lead our expectation like let let need inform expectation, not the other way around. And that's really when we were able to, I think, mo, I wonder if you would like regain some footing and some joy and sort of get back to a place of healing in the life of our family. So if you're having a lot of parenting strife, you are not alone. You are not fundamentally doing something horribly wrong. You are a good parent who, if you're listening to this podcast episode, has the best of intentions. We see you. It's okay. Take a little pressure off, speak to yourself, the way a friend would speak to you and really start investigating. Can what I want. Is what I want to happen, even. Are we even capable of that at this point? And then what might need to be altered. Different school environment, different school structure, different home schedule, different. You know, there's probably a lot of things that may need to change. If you're in a heightened season of a lot of sort of pushback and stress, it's probably time to get some people involved. There could be some time for some doctors, maybe some medication. Like, there's. There's probably a lot that might need to happen to be supportive for your family. But really and truly to your point, Jesse, all you can control is what. What you're doing and what your expectations are. So we talk about that expectation gap. [00:43:04] Speaker B: I think for people who are parenting children who've experienced loss, adversity, stress, trauma, Sometimes the way that children can help themselves feel safe is by. By trying to control their circumstances moving forward, by trying to control the people around them, by trying to control the way they feel, by trying to control what is happening in their day and making sure that their needs are going to get met themselves. For some of our kiddos, that has been the way that they survived or the way that their beliefs have been shaped, that they believe they need to do those things in order to survive and to break those. Those habits and patterns and to change that. Those kinds of beliefs. That takes so long. It takes a long, long time. And I think early in my parenting, I would have believed I've got to change this. But I think I. I wonder if instead of trying to change something, if you came up alongside it and tried to go with it in the sense of, what are ways in your day that you could give your child more control? What are ways that you can raise predictability for them? What are ways that you can help them to feel safe and to know that their needs will be met? I think in focusing on that, instead of trying to change something about what my child believed, that that's been a pretty powerful change in my family personally. All right, as we are thinking about, I've got one more sports analogy for us, guys. Actually, I love that this is coming from me, but I love college football. And so in my opinion, the most boring games are when there's, like a shutout, you know, and your team wins by 56 to 0 or something. That's boring. [00:45:25] Speaker A: Even for Auburn. [00:45:26] Speaker B: That's even for Auburn. Worry goal. [00:45:29] Speaker C: Okay. [00:45:30] Speaker B: My favorite games are when we're in the Iron bowl and it's in the third overtime, you know, like those are the best games. And I, I want you to think about when you are finding yourself at odds or against or in a stance that is not with your kid in any given moment. What would it look like to just go into overtime? Nobody has to win that one, right? Like you're tied, just take a beat and go into overtime. Meaning that you can take some time to figure out what each of you need to move forward. And I think the ability to slow down, you know, Tana, you've said slow down. That's so difficult for me personally. I'm such a present minded person and it's really hard to think outside of the moment until the moment's over for me. So a lot of that for me in the beginning years was going back to it and reflecting upon it after it had happened and then going back to that kiddo and being like, hey, that didn't feel great, you know, could we try that again or I didn't mean to show up that way. Can we try this a different way? Or I've been thinking about it. I know I said this, but I actually wonder if it could be like this. Meaning that even in the moment, if what I said went, I could still go back and edit that. I could change it. I could find a way forward with that kid, whatever that looks like for you. If you're able to slow yourself down in the moment to head into overtime, if you're able to, you know, take your time out and come back to things and look at it in a different way with a different strategy, I would encourage you to be thinking about how it really comes down to what is the goal. I've heard that said over and over in this conversation. And the goal is not what you think it is. That goal is how do I relate rightly with this kid. What would you guys add as we finish out? [00:47:41] Speaker A: Well, I will say I wrote slow down and circled it when Tana said it earlier on. Right. Like it is, it is so true. And I'll just say, like Thomas said, I just went away for a weekend basketball games and I'm amazed we would get there early to try to get into the arena, to get down, see the players, get autographs, all that sort of stuff. So you're with all these people and their kids and it's supposed to be fun. And it's interesting looking at a parent that's like on their phone and their kids are just sitting there like, I'm right here. Mom, Mom, Dad, Mom, Dad. You know, and I just think there's so much distractions that we have as parents. And I hate to. I even hate to say phone or always, because I think technology is. You know, everybody's talking about the evil of technology, but I sat there and just saw dozens and dozens of parents no focus on their kids. And I just think for all of us, whatever it is, however, we can slow down in the moment. And I' just say, for me personally or for just the things that are in my head are in my mind, whether it be the stress of work, the stress of life coming in to be able to be fully present. Fully present. I've said this. Y' all know this. I have the. The sign that was up in my office that said, you must be present to win. Right? Like, to be fully present with your child, you need to slow down. And I think so often as parents, man, especially in this day and age, there's just so much. And, you know, I'll just say, for Tana and I, with. With life and kids and all that's happening, it seems to be we're taking, we're picking, taking. And there's always something going on with the kiddo and the ability to be fully present with your child and see them understand. Take the. It gives you the opportunity to understand what's happening. Ask the question being, be thoughtful, be inquisitive, be attuned to what's happening. And I mean, Jesse, I'm. What. I'm terrible at with what you said. Like, you said, I can go away from a situation and I can think about it, and I can ask questions and I can ponder. I mean, I'll just. I mean, I will confess this. Like, Tan and I were talking the other day, and she goes, oh, what did you think about that? And I'm like, I haven't thought about it. She was like, you mean you didn't ask yourself, like, why did I react that way? Or why did I do? I'm like, no, I haven't gotten there yet. But I think that's something I'm learning, is, like, to slow down and ask the question, why did I do that? Why did I feel like I needed to add that one more line in there? Or why did I need to be right? Or on and on and on. So I, like, slow down for sure. [00:50:48] Speaker C: Maybe my little closing thoughts are. My goodness, what a lot of, like, brain exercises are we talking about doing in our own hearts and minds, right? So I. Maybe. Maybe twofold, for me, I think we've hit on two things. Maybe there's three. We do talk here at etc a good bit, especially in our parenting course. We actually talk a lot, a lot about this before, during and after cycle. So in cultivate connection, which we do have on demand. I'll put a little plug on there. We talk about layering a lot of parenting strategies and we talk about before, during, and after. And we've. We've hit on that a little bit right here. So in. In the moment, that's the. During an interaction, a situation where you might. We've all. We've shared examples sort of, oh, it's getting hot in here. Right? This isn't going the way I hoped. Right. We as human beings, with practice, this may a be skill you have to work on, but you have the ability to have a second conversation going in your brain. You can think about what you are thinking about this like we're the only. Like we're the only species on Earth that I believe God made to be able to do this thing. I can be having an interaction and I can have a different conversation going on in my brain. So that is what I mean by slow down in the moment when it's getting hot. The slowing down is the internal dialogue that could be as simple as I wonder what or why. I wonder why they are reacting. I wonder why they are resistant. I wonder what they might need. I wonder what is happening here. What am I not noticing, seeing? It is just a little second internal conversation happening in the moment. And the simple question is why? I wonder why. Okay, that is a skill you could start to practice this week, right now, later on, when something's going take a beat, take a breath, and let that other part of your brain practice curiosity. Then we're outside of the moment and we're having these good reflective conversations. Talk it out loud, journal it. Think about it. Ask your parenting partner or a close friend, can I replay a conversation, I mean, a situation with you, so I can say it out loud and practice curiosity about it. That's that reflect back right to your point, Mo, that that was what Mo and I were doing. We were replaying a situation to see if we could figure out what else was going on inside of him. And then what. What might have been the unmet needs of the kiddo in that moment and his unmet needs, by the way, because we're probably. We're having some unmet needs as parents too, in that moment, which could be where sort of that reaction's coming from. And that's okay in humans. So it's that before and then that before part is just resetting those expectations so you can get yourself prepared for the next time. Didn't go great. Oh, think about it. Reset level set, redo what Jesse talked about. The next thing you do is the redo, do that bedtime over, make those repairs, ask for, you know, seek repair, ask for an apology, you know, seek apology, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Like go make it right quote unquote after it hasn't gone right. And that could be in a lot of different ways. Before, during and after would be the way I would want to close this because you are going to want to be right. That's just being human and being a parent. It's okay, no shame. But it isn't probably going to get you where you want to go. [00:54:37] Speaker B: So the risk of winning is actually that your child might be losing in relationship with you. And thank you Mo and Tana for this conversation. It's given me things to think about even this week as I go forward. Parenting. I know. Probably for you too. How can we move towards our kids? How can we see ourselves as on the same team and take these really thoughtful questions and apply them to our specific circumstances? Thank you guys for this great conversation. [00:55:13] Speaker C: Thank you Jesse. [00:55:13] Speaker A: Thanks Jess. [00:55:19] Speaker B: We hope you enjoyed the episode. If you're interested in learning more, head to empoweredtoconnect.org for our library of resources. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at etc, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empowered to Connect podcast. In the meantime, let's hold on to hope together.