[E222] Introduction to Cultivate Connection

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:04] Speaker B: To the Empowered to Connect podcast where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families and our communities. Hey everyone. Today we want to celebrate the launch of Cultivate Connection Online. This is a self led course that is based on our original flagship parenting course. And Becca, why don't you tell us a little bit about what Cultivate Connection is? [00:00:36] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Cultivate Connection is our peer to peer parenting course and it is really our deepest dive at Empowered to Connect into principles of attachment, trauma, informed care, best practices for parenting, keeping the whole child in mind. We really unpack all of our foundational mindsets and all nine of our Empowered to Connect Connecting practices. And we typically do it in a course where you're learning alongside other people. So grab a parenting partner or a friend, sign up for Cultivate Connection Online and grab coffee once a week and talk about what you're learning, what you're processing through. Cultivate Connection is a course where you're going to get out of it as much as you put into it. So if you spend the time and practice the strategies, we believe you're going to see some transformation in your home. [00:01:25] Speaker A: Historically, Cultivate Connection has been taught in live courses with facilitators that we have across the globe. And it has been our Empowered to Connect's historical delight to give a course like that to people in community, to support those in community. It's how Mo and I started this whole thing that was so incredibly transformative to us was through the original version of Cultivate Connection. We went in eager and hungry and needed some direction and support and a different way of thinking and doing and being parents. And we found such life and joy through the parenting class. So historically, and we still do have a facilitator training model where we train people to facilitate the course. But part of our organizational next steps is, as Becca just shared, launching it online through our new online learning platform called Empowered to Connect Institute. And so we are so excited to let you all know that no matter where you are now, you can asynchronously go on to the Empowered to Connect Institute online learning platform and get Cultivate Connection right to your home. And so it is just so exciting to be here right now organizationally, and I feel really proud of where we are being able to offer it this way. So now we have both, and we do facilitators teaching it live and in their communities around the world and and also an online learning platform straight to the listeners. [00:02:56] Speaker B: And obviously listeners, there's advantages to either platform so if you want to get in a class with some people and be speaking to them face to face, then certainly look up on our website for facilitators near you and find a way to join a course. And if you buy time constraints or just where you're located, need to be able to have that asynchronous course that's self led, then the online course might be for you. We thought today in this podcast episode, we would just kind of highlight kind of where we all start in the course and give you a little bit of a taste of what the course is like and maybe talk about one of our foundational principles that everything's built off of. So without further ado, let's talk about some parenting styles. Guys, when we begin this course, we start talking about being mindful and, and being curious. And one of those first things that we ask parents to think about is their own parenting style in their family. And that might be the same. It might be they might differ from each other. If you're parenting with a partner, it might be the same as how you grew up. It might be different than how you grew up. So let's get started talking about these. There are four different kinds. Becca, why don't you describe the quadrant for us and we'll try and give a link to that in our show notes as well. [00:04:24] Speaker C: Absolutely. This is a model that is widespread in the research. So it is not our, our own model. But you've probably heard of authoritative, authoritarian, uninvolved and permissive parenting styles. I know on my social media feed it's kind of trending right now to talk about parenting styles and where are you? But essentially, if you think about a quadrant of four quadrant grid, there's arrows, okay? And the arrows represent structure and nurture. So if we think about each of those styles, we think about how they relate to structure and nurture. So at the very top left of your quadrant, if you're looking at it or listening, you can kind of picture it. This would be if you have a really low nurture, but really high structure. Okay. And when that happens, you have an authoritarian parenting style. My way or the highway, all rules, not a lot of support. Then if we make our way down right underneath of that, what if we have really low nurture, just like authoritarian. But what if we also have really low structure? That's going to be our uninvolved parents. These are parents who are absent for a number of different reasons. Right. Maybe it's situational, maybe they're gone for work, or maybe they're overwhelmed with life. Or for whatever reason, we may find ourselves in a season where we are uninvolved and we're not providing structure or nurture for our kiddos, then if we continue to make our way around this kind of in a counterclockwise motion, if we've got really high nurture, which is a great thing to have, but we still have low structure, we're going to be in permissive parenting land. And I know, I mean, as we talk about these, we find ourselves in each quadrant day by day. Everyone does. But if we lean permissive, we are really all about connecting with our kids, being emotionally present with them. But there's a lack of structure, boundaries, rules, limits. This is kind of an anything goes approach, parenting. And then if we make our way to the top, right? So where we want to land as parents is this high nurture, high structure approach. Because research shows time and time and time again, study after study, decade after decade, kids really need high levels of both. Sometimes it feels like you talk about this I think really well, Jesse. All the time it feels like a teeter totter. Like we want to adjust our structure and nurture, but instead, as we record this podcast, we've got our sound mixing board right in front of us. We want to turn the volume all the way up on structure and all the way up on nurture at the same time. And when we can do that, we're kind of creating the environment where our kids can really trust us and they can really grow as well. [00:07:12] Speaker B: Thanks, Becca. That gives you guys an idea of the quadrant. I kind of want to pull these styles apart a little bit because I think it's easy to caricature them, you know, like, these three are bad and this one's good. [00:07:24] Speaker C: Right? [00:07:25] Speaker B: You know, and everything's one thing or the other. But if you've listened to this podcast for a while, you know, one of my favorite things to say is nobody's ever just one thing. And so I think we can all identify, like you said, Becca, with different parts of these styles. And I. I think let's humanize them a little bit and talk a little bit more about our experiences with them. I think let's start with authoritarian where you started, Becca. I think probably in certain circles, authoritarian parenting is maybe what we're. What comes to mind easiest for some people. I guess it just depends on how you grow up. So what are your experiences with authoritarian parenting? What do you associate it with? What are maybe some of the reasons why people might parent this way? [00:08:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I'll, I'll kick start us because that's my origin story. That's my parenting starting place. I have a vivid memory of Mo and I. I mean, it would have been 30 years ago, probably close to that, when we were in premarital counseling way back in the day. And they had us do some personality profiles and they were sort of illuminating some potential areas of strength and maybe some pitfalls. And the couple that was doing it with us, interestingly enough, and I think if you know us now, this might come as a surprise, but they were like, you guys are maybe gonna struggle with showing empathy. Both of you could have a struggle with being empathetic. And I think they were hitting on that naturally. We were both leaning more. We would think about this in an attachment style, more dismissive. And I think that the culture that we were in, in at that time and the culture of the environment which we met and then when we started our family, it was very much high, high, high structure, I would say now, high control and very much like obedience, always first, sort of no questions asked. So our peace. Yes, it did. I had, I actually did say that to my children, like that exact phrase. So we were in a very, very, very peer oriented, high structure environment. And it actually played well into who we both were at the core. So I'm certain it felt it wasn't necessarily going against maybe our even actual natural leanings. It was probably sort of. We were in a bit of an echo chamber, I might say. Interestingly enough, that's not my childhood experience. I had a very different experience, one I would say was authoritative. I had very nurturing, loving, structured parents. And I. So I was sort of even in some ways pushing against my origin because of the peer environment I was in. I was thinking, I'm going to do it better and different. But better and different was higher structure, actually. And so it took me some undoing of some things. And I've shared that plenty of times, like my sort of awakening to, um, you can be a very nurturing, loving, empathetic mom and actually build in the things that I was trying to build in with, with a lot of structure. And it was counter. It wasn't working for us. It was actually. And the results were exactly the opposite of what we thought they would be, especially with the, the kiddos in our home at the time. So anyway, it's my origin story. It's my, my deepest pains and regrets because it was so. So we talk about it as a quadrant, as a spectrum. It was so high structure and in Fact, I was so unhappy. Like, I just didn't like the mom that I was. And I felt just so discouraged and overwhelmed and defeated. [00:11:21] Speaker B: Well, probably disappointed by your kids too, because they weren't meeting your expectations. [00:11:26] Speaker A: Surely. It was definitely not this sort of A plus B equation that was being sold to me. Interestingly enough, Jesse, I appreciate that. I think I was not as disappointed in them as I was just so disappointed in myself. How it felt to be you in that season, because I felt like I was counter. I was going against my intuition. And the part of me that wanted to be tender and kind and loving, I was telling that part that she didn't need to be doing that because that wasn't the right way to parent, quote, unquote. And so coming back to nurture was in essence, for me personally. And I. This is very different for everybody. But for me, because of my childhood, it felt like I was coming back to myself, actually, and coming back home to something that was softer and gentler, still structured. But anyway, so I started there and I think I'm still working through that a little bit and give forgiving myself. It's a journey. And having very honest conversations, especially now with our young adult kiddos. Right. Who were the ones that were experiencing Mo and I that way. We're still helping them make sense of their childhood as part of the Ottinger family, not their childhood before they came to us. They all have that. But what did it mean to be an Ottinger in those early years underneath that kind of parenting and naming it? [00:12:53] Speaker B: So, yeah, I think a focus on this type of authoritarian parenting is actually what you see on the outside. The actions, the behavior. It's very behavior focused. [00:13:04] Speaker A: So much so. [00:13:05] Speaker B: So that structure is in place in order to get the obedience or behavior that we're expecting to see. So even as I asked you that question of, like, maybe were you disappointed in your kids? You weren't. But I think sometimes we can feel that we are. Not that you felt this way, but we're disappointed in the outcome, in the output, in the behavior that we're seeing or aren't seeing and what we expected. And then we just. [00:13:34] Speaker A: There's disillusionment there, more and more structure. [00:13:37] Speaker B: In order to see a different outcome. [00:13:39] Speaker A: I mean, I remember the first counseling counselor we went to. Of course, again, it was 25 years ago. It was a long time ago. But I remember the first therapist we went to to sort of get some support for behavior. Their only recommendation for us was to up the discipline and to up the corporal Punishment and that that would surely be the solution. And so even our support that was available to us at that time was telling us to go higher structure, higher discipline. And that's literally when I'm like, I've. Peace out, people. This is not. [00:14:18] Speaker B: It was a lot of energy, probably. Oh, and you're rewarding behaviors, you're punishing behaviors, but the behaviors aren't changing. [00:14:26] Speaker A: In fact, they're escalating. [00:14:28] Speaker C: And. [00:14:28] Speaker A: And I'm losing myself and my babies. Yeah. [00:14:32] Speaker C: And there's like a societal, I think, shame towards parents who show nurture. So I think whenever you said something tana about you had to deny your intuition because of your peer environment. I think a lot of people find themselves, even if they want to parent in a more balanced way, they're feeling pressure from all these outside places of, you're not your child's friend. They need to get it together again. What you said, Jesse, it's all behavior focused. If the child's behavior is not immediately compliant, obedient, quiet, not disrupting anybody, not messing up the flow of the day for the adults or who, wherever they are, that's the. The focus or maybe the goal. So I think a pitfall with authoritarian is still in 2025. I think it's really prevalent. It's a prevalent way of thinking. It's a prevalent way of thinking that you should be. So I think a lot of parents are trying to deny their intuition to provide nurture because they're embarrassed by peer. Because they're embarrassed. Oh, this isn't. This isn't what a parent does. A parent doesn't stoop down to eye level when a kid is upset. They fold their arms and say, come, Come find me when you've got yourself together. Like, I think that that's common. So. And I know we have listeners kind of across the globe. I think many different cultures approach parenting in this way. So I'm not saying it's everyone, but many cultures really prioritize structure, boundaries, which, again, I hope you hear us saying this. Structure and boundaries are good and important and great. [00:16:04] Speaker A: They're just unhelpful in a vacuum of nurture. [00:16:06] Speaker C: When they're paired with the lack, when they're paired with the low nurture, that's when it can be. That's kind of problematic. [00:16:13] Speaker B: Let's go the other way, because I will say my. My origin story, at least in the way that I was parented, was tended to lean towards permissive, and it was high nurture. It was very. [00:16:28] Speaker A: It was. [00:16:30] Speaker B: My caregivers were really loving and, like, wanted to kind of foster that independence in us. It came. I don't want to caricature these to a place of, like, why would anybody do that? We know why people do this. We want success for our kids. We want them to navigate the world successfully, which is why we care. It's why we care about their obedience. You know, it's not just because it feels good to us. We know that that sets them up for success in the world, or at least that's what we think at the time. We are doing our best, and fostering that independence was really important in my family of origin. And so I grew up without a lot of rules, or maybe I did have rules, but I was allowed to negotiate them a lot. Or, you know, maybe the kids coming behind me didn't have the same sort of structure. I was the oldest in my family, all to the point of I started putting structure in my life myself. I started seeking that out because it helped me to feel safe. And so I made rules for myself as a teenager, as a college student, as a young adult, and then as a young adult. [00:17:39] Speaker C: You're a unicorn in that. [00:17:41] Speaker B: You think so? [00:17:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:42] Speaker B: I don't know. Y' all need to comment on. On whatever podcast platform you're listening in, I want to hear if you set up rules for yourself. [00:17:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:51] Speaker B: Because I think sometimes when that's absent, we try to find a place to create it for ourselves. Think about, if you're growing up without nurture, where are you going to look for that? You need it in your life. [00:18:02] Speaker A: That's good. [00:18:02] Speaker B: Jessica, where do we look for that? [00:18:04] Speaker C: Anywhere. Anywhere we can find it. [00:18:06] Speaker B: I was looking for structure, and so I found that I was thriving in maybe more legalistic cultures because it provided the structure I was looking for. And I was very much in my young brain. It's black or white. It's this or that. Which is why it's such a big deal to me now to say nobody's ever just one thing because I've kind of embraced. You know what? [00:18:29] Speaker A: It's. [00:18:31] Speaker B: It's not just. I can't just react to the way that I grew up in this permissive atmosphere. It's balanced. And so balancing, for me, meant well. I actually kind of came in as a parent with an authoritarian mindset like, oh, I'm going to provide expectations and structure and rules. I think that I forgot about the nurture part. And honestly, it's all pie in the sky until your kid tells you no for the first time. You know what I mean? Like, we can sit around this table and talk about what we should be doing. But when you're at the playground and you tell your kid it's time to go and they tell you no, or they slap you in the face, what are you gonna do then? Because people are watching you, you feel upset, and your response to your child and your response to your environment. Environment is happening. You know, like that's just happening. And so like, what are the voices. [00:19:32] Speaker A: Without you even meaning for it to. [00:19:34] Speaker B: Yeah, so I think, I think my default mode for the first couple of years was, without realizing it, very high structure. I mean, you guys have all heard me talk about that before, but I had to learn how to let that structure be boundaries and guidelines and coaching and then to add, to add some support where it was needed. And again, you know, it goes very much hand in hand with attachment styles, which we've talked about on the podcast before. And we get really into and cultivate connections. So if that fascinates you, jump in to that course. [00:20:11] Speaker C: But 100% you're pulling on a thread that I think is really important, which is this is. I don't want a caricature, but I think authoritarian parents are well meaning. They want more than anything for their kid to be safe and successful. And I think permissive parents, well meaning they have the best intentions. They want their kids to be safe and loved. And I think that's. That's overly simplifying it. But I just want to say wherever you find yourself, most of us operate on kind of a pendulum like you're describing. So if, you know, I was raised in a more authoritarian environment. So in my first interactions with being in charge of kids in some kind of way, which for me was a school setting, I leaned so permissive because it was my reaction. It was my. Well, I want to be the one that can give them emotional safety and I want to be the one where they feel safe to come to me with problems. But I swung too far and I had to find my way back to the structure that you're describing. So I think if you find yourself like reflecting on how you were parented, maybe find yourself reflecting on how you're parenting right now. I don't think any of us can really say that we're doing it perfectly, but we're all kind of leaning and finding our way. But I just wanted to highlight. I thought you said it really beautifully, Jesse, that the intentions of parents across the world. I want my kid to be safe, healthy, loved, successful. I want them to be able to go to school and be successful. I want them to have a job that gives them life and meaning, whatever that job may be or whatever your hopes are for your kids. So I hope you hear that throughout this podcast, wherever you. You are. [00:21:54] Speaker A: I appreciate what you're saying, Becca. I'm gonna piggyback on that and say I think that can even be true for the. The parents that would fall in the uninvolved category. [00:22:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I was thinking that, too. [00:22:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And. And you said it when you were sort of explaining the quadrants. I. I think most of the time, like, we can't say all the time. Most of the time, parents are coming in, whatever their circumstances or situation or place and stage of life is. We're just doing our best. So even those that would be falling, sadly, maybe, into that uninvolved category where there's low nurture and low structure, even in places where maybe they're losing custody of their children and those kinds of environments, I think that we can say most of the time, there's still a love for their kiddo. Right. They're still wishing for the best and hoping for the best, even if they don't have an internal working model or the structure and support in their own life to be able to be the one to provide that. So I think this is just, to me, like, when I look at this now, and maybe it's because I so deeply long for this for myself. Like, there is so much grace and insight and empathy and care as we are, literally. I mean, parenting is such a massive responsibility, and, man, the weight of it is just enormous. When you're responsible for not just providing instrumental care, but providing the emotional and nurturing support of another human being. It's a really big deal. So I think it would be a much softer place in this world if we even understood what it meant to view those people that are falling into that uninvolved category. And if you're in the world of adoption and foster care, it's possible that you are proximal to some parents who might be in that category. And what does that mean? Addiction? I think there's just a lot of reasons why. [00:24:00] Speaker B: I mean, I'm even gonna broaden it. There have been seasons where I felt like I was leaning, you know, or dipping into the uninvolved category. Maybe when there was. When there were intense surgeries happening for one family member and I was not really present. Yeah. Physically or emotionally present due to my location geographically, but also my. My capacity as a person. You know, I think about the time when my dad went into hospice. And these things, they don't happen to us. They don't happen in our lives. We're not parenting and then just only parenting. We're also like sons and daughters of other people. And we're also employees of organizations. And we're also, you know, we have all those other layers. And so. So sometimes those things max us out. And so if you're listening to this, I think I have two reasons, man. [00:24:56] Speaker A: I appreciate that perspective. [00:24:57] Speaker B: I have two reasons for, like, broadening the category and, like, humanizing the role. The first is because I don't want us all to be like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm authoritative. [00:25:07] Speaker A: That's not true. [00:25:08] Speaker B: When we teach this class live, I think because of the shame we can feel, we want to mask it and be like, oh, yeah, what's the right one? That's the one I am. [00:25:18] Speaker A: And that just maybe you were for five minutes yesterday. [00:25:21] Speaker C: Right? [00:25:22] Speaker A: But who are you? Like, yesterday or tomorrow? [00:25:24] Speaker B: I don't even know, you know, if I. If the goal is mindfulness, if the goal is being curious truly about myself and about what I'm bringing to the table, then I've gotta be honest about where I am. And that's why I think we've gotta humanize it, because nobody's ever just one thing, right? And we bounce around on this grid. [00:25:42] Speaker A: Man, I love that. [00:25:43] Speaker C: And just a really quick note about uninvolved, you mentioned instrumental care. Like, as a parent, there's this great responsibility to provide for literal physical needs. A house, clothing, food. Like, some of us are having to spend seasons where we're working two, three jobs, or we're working the night shift, or we're having to juggle and balance and rely on aftercare programs and things like that. So I really, really appreciate that, Jesse. And I think I'll just highlight. You have to provide for those physical needs, and sometimes that physically takes you away from being able to be more present in the day to day of how your kid is experiencing their. So I just want to normalize that too. I. I love what I love you saying. Let's not just say, oh, yeah, authoritative, authoritative. That's where I am, because that's what I'm supposed to be. It's more like moment by moment, day by day, season by season. Where are you and what support do you need or what pushes do you need to make internally? Or what do you need to negotiate with your parenting partner, if you have one, to try to find your way? [00:26:46] Speaker B: Here's my illustration. Because, you know, you guys Know I love an illustration. [00:26:50] Speaker C: Please. [00:26:50] Speaker B: This is like find my friends on your phone. You know, you pull it up or your life 360 or whatever, and you watch that little dot moving around the world. This is find my parenting style. [00:27:02] Speaker C: You know, it's moving. [00:27:03] Speaker B: You can see your little dot moving all throughout that quadrant throughout any given season or day. And so, yes, we can have so much grace for ourselves. And it's the awareness piece that we want to bring to it. [00:27:17] Speaker A: When we talk about this, we talk about it from the perspective of find your balance. And we have this internal conversation all the time where we're like, well, really, it's supposed to be high nurture, high structure. But I think this idea of find your balance, to me, in the middle of that word is this humanizing sort of grace. Like, hey, we're gonna just all do our best to find balance for us in a season, in a moment, in a day. So to me, it is when you said find your friend, it's like, find your balance around there and then just name it. Maybe, like, be curious about it, own it. And then what do I need now to balance this whole thing out? [00:28:02] Speaker B: Non judgmentally. [00:28:03] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to highlight one more thing before we move forward. I, as a mama of six precious children, I also want to name that I can be on different places in this quadrant with different children. And that is that attachment dance. That's that relationship dance that we talk about all the time. And there's so many other components present in the way that we are responding and maybe reacting to each other, whether that's self protection or a feeling of closeness. And so I can be in two totally different places with two totally different children on the same day. [00:28:42] Speaker B: Or you might be in one end of the quadrant and your parenting partner might be balancing you out on the other end of the. [00:28:48] Speaker A: That is so true. [00:28:49] Speaker B: Pretty common, actually. [00:28:50] Speaker A: I would, I would agree. That's the family complexity that, that you talked about. Like, that's such a complex system of engagement here. So we're not just one parenting style. [00:29:01] Speaker C: Also, that just made me think, I don't know that we've ever talked about it this way before, but that just made me think too. I'm thinking about a family with six kids, for example. Like, your family nurture looks six different ways. [00:29:14] Speaker A: Yes. [00:29:15] Speaker C: Structure looks six different ways. So you've got your reminder in your calendar to remind this one to pack their backpack, but you don't have to do that with the other one because they don't need that kind of structure. So Even in the structure and nurture, it looks different. So this is why it can feel so impossible and hard, because it's so complicated. Um, I. Yeah, I don't know that I've ever thought about it in those terms, but when you were saying it's so individual, I was like, wow. Even if I was just focusing on structure, with six kids, they would need six probably different things for structure or for nurture. [00:29:48] Speaker B: That's why I maxed out at two kids. [00:29:52] Speaker A: That is why I maxed out probably before six. But here we are anyway. [00:29:55] Speaker C: Here we are. No, y'. [00:29:57] Speaker A: All. Y' all. [00:29:57] Speaker B: All right. We're talking a lot about nurture and structure. In this course, we actually pull apart. What do those things mean? So let's do that a little bit in this episode. I want to talk about what does nurture mean when we say that word? Let's kind of level set and talk about what's it mean and what does it look like. [00:30:16] Speaker A: We use some words when we think about nurture, like valuing, supporting, meeting, emotional needs, connecting, accepting. So I think about value of, like, I see you, I cherish you. I accept you. You're welcome here. My presence is warm and comforting. So I think a lot of nurture is intangible. It's something between. It's the sense of the environment that's being cultivated between you and your child. And are you. We use this word a lot. Are you a safe person, psychologically and emotionally safe? And how does your child experience that from you? A sense of being known and cherished and accepted and belonging is the. Is what I think of when I think of nurture. [00:31:16] Speaker B: I hope, as you're listening, that you're even thinking, who has been that for you in your life? Maybe you guys want to answer. Who has been a nurturing presence in your life that when you think of this person, you're like, oh, man, this person. And this is what it looked like. They did these things. [00:31:35] Speaker A: I mean, the first person that comes to mind. And I know that I'm privileged to even say this, but it was my dad who passed away, just tender and playful. And I knew growing up that, like, there was nobody in the world that he loved more than me. Like, I just felt that in my bones. Like, I just was so. He just delighted and cherished me. And so there was, like, literally nothing I could do wrong. And so I think of my dad, who I miss so very much, but am so. And my mom is. Is amazing, too. I don't ever want, especially mom, if you're Listening. I do not want you to think that I did not feel that from you, but I think I understand the gift it is to feel that from a father. And so I know that it just deeply impacted who I am, and. And I miss him a lot. [00:32:22] Speaker C: Oh, man. I feel like it's like a Rolodex in my brain of mentors, teachers, coaches. But the one that really stands out is my grandmother Tarlet. She's not Granny or Grandma. Grandmother Tarleton. She passed away in 2020. But she just. The word delight that you just said, Tana. She delighted in her grandkids. We could do no wrong. We put stickers on the bottom of her really nice dining table that are still there to this day. Like when, you know, 30 years ago, I put some stickers, and she never let anyone take them away because I had put them there. So she just. She did value each of us for our individuality, for our unique things. She had different conversations with each of her grandkids. So I think that kind of just warm presence and, like, I'm always going to be cheering you on, kind of a. Kind of a sense. [00:33:13] Speaker A: You asked a question, and Becca and I are looking at each other, both tearing up. [00:33:16] Speaker B: I know. [00:33:17] Speaker A: Which means it touches your heart. So there's something about it that feels. [00:33:21] Speaker B: Well, you can't talk about someone who has emotionally. Has emotionally connected with you without that emotionally touching you. [00:33:31] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. [00:33:32] Speaker B: I was even thinking about. Again, it's not all or nothing, guys. Even growing up in a more permissive culture, in my family, I had moments of nurture with my parents. I was thinking, while you guys were sharing of times, when my dad told me he was proud of me, and I was aware that no one had told my dad that in his life. So he was telling me intentionally, like, that emotional connection. And I think even as a child, I was very aware of it. Of, like, he's telling me something that he wants me to have that he didn't have that emotional connection, or, like, the playfulness, the playfulness of your relationship with your caregiver. I also think about certain friends and teachers and mentors that I had as I was growing up. Maybe pastors at my church or youth interns, People that really took an interest in me and treated me like I was special. I didn't need a participation trophy for everything I did. But everyone wants to be seen. You know, you're looking for the people in the world. Doesn't Kurt Thompson say something like that? [00:34:44] Speaker A: We're born looking for who is looking for us. Yeah, yeah. [00:34:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that's nurture, y'. [00:34:49] Speaker A: All. That is. Yeah, that's the essence of connection. [00:34:52] Speaker B: And so in cultivate connection, we'll explain, like, nurture actually communicates to our children. So what are some of those things that we identify? Nurture communicates? [00:35:02] Speaker C: Yeah, it communicates that your feelings matter and your opinions matter, what you think and feel really matters. Communicates that you're loved and secure, that you're worthy, that you're valued, you're safe, you're seen. And then ultimately, we kind of like to sum up nurture with this idea that you can trust me. [00:35:23] Speaker B: Love that. I even wonder if you're, you know, as you're listening, folding your laundry or driving in the car, taking your walk. Whatever you do, when you listen to your podcasts, maybe even just bring some awareness to the level of trust that you have in your home, with your children, with each relationship that you have. And if you feel like there is trust lacking from you to them, from them to you, then we would say nurture. Nurture is going to be one of the keys that unlocks that, that builds that. That starts cultivating that trust in your home. [00:36:01] Speaker A: I would love to just say, maybe put some legs on this. Like, what is it? What does it look like? How do we provide nurture in the middle of hectic schedules and running to and fro and busy and those kinds of things? Again, I will say this was something I had to be intentional about. But once I did it, I'm like, this actually feels really good to me, too, as a mom. Like, I can do these very sweet, thoughtful things, and I'm building and something into my kiddos, and it's giving back to me. So just a few things that come off the top of my head. I'm certain y' all could share. A couple of nights ago, it's, you know, we're. When we're the recording of this episode, we're like a month into the start of the school year. And what school means, and we'll talk about in a minute, is a lot of structure. So we're back to the structure that was missing over the summer, which means there's a lot of do this, get this, we gotta go running, hustling, that kind of thing. So I was tucking one of the kids into bed, and I just said, hey, sweetie, can I have your eyes? And they, like, looked at me, and I just, like, said all the things that you would want your child's heart to hear. I love you so much. I am so proud of you. You are just Giving everything you've got this last month. I am so grateful for how you're showing. I'm just lavishing words of affirmation, which is not always my natural inclination. So I'm having to sort of sometimes go against what is natural for me. And their whole face just lit up and, like, gave me the biggest hug and, like, biggest kiss on the cheek and then just, like, exhaled. You saw their whole body release and, like, fall off to sleep. That's what nurture looks like right there. It can also be. On the way to school this morning, a little bit of a hustle and bustle. One of the kids forgot their school iPad. We're halfway there. This child's never forgotten their school iPad. And it was, oh, I forgot my iPad. Nurture is. It's all right, sweetie. No problem. Dad can bring it to school right now. I don't need to teach this kid a lesson. They are so responsible. This is not a moment for a lesson. This isn't. I know this kid. They're gonna beat themselves up. They apologize multiple times. I'm like, babe, we're all human. It's no big deal. It was a hectic morning. We got you. That's nurture. [00:38:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:16] Speaker A: They don't need a lesson. They do not need a lesson on responsibility. This kid needs that. We're all human. We all make mistakes, Bubba. Got you. Which is your point, Becca. It's gonna look so different for different kids. It really, really is. It could be my, you know, 20 something year old that walked into the kitchen late at night the other night was like, hey, mom, this kiddo doesn't drive. Hey, mom, I haven't had Taco Bell in a long time. Do you think they're still open? Nurture is. I think they probably are. Love. You want to go around and get some Taco Bell? That's nurture. That for that kid in that moment, it can look so many different ways, and it's going to look so unique for each kiddo. [00:38:53] Speaker B: Unique for each kiddo and unique for each parent. You know, we talk about play personalities, we talk about love languages. Like, those things tap into nurture, but they're going to look different depending on what your personality is like as a parent and what your child's personality is like, how they receive that. [00:39:13] Speaker A: It can look like a trip to Hobby Lobby to get the craft supplies to support, you know, a new hobby. It can look like driving them to practices if they love their sports. It can look like, you know, a high five. It can just take form in so Many different ways. It can look like a fancy bath, as Jesse calls her bath. Fancy baths. I did one of my kiddos, I bought him a bath tray and did a fancy bath a couple weeks ago right when school started because I knew they would be overwhelmed and stressed. So there's 101 ways you play, laugh, goof off, sing songs, dance, party, atta boys. It's celebration. And belonging is really what it is at the essence. [00:39:51] Speaker C: I wanted to say one more category that I'm thinking of is, like, when our kid has to do a hard thing, nurture is just getting in there with them. And sometimes that is my sweet baby has to get her eyes checked every month because she was born so early, and she screams and it's horrible. And I hold her every time, and I'm teaching myself because what I want to say is, it's okay, but it's not okay. They're poking metal into her eyes. So I'm trying to say, even though she's tiny, I'm here. Mommy's right here. That's one way it can look. It can also look like your kid has to do a really hard math problem. And this is so silly, but I can picture my big sister who is just a mom that I love to look up to, and we grew up in another country, and so she was making this really silly accent about it, and she turned it into this big, funny show, and it was really hard math, but she got my nephew to get laughing and kind of get unstuck by just being super, super silly with it. So sometimes it's, you know, our kid has to do something at school that they don't want to do. And sometimes it's that, like, warm, Mommy's here. Other times, it's making it fun and silly or making them laugh at you like, oh, I could never do that. I'm terrible at tap dancing. But let me try as you get ready for your tap performance. Like, it's so. It's all the things we're talking about. It doesn't look just one way. It's showing up. [00:41:18] Speaker B: I think of three words. Two of them are just to help me because they're cues to me to soften up. The first is warmth. And you said it a couple of times even when you were describing it. Tana. If I can make my eyes warmer, if I can make my tone of voice warmer, if I can make my body posture warmer or softer, I'm looking for that. So warm and with are kind of my two words that I try. And my little mantra I try and tell myself, can I do something with them? Whatever that looks like, whether it's something hard, whether it's something fun. I think my default is because of the way I grew up. Like, you can do this on your own, and to do. To do it with is nurturing. So those are my two reminders to myself. And then I often think for the third word about what Dr. Dan Siegel says, which is he says, we are always having, in this balance to choose whether to push. We're pushing or cushion. And so nurture is that cushion. Like, do they just need a soft place to land? I think about the iPad, like, just cushion that they didn't need a push this morning. That in that choice, you got to cushion. [00:42:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:39] Speaker B: So let's talk about the push, because we can't do the nurture without the structure. And I'm going to say, I think connected parenting is getting a bad rap on social media right now, because when we are caricaturing connected parenting or I really actually hear this about gentle parenting, which I don't think that necessarily connected parenting encapsulates all of gentle parenting, or maybe it adds some more structure to it. It's not just nurture. So let's talk about the need for structure, what it looks like, and how, you know, how that's going to show up for us. [00:43:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Structure is not a bad word. Yes. [00:43:18] Speaker B: Amen. Thank you, everyone. It's not a bad word. [00:43:20] Speaker A: And we need it. I mean, both of those things are needed. So we have a little sort of internal saying that if a child needs structure and you give them nurture, you impede their ability to grow. And if a child needs nurture and you give them structure, you impede their ability to trust. That saying implies that structure is needed for growth. And we've talked about that's even probably what brought most of us to that structured parenting is we want capable, strong children who are able to take on, you know, the real world. So we get that a lot. That's almost always present. If we're talking about this conversation of the context of the beginning of Cultivate Connection, our parenting course, what about the real world? Is a question that's always present. It was present in my own mind. I had to do a lot of business with that. What does it mean to prepare children and humans for the real world? Well, the real world has requirements, things we have to get done. We cannot just opt out of hard things. [00:44:24] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:25] Speaker A: That. That isn't the way the world works. But I was literally thinking about your example of your Sister. She, you know, brought in her funny accent to help her child do the math problem. [00:44:38] Speaker C: Yes. [00:44:38] Speaker A: And the expectation that the math problem will get done. That's the structure. Yeah, we've got to get our homework done, sweetie. We're going to get this thing done. I can be a soft place to land. I can offer you empathy. I can make you a fancy bath beforehand. I can get you a treat while you do it, but we're going to get that done. And so it's. That's the structure. It's the sort of the coming back to the responsibilities, your guiding. I walked in and before we started recording, Jesse and I had a few minutes to catch up. And I was like, oh, it was a tough morning at the Ottinger house because there was a little bit of a fall apart. And I just kind of had to lay a boundary down and be like, hey, we're not gonna do that this morning that way. So I didn't allow every behavior that was going on in my house this morning to go on unchecked. I needed to come in and be like, that's not how this is gonna go. We can do a lot of other things, but that's not what we're doing. That's a boundary. All of us need boundaries, so we're not throwing our boundaries out the window. We've gotta teach values. We have to correct behavior that's harmful to them, themselves, their future, their peers. How we do that, man, oh, man, that is what cultivate connection, really IS. It is 18 modules on how to correct the behavior that you absolutely know. You want your child to have different skills and ability to stop doing so, please. It's predictability, it's routines, it's rituals, it's rhythms, it's. It is structure, it's schedules. It's those kinds of things that are needed. I actually think that structure can be very nurturing. Jesse, you said it when you were talking about your own story. I needed this thing called structure. And in going and creating and finding it, I was able to be at rest. So I think the right kind of structure applied in the right kind of way actually brings the nervous system often back to rest and regulation. So I actually think structure is a good and positive thing in the life of a child. When it is balanced with warmth and cushion and love and nurture, it's a good thing. [00:46:52] Speaker B: I think predictability is a big word here because. And again, that's going to vary from child to child. Their need for certain levels of structure that you discern as a parent and even that they require in their personalities. There's somebody in my family that asks, what's for dinner? Every single day. Every single day, y'. [00:47:15] Speaker C: All. [00:47:15] Speaker B: And I have it posted on a calendar that that person can see. Um, I might have even answered the question in the morning, But I know that the structure that person requires is needing to see and hear multiple times a day that food will be served, and this is the food. And if you had expectations about wanting something different, that you were allowed to think about it ahead of time. Some of. Some of us really rail against this type of structure that our kids want and need. Like, oh, why should I have to provide that? Like, especially if we are lower structure, we don't want to raise our level of structure. [00:47:55] Speaker A: We don't want those boundaries around ourselves. [00:47:57] Speaker B: We don't want to be right. Structure is limits. It is telling a kid, no, they can't do that. Or telling, you know, telling yourself, I have to do this. It's. It. It does represent limits, and people don't like limits. But it's those types of things that do create. [00:48:14] Speaker A: I would like to go ahead and say the people are me. People don't like limits. And that is Hannah Ottinger. Fill in the blank. I do not like limits. Okay, yeah, fair. But I have to. That doesn't mean that I get to operate that way for my own best and for my children's best. To your point, Jessie, there are going. [00:48:31] Speaker B: To be things that, I mean, you've heard me talk about before. Before. I think I, I. We joke about me being so high structure. I. I do have somebody in my family that needs that, that really needs that to thrive. And so whether I want to be that way or not, now, granted, sure, I lean that direction, but if I didn't lean that direction, that child still needs that from me. [00:48:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:54] Speaker B: And to. To set us up both up for success, I need to find the right balance for us both to thrive. [00:49:03] Speaker A: So it is. [00:49:03] Speaker B: It's the balance. [00:49:05] Speaker C: I'm thinking a lot of structure is communication. A lot of structure is communicating when things are going to happen, how things are going to happen, what is negotiable and what is not negotiable. Like the math problem example, or we've got to get to school. So how can we get to school? I know, you know, different seasons of I have to get up far earlier than I would like to get up to in order to get things done that need to happen. Like, that is structure. Structure is the limits that we decide as parents and that our day to day lives require. It's both of those things and communicating that structure to kids. Lots of times it gets real power struggly. Lots of times it gets real demanding. It gets real, we've got to get to school and you know that. Come on. But if we think about structure as, okay, I have to, we have to get to school. That's the boundary, that's the limit. How am I going to communicate that? What are, how am I going to offer that to my child? What is that going to look like? How's it going to play out? Yeah, it's, it's proactive and responsive. So I don't want to make it sound like it's just one of those. [00:50:12] Speaker A: Things, but we talked a little bit about what nurture tells our children. I think it's interesting that structure tells our children some of the same things. [00:50:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:50:23] Speaker A: You know, nurture tells them, hey, you can trust me. You know what structure tells a child? Hey, I'm predictable and you can trust me. [00:50:30] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:50:31] Speaker A: So again, these are not opposite things. They have this beautiful sort of yin yang relationship in how we are wanting to communicate some very important things in our relationship with our kiddos and as they are going to go out in the real world. Right. So some other things that sort of, that kind of thing tells them is your body does have limits and we have to sort of figure out how to accept those limits. Right. There's only certain things you can and cannot do within the confines of your culture and society that are acceptable for you to do. And we wanna lay those things into place. When you support a child who needs structure, you're actually modeling for them how to support somebody who needs structure. Right. So you're teaching them some things. Hey, you matter to me enough that I'm going to provide this kind of an environment for you to thrive. You have value. So structure can also communicate value in the sense of being known and seen. It can also tell them, hey, we have within our ability the capability to be prepared. So I think specifically about kiddos that might lean towards anxiety naturally, this idea of structure, routine, as Jesse was talking about this to your point, Becca, preparing them ahead of time, talking about it, talking about it after. That's very structured and that communicates you are capable of being successful, of doing this thing, of being prepared. You have what you need to be successful. It almost is a counterbalance in some ways to anxiety. It is empowering to give structure in routine and rituals and predictability and to set limits. [00:52:19] Speaker C: And whether we want to admit it or not, all Human beings need some level of structure, like whether we're a fly by the seat of our pants person or whether we're very type A. We all do need structure. It can look different. Like it doesn't have to look exactly the same in my house or your house or your house, but we all need it. Is it okay if we answer the same question you asked about nurture? I'm thinking about the person who provided structure in my childhood. [00:52:45] Speaker B: Oh, yes, please. [00:52:46] Speaker C: And that was just a really cool conversation. Would you guys. Can you think of anyone in your childhood who kind of. You think back and you're like, wow, that person gave structure and it really helped me grow. [00:52:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I can immediately think, and this isn't in my childhood, but I was just telling this story the other day about, about a professional mentor that I had in my 20s and I was doing a student ministry at the time, which can feel real loosey goosey, guys. It's, you know, wild world out there. So I showed up to go eat lunch at a school with a youth ministry team and my mentor said, what are you wearing? I was wearing a T shirt and shorts, I think. And he was like, you can't wear that. Go change clothes. And there was a lot of structure to that. He knew I could handle it. And then I was like, why? I mean, we're just going to be with teenagers. He was like, you're not a teenager. He's like, you're their mentor, you're their pastor. You look sharp, you play sharp. He was teaching me some really important professional lessons that I needed to learn, and it pushed me. Now, the thing that I often think about is we had relationship. There was trust and relationship there. So it didn't feel disrespectful to me. The way that he shared it with me was like, exactly how it was well received. And so I went and I changed and I put on something a little more professional so I could look like a grownup. And then we went and ate, you know, lunch with the teenagers. But I think about that person in my life giving me a lot of needed structure in that very loosey goosey, nurturing environment of student ministry. [00:54:32] Speaker A: I, interestingly enough, I went straight back to my parents and I was walking through like, oh, yeah, we had. There was a rhythm and, and structure to our day. There was a lot of things in my family, sort of extended family that were always evolving and quite uncertain. And our house was a house of respite for a lot of hurting teenagers and young adults. But the rhythm and predictability and flow of how our small little nuclear family ran was. Was certain. Like there was a schedule, there was predictability, there were rhythms. There was, to your point, like there was always. Dinner was sort of made this way. My mom was a working mom, so there was a natural flow of how the house ran and that I, like, never had any anxiety. So they really did provide very loving and warm. But especially during the school week, there was a way the house ran. And it was always, always, always very predictable. As my dad was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in my middle school years, he retired and was home more, which meant I got more of that nurture daddy that got me teary earlier, but it also changed the flow of our family. And so I saw him sort of up his structure and sort of helping the house run a certain way. So it wasn't necessarily pushing maybe the way we would think of structure, but it was ritual, rhythm and predictability, which is structure. And it was very present in the midst of some of the external unknowns of the larger family. [00:56:08] Speaker C: I'm just thinking about my dad. He's the most self disciplined person I've ever met. So he modeled it in his own. Like he runs even to this day, in his 60s, like eight miles on a. On a regular basis. He just goes out and runs eight miles. Like he's very disciplined. So the structure I'm thinking of as a kid is we all had to play an instrument for one year. That was the boundary. We got to choose the instrument, but we had to start it. We had to do the lessons for the year. Didn't matter if we hated it. We had to do it for one year. It wasn't. You have to do an instrument for the rest of your life. Right. And same with a sport. You had to play a sport for. [00:56:43] Speaker B: One year or you have to love it. It wasn't. You have to. [00:56:46] Speaker C: It wasn't. You have to love it. [00:56:47] Speaker A: You don't have to play it with a happy heart. [00:56:48] Speaker C: Yeah. But it was the boundary and the structure. And he really taught us a lot about following through on our. [00:56:55] Speaker A: Becca, hold on. I'm. [00:56:56] Speaker C: I played three sports. [00:56:58] Speaker A: Okay, but then what instrument? Well, what sports and what instrument? [00:57:00] Speaker C: I played the trumpet. [00:57:01] Speaker A: Okay. [00:57:02] Speaker C: I was in the middle school band for. I was first here for quite a while. [00:57:06] Speaker A: Of course you were. This is no surprise to anybody that knows you in real life. [00:57:09] Speaker B: And I did love it. [00:57:10] Speaker A: And I did love it, and I was amazing at it. [00:57:12] Speaker C: And I'll be honest, I quit the. So we spent one semester in Oklahoma. We. I Grew up in Russia. So we spent one semester in Oklahoma with a huge middle school that had this amazing band, and it was awesome. And then we went back, and my school band was like 10 people, and it sounded really bad, and I got really embarrassed, and so I stopped playing the trumpet because I was like, we don't sound good, so therefore, I can't do this. Yes, I played volleyball, basketball, and soccer. It was something new. It was a small school, so I was not really particularly good at any of those things. But it kept me in good shape and I had a great time with my friends, and we got to travel around playing at different tournaments. And a lot of my childhood memories are wrapped up in being on those sports teams with those girls, so. [00:57:58] Speaker A: Okay, sorry I interrupted your very sweet thoughts about your daddy. I was like, tell me more. [00:58:03] Speaker B: Guidelines help you grow as a person. [00:58:05] Speaker C: They helped me stick with. They helped me, like, stick with things and have tenacity and persevere through tough things. Like. Yeah, okay. Funny story about my dad in sports. I. When I played basketball, he would get frustrated because I was too timid, which won't surprise you. So one time, as like, a haha structure nurturer, he was like, going to pay you basically, like, a dollar for every foul that you get in this game. [00:58:30] Speaker B: Nice. [00:58:31] Speaker C: I need you to foul out Becca. [00:58:33] Speaker A: I have done that. [00:58:34] Speaker C: I never did. I never fell out. But I. I said. [00:58:37] Speaker A: I was like, if you take the ball from somebody, I will give you $5. [00:58:41] Speaker C: Yeah, that was my. That was instruction, nurture. [00:58:44] Speaker A: Just last year, she's like, be aggressive anyway. [00:58:47] Speaker C: But no, I also. [00:58:48] Speaker A: I feel happy to know that I have modeled your dad, I think. Such a good man. [00:58:52] Speaker C: Papa. We call him Papa. So Papa Ed, I want to say one more thing about him. That is, he did push us. But you said rituals tana, which we talk about a lot. Routines are like, what happens every day in our family. What's the order of events? It can. It doesn't have to be super, super strict on times, but how do things happen? My dad was really big about rituals, which we talk about is kind of that balance of structure and nurture. So we said the same prayer as a family every morning before the first person left the house, whether that was at 5:00am or 8:00am like, there was a predictable thing that we did together. We did dinner time the same way, like you were saying. So I. I do want people to hear. It's not just pushing your kids. [00:59:32] Speaker B: Right. [00:59:32] Speaker C: It's also creating environments that they can count on. And so he. He comes to mind as someone who did both. [00:59:38] Speaker B: You know, I think when you think about pushing or about predictability, I just think of of it as the fence or the wall or the. Like, I'm in teenager season. You guys know this. And so structure a lot looks like at my house to be like, my name is not bro. Like, we were playing a while ago, but now I'm talking about something serious, and my name is not bro, and let's try again. You know, like, please up the respect or being the wall that the kid crashes into at 60mph with their displeasure about something. Like, I can hold the emotions. I can be emotionally present with my high nurture. But the wall means you're still gonna go back to the thing and do the thing tomorrow. [01:00:24] Speaker A: Yeah, right, Right. [01:00:25] Speaker B: Like, I can be both for you, which can be a little hard. [01:00:30] Speaker A: So y' all just not just a little hard, honey. It's so hard. [01:00:33] Speaker B: Really difficult. [01:00:34] Speaker A: I think that this. This is it. Like, this is the essence of it. And if it were easy, we wouldn't even be having this conversation or this podcast. Intuitively, probably very little of none of this is coming intuitively to most of you that are listening. Some part of it is, and then the other part is not. And it's the intention at which we talk about a lot. Like, we've got to push against probably some of our natural inclinations if we want to show up and be the parents that I think most of us want to be. You hit it beautifully, Jesse. When you gave the example of your dad, he did something for you that hadn't been done for him. And I think many of us and our listeners, this is our truth. We're trying to forge a new way. We're trying to find a new way of being, a different language, a different way of acting, a different way of being present and showing up and. And it is a dance. It's okay that you're not doing it perfectly. That's not even the expectation. It's just being mindful of. Literally. To your point, where are you on the quadrant? Find your phone, find your balance. Where are you? And how can you edit a little bit and try a few more skills? We talk a lot about how parenting is something we are constantly practicing. So there's no, you have evolved. It's. You're just continuing to show up and practice and grow and evolve. And maybe more than not, you're finding yourself on the high structure, high nurture, hopefully a little bit more than you were yesterday. And to me, if that's what we're doing. Then you're doing a really beautiful good job. [01:02:24] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. I needed to hear that today, too. I hope you listeners also got some encouragement from that. I think I can confidently say 15 years in. How long am I in? 14 years into my parenting journey, I have grown. I've grown as a person and I've grown as a parent. And what used to be lower nurture is higher nurture. And even what used to be lower structure is higher structure. And we get to practice that together. [01:02:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:58] Speaker B: And you again, just to circle back with our closing thought. You can't have one without the other. We want our kids to grow, but our kids can't grow on bones that break. They need the trust of the relationship before they can be challenged by us. And if you think about the way a baby starts out life, they don't start out with challenge. They start out with a lot of nurture and. And then they're going to grow. Right. So we've got to provide that trust, that foundation at the same time. Anyways, if you like this, then you can, you can interact and go deeper and more and cultivate connection. And I really would encourage you. It has completely changed the trajectory in life of Nyx and my parenthood in the same way that Mo and Tana talk about as well. And it's a great way to find community. So even if you're taking our online course, I encourage you to get some friends to take it and to discuss it together. Have your parenting partner take it. Discuss it together, because we can't do this alone. We need each other. Right. Well, thank you guys for a great conversation and we'll see you next time. [01:04:19] Speaker C: We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, the best way to support us going forward is to subscribe. We'd love to hear from you, leave a review, drop us a comment, or email us to let us know what you hope to hear in future episodes. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at etc, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empowered to Connect podcast. Until then, we're holding on to hope with you.