[E229] Connection Over Compliance: What We’re Really Teaching Kids in Hard Moments

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:04] Speaker B: To the Empowered to Connect podcast where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families and our communities. [00:00:18] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Empowered to Connect podcast. I'm Tana Ottinger and I'm here with Jesse Ferris today and we are excited that you all are joining us. We are bringing this topic of connection over compliance to the table. And when I hear that idea, it brings so much up in me because I think dealing with maybe what I would say is sometimes attention or we feel like connection is in sacrifice of compliance or if we're working towards compliance and we're going to break connection. So I think there's this interesting dance and intersection over this idea of connection and compliance. So I really want us to kind of just jump right in, Jesse, and start thinking about what is the tension that we live in when we think about connection and compliance. I'm thinking about those moments when you know something's not going great, right? Your kiddo is having a hard time or there's a meltdown, or there's a door that's been slammed, or there are tears that are welling up or a kiddo is shutting down. And by God, Holly, you just need to move forward and you're hunting for can we please just move on with X, Y and Z. And sometimes that feels antithetical to connection. So tell me what comes up for you when you think about that dance between connection and compliance. [00:01:53] Speaker B: I really love this topic because I think it is an area which I've struggled in over the course of my parenting and, and the first thing that comes to my mind, Tana, is my own values are what I come right up against when I'm in a moment where I think I really value my kids compliance. I recognize that especially as I was a brand new mom, I wanted my kids to do what I said. And there were so many reasons for that, right? Like if you unpack that there are lots of different reasons why I would want the compliance of my daughters. I mean it makes me look good externally. It also like I believe that is like the best way to thrive. Like I what the things I was requiring of my kids was for their good, usually sometimes for my own sanity, but that also is for their good. So it was, I think it was immediately coming right up against my values of like I do think my kids should comply. And so I was having a very hard time setting aside that mindset or that top priority. Especially when I hear you say connection over compliance. I'm hearing like you're saying a reprioritization is maybe in store. And I'm like, ooh, that was really hard for me to set aside that as the top priority in order to prioritize something else. [00:03:24] Speaker A: Can you give me an example? I'm thinking about for our listeners, Think about maybe that last hard moment you had with a kiddo. To your point, it could be a proactive instruction. It could be as simple as, hey, it's bath time. It doesn't have to be a meltdown. It can simply be thinking about that. We were just to get the evening routine done and you've got a kiddo that's showing resistance. So, you know, there's all kinds of moments when I think we're having to do this again. Dance between connection and compliance. So what comes up for you? A hard moment, a sticky moment, a moment of resistance. When you think about that, it's easier. [00:04:06] Speaker B: For me to look at. [00:04:06] Speaker A: And then maybe what's really happening? Let me ask that question. What's really happening? What's happening in you? What's happening in them? [00:04:12] Speaker B: I think it's easier for me to look way back. So when my kids were little, it would be something like what you just said. It would be like, it's time to leave the playground. And I say, okay, it's time to leave. And maybe I've even, I've probably given them some lead ups to that to warm up that transition, and they just don't want to. I have teenagers now, so it's going to look more like, hey, you know, you need to go up and take a shower before, you know, after dinner. And they'll be like, no, I showered 14 days ago, that's fine. [00:04:44] Speaker A: Or whatever. [00:04:45] Speaker B: Whatever our teens tell us, right? And especially, you know, all these years of collaborating with them, they have a lot of agency. They are really feeling the agency and autonomy that they have as part of that desire for secure attachment. So I even come up against it now, years of parenting this way, where I'm like, I just want you to do the thing I said. And I think that's underneath it for me. It's like, it takes time and energy and thought to negotiate. It feels disrespectful sometimes to have to negotiate every little thing about a teenager's life or about a kid's life. And that can wear on you. If it's your fifth negotiation of the afternoon, it's like, come on, can you just do the dishes, please? This is your chore and it is your night, so just get on with it. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, so let's think about that. I love those examples. Let's talk about the dishes and just get on with it. Maybe let's hone in on that one as a real life example. So let me ask that question again. What do you think's going on inside of us, and what do you think's going on inside of them? And, like, the reason, for our listener's sake, why are we asking that question? Because I would say that our children need to be able to comply in a lot of ways, like it is to your point. It is good for us to move things forward, take care of responsibilities, get homework done, you know, contribute to the household, be respectful of others. Like all of these important values that we. We do want our kiddos to have, empathy, the ability to regulate, the ability to. I mean, all of that stuff that we talk about, the good stuff, that is part of what is happening in us. [00:06:43] Speaker B: Yes. [00:06:45] Speaker A: And it just happens in the blink of an eye. What's happening in them and why is it so important that it's all happening right then? You know what I mean? Like, it is all happening right then. It's happening. The dishwasher door was just thrown open. The sink is full of dishes. It's time to do the dishes. Everything I just talked about is happening. All right there, right? [00:07:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And usually at our house, the dishes happens at the end of the day as one of the very last things, when everyone has already had a full day of school and work and all of those things. I appreciate that you're approaching it with this nuance because. Yeah, you're right. Compliant. It's not that compliance isn't important. And we are good parents for wanting our kids to, quote, unquote, obey or follow our rules or do the thing we're asking. Yeah. To unpack what's going on. Ask your question again, because. [00:07:42] Speaker A: So, like, when that's happening and you've got a kiddo, you said, let's do the dishes. It's time to do the dishes, and you got a kiddo that. IT grumbles, mumbles this literally happened last night. [00:07:52] Speaker B: We finished dinner. [00:07:54] Speaker A: It was. [00:07:54] Speaker B: We were celebrating Ethiopian Christmas a little late, so we'd had our Ethiopian takeout food. Malcolm. Gina. To anyone celebrating that holiday. And I said, whose night is it to do the dishes? That was a great. That was a great introduction to that, wasn't it? [00:08:11] Speaker A: Way to go. I love that. [00:08:14] Speaker B: I had taken my plate into the kitchen, and as I was putting it in the sink, I said, whose night is it to do the dishes? And you know what happened? Everyone in my family was like, oh, let me do it. No, let me do it. No, it was the opposite, you know, and it's kind of our general expectation. We try to be flexible with this because our schedule looks different week to week, but we like for our daughters to take turns doing the dishes. So it's probably not Nick's turn. Unless both our daughters are at extracurriculars. It's probably one of my daughter's turns. But they both gave reasons why it wasn't their turn. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:56] Speaker B: So that's what was happening for them in that moment. And it was a quick transition, and I was giving options, which probably wasn't super wise for me. [00:09:06] Speaker A: Instead of a gentle reminder, hey, so and so, don't forget it's your night tonight. [00:09:10] Speaker B: Yes. [00:09:11] Speaker A: Yeah. So let's talk about that. So again, we're talking about this idea of compliance over connection. And I could, if I was going to be, like, really dramatic about it, I might say, like, this is actually everything empowered to connect is about. [00:09:24] Speaker B: Yes. No, I don't think that's overstating it. [00:09:27] Speaker A: Every single one of our strategies and skills and, like, the things that we talk about, like, come to bear right here in this moment, because there are so many ways to navigate that scenario where you actually don't have to give up compliance or connection. Right. I think that it's not one or the other. And maybe this is where I think the kind of parenting and caregiving that we advocate for gets a bad rap. [00:09:59] Speaker B: Yes, for sure. [00:10:00] Speaker A: Because I think sometimes we think it means giving in. Yeah. Letting them off the feet, being walked all over. Yeah. Yeah. That's not it at all. Like, I'm guessing before y' all went to bed, one of your daughters did the dishes last night because it was their turn. [00:10:13] Speaker B: Yes, ma'. [00:10:14] Speaker A: Am. Right. That's the structure that we talk about so very often now we've got to navigate how do we build connection, and how do we, to your point, prioritize connection over compliance? But we don't get away. We don't throw compliance out the window. How do we prioritize connection over compliance in that moment to still build those skills, teach responsibility, contribute to the household, blah, blah, blah, blah. So kind of unpack that some more for me. What's coming up for you? [00:10:49] Speaker B: Well, and listen, guys, this is what it is. That's what Tan is saying. Like, this is where, when we practice these principles, these values of connected parenting over and over and over, that this is what starts to come more naturally to us. I Mean, I'm putting myself under the microscope. And I love that you even pulled me in to give an example from yesterday, because I hope that our listeners are hearing, like, yeah, I come to these moments thoughtlessly all the time. I'm like, whose night is it to do the dishes? That's a great segue into, like, great transition, Jesse, you know, but it's not a horrible one. I went into it thoughtlessly, but what my experience is going to allow me to do is to, like, in real time, recalibrate, reassess, figure out what's needed in the moment. And I even have ideas for what I would go back and do proactively the next time, you know, and when we talk about those other skills of readjusting and all of that. So I think if I could go back and redo it, I probably could have thought about whose night it was to do the dishes, to your point, and gently said something to them, gave them a heads up. And I probably. I was in the car with both of my girls at separate times yesterday afternoon. So I probably would have brought it up then, which would have been at least an hour before any of that happened, and I probably would have couched it between two other subjects that they were interested in talking about. [00:12:29] Speaker A: Right, right. So. But we didn't do that. I didn't always do that. We don't always do it. Right. Do you mind if we just keep talking about the scenario? [00:12:36] Speaker B: Let's talk about it real time, in the moment. You know, they both gave their reasons why it wasn't their turn, and then there was a little conflict happening. Right. Because they start arguing, and there's an opportunity for the parents to jump into that argument, guys, you know, we tell you whatever. [00:12:53] Speaker A: Bloody, bloody block. Yeah. [00:12:56] Speaker B: My memory of that moment is that Nick and I, who are on the same page with these strategies, kind of both with our words, maybe, not with our body language kind of wrapped around the girl whose turn we knew it was and said, hey, you know, it was like kind of a managing of the moment of the one whose turn it wasn't. We needed her to get out of the way. Right? [00:13:22] Speaker A: Yeah, Right. Exit stage left. Don't rub it in. [00:13:26] Speaker B: Right. [00:13:27] Speaker A: Don't amp it up. [00:13:27] Speaker B: Don't keep arguing. [00:13:29] Speaker A: Don't be like I told you. [00:13:30] Speaker B: So I was right. You know, like, we don't want her to continue to escalate the situation. And the girl whose turn it was, we didn't want to escalate that situation either. So I believe we had told the girl who was off the hook for the night that now would be a great time to go take a shower. And then we told the girl whose turn it was that the Alexa in the kitchen was waiting for her to turn on the music that she would enjoy listening to while she did the dishes. And then there was a question which was gonna include. The question inevitably, usually has something to do with gaining some autonomy back. So, you know, she doesn't have autonomy whether she can decline doing the dishes. But the question was, can I listen to it really loud? And we said, yep. We gave a yes. And that was enough in that moment with the particular circumstances that were going on for that child to go into the kitchen and start doing the dishes with her music of choice at top blast. [00:14:42] Speaker A: Oh, Jesse, there's 101 things we could talk about in that five second interaction. Maybe it was more like five minutes, but that little interaction in the dynamic of your family. Right. So many like, oh, man, if I could hit rewind, I would have, should have, could have, but I can't. [00:14:57] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. [00:14:58] Speaker A: And you, uh, oh, lob read the room row. Error. Done. Now intervene. And intervene with what I love about this. If I can reflect it back. [00:15:09] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do it. I love it. [00:15:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Such a balance of nurture and structure. And I love how y' all were caregiving for both girls. There was no loser or winner in that interaction with your family. [00:15:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:25] Speaker A: Because even the kiddo that was quote unquote off the hook still needed to go take care of a task. [00:15:30] Speaker B: That's right. [00:15:30] Speaker A: AKA the shower. It wasn't like, oh, sweetie, it's not your turn. You can go jump on the trampoline or you can go like, you weren't overly praising the one that didn't have to do the dishes. You were still keeping the structure high for the evening. We all still have responsibilities to build towards bedtime. We're going to go each take care of those. So I love how there was a balanced, measured approach. No winners and losers. Oh. So that's. That's like gold right there. And I think, man, we can accidentally do that if we don't mean to. Right. So I just don't want the listeners to not hear the beauty and gift and wisdom in keeping structure high for the whole situation. While, man, it like, quickly pulling for something fun and playful. Quickly pulling for a. We could call that a lot of things. A transition object, a pathway for fun, a playful engagement. You could call it a little bit of a distraction, get our mind off the hard. You know, there's a Couple of other things that could have happened. Like, what if that didn't work? [00:16:42] Speaker B: I was just gonna say in there, on any given night, y', all, we know this, it could have not worked. I don't wanna do that. [00:16:48] Speaker A: I don't. [00:16:49] Speaker B: I don't care about the music or whatever. We would reach for the next thing in our bag. Right. So this kind of goes to the principle or the strategy we have of giving choices only. I'm just thinking of them in my mind of, like, the choice is always going to include doing the dishes. What are the different ways I can give her that, get her back on track and that appeal to her. I'm kind of this way, too. If I've got to go work out, then it's like, what's going to happen? What will be fun for me while I'm working out, listening to the audiobook I'm into or whatever, you know? So the next thing I would have grabbed from my bag is something appealing to her. What is something that will be. Is it gonna be like doing it together? Am I gonna have to do that to get it back on track? Would it be. I can sit in the kitchen and you can tell me all about that project that you're really excited about. There's an art project she's really excited about getting started. So it was like, maybe you can do that. It's not that. I have these written down on a list, and I'm going to go through them one by one. I'm having to think on my feet. And in any given moment, option A and B may not work. So I've got to be able to keep coming up with stuff. But what we're offering is always an idea of connection. It is. I know you. Let's play let's be together. Or let me show you that I know you and I know what you like. You know, maybe it's. Can I fix you a fancy drink while you do it? Can, you know, whatever is going to be appealing to that child? Yeah. Or why don't you do this? And then you can sit down and play video games for the next 30 minutes afterwards. I'm thinking of what's. What's in it for that kid and how can I. Yeah, how can I meet them there? I know. I think at the very base of that is, like, just my own awareness of. I know what it's like to have to start doing a task that I don't like to do. I don't want to do the dishes. That's why I started Delegating it to. [00:18:57] Speaker A: My kids, you know, like, let's be honest about that. [00:19:01] Speaker B: So, yeah, that's part of the connection, too, is just the acknowledgement within myself. Like, okay, I get that this is hard. I don't have to be mad at this kid for needing a starter and needing something to help them get started. [00:19:15] Speaker A: Okay, we're just going to continue on this example because what I hear you saying is, hey, I needed to keep the structure high. [00:19:24] Speaker B: Yes. [00:19:24] Speaker A: Like, the expectation was still that they were going to do the dishes. What you were able to do successfully in the moment because, you know, the secret sauce just worked that night, was you were able to add a little nurture and it was successful. So when you say, okay, well, what if that wouldn't have worked? What would I have done? Well, what I hear you saying is you would up the nurture. So you're going to say, I'm going to try a different way or a different kind or, you know, doing it with her. So that modeling that side by side presence, et cetera, et cetera. Well, what if it had just continued to escalate? I think the other thing that I want to bring to the table is what if we need to pull the lever on negotiating the expectation that the dishes would get done by that kiddo at that time. Right. So again, this is pulling out all of these strategies that we continue to put into practice. We are not advocating for, oh, you know what, honey, I know you're tired. You just don't have to do them. I mean, maybe that is the answer that needs to happen that night, but I don't think that we have to go straight there. Right. So give me a few other ways you could have navigated that where more nurture wasn't going to get her to completely do them. Tell me about having to lower that expectation. What would that have looked like? [00:20:50] Speaker B: So what you're saying is completely fair. And I bet our listeners are really appreciating that you're pulling this out, because I think something that I can take for granted is, y', all, I've been working at this style of parenting, and my kids have been working at this style of parenting with me. [00:21:07] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:08] Speaker B: Because we're both learning how to do this connected relationship thing. I mean, we've been working on it for coming up on 15 years. So that's why that secret sauce can sometimes just work for us. In those early years, it was almost never working for us. I was almost always having to go to where Tana's leading me now. So it's like, what if every ask ends up in a meltdown or escalated to some kind of situation? [00:21:40] Speaker A: There's no way you can make me do the dishes, run off, slam the door, up the stairs, in the shower. The dishes are absolutely not being touched and child is nowhere in sight. Right. [00:21:52] Speaker B: That's where this topic, connection over compliance, really, the rubber meets the road there. Because what matters most to you, it is what mattered most to me in the small moment. But now that this has escalated into a bigger feeling moment, I'm going to really have to put what I believe into practice, which is the dishes are not the top priority here. My kid and my relationship and my. My connection with that kid is the most important tonight. So, yeah, you say a couple of. [00:22:29] Speaker A: What ifs, what would we do? Like, I'm going to tell you what's coming up for me and then tell me, because you and I are so. We are wired differently. And I think that's important for us to remember even our approach to that moment. Yeah. Which again is why I love what we talk about. Because there's not just one way to do it. It's a. It's a philosophy and a value system that can be applied to different personalities, Kids, needs moments, capacity, et cetera. So I'm thinking kid has slammed the door. You know, I'm going to assume in my scenario that that is not always what happens. That's what happens sometimes. [00:23:04] Speaker B: Sure. [00:23:04] Speaker A: Okay. So I'm going to follow kid upstairs and do a little bit of a. Whoa. I can see that. That was a big ask. That seems like really a big ask for you tonight. I'm thinking there's something else going on here. Can we talk about what else is going on again? We're talking about a kiddo in the tweens and teens, you know, Are you stressed? I might give some ideas. Are you stressed? Are you overwhelmed? Did that take you by surprise? Are you mad? Are you feel misunderstood? You know, slowly, in a way they can receive it. But I'm going to give some jumping off spots for us to figure out why, quote, unquote, doing the dishes has caused such a massive eruption. And going for that connection, try to get them talking, maybe. I'm like, hey, it seems like the dishes are too much right now. I'm gonna go start the shower for you and I'll turn some music on in there. Why don't you go get your shower done, take a little bit of a deep breath. I'll be here. And let's circle back to it when you're done. Like I'm gonna try to pull out some regulation strategies. Whether talking might regulate or a shower might regul. Hey, it looks like we're getting kind of stuck here on this task. Let's go for a walk or let's walk the dog. Just something to regulate. But I'm not gonna let the dishes go. The dishes are probably gonna get done before bed. But it might take us like 45 minutes to an hour now to get back to them. But I'm gonna be figuring out what is needed to get the kiddo regulated, figure out what's really going on, hope to get them talking. Probably in my own lived experience it would be something like, I'm just so tired, mom, I'm so exhausted. Or I really am feeling overwhelmed or I forgot to tell you I have a test, I just remembered. Or I mean there's a lot of different things. I'm mad because that fortnight new season drops in 10 minutes and I didn't have time to do the dishes. I mean There are 101 million things. [00:25:00] Speaker B: And don't forget that sibling relationship. Oh, you always give preference. You always, you know there's going to be, that's a possibility too, that there's some kind of sibling dynamic that they, that escalates. [00:25:12] Speaker A: Does it feel fair? I mean there's a so many other things. But if we are running after connection, then we get to see what's under there and we get to empathize and reflect back and co regulate and be supportive. What's on your mind when you think about that example? [00:25:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I would probably do similarly. I love how you're pointing out that what's going on in our mind and how it's going down is gonna maybe look different. Maybe even what is gonna look different. What I know about myself, Tana, you know this about me too, but I just, I still can get hot tempered. So I know about myself that if those dishes aren't gonna get done right then by that girl that I was directing to do it, I'm gonna have to deal with my own feelings for even just like one minute. I'm gonna, it's going, I'm gonna get mad for a second. So often what happens when that's happening? You know, said girl's gone upstairs and slammed the door. I still have a co parent in the house with me and usually if one of us is regulating our own emotions about something and we were the last person to touch it, we now like, even without words, know that tag, you're it. The other parent's gonna Go deescalate. So probably I would imagine Nick would go upstairs and work on the same things that you're talking about. Maybe a talk, maybe just what gets that kid back on the tracks for regulating their own selves. And that gives me a second to like let, let, let it go, Let the dishes go. And when I say let it go. [00:26:52] Speaker A: It'S like, why is this bothering you so much? [00:26:54] Speaker B: Exactly. We may come back to it later. The dishes, in fact, we probably the dishes are going to have to be dealt with. But I just know in myself I have to let it go. Even in my mindset to know these might not even get done tonight, even though they probably will. It's like this. I have to name it for myself. This is not the most important. I would also say sometimes if I am regulated and that has escalated and, and I have the more connected relationship with that kid that day, then I might be the one to go up and do that too. But we do a lot of tag teaming at our house and it's just man on man. We've got two kids and two parents usually around our house most of the time. So we're able to do it that way. [00:27:45] Speaker A: I hear you saying that there's a lot of intuiting, question asking, thinking beyond the moment. We are attempting not perfectly, my goodness, not perfectly, to respond versus react. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:04] Speaker A: We are probably feeling sometimes in those moments, I mean, I appreciate this conversation because frankly, you went straight there when I asked, I asked a prompting question. You're like, well, I would have done this and this and this differently. [00:28:17] Speaker B: Uh huh. Yes. [00:28:18] Speaker A: So we're all dealing with a. Oh. [00:28:20] Speaker B: Man, why'd I do that? Exactly. [00:28:23] Speaker A: Right, right. And thinking that if we had done it differently, it would have gone differently. And we all know that's not necessarily true. You can quote, unquote, do it all right. You can try your hardest to be a hyper vigilant parent. That sets the stage for every interaction to go smoothly. And it still is going to fall apart on us because we're human beings and there is no magic script here. [00:28:47] Speaker B: Can we pause there on that for a second? Because I think sometimes as parents we have magical thinking that if we did do it all the right way, that it wouldn't have. The wheels would have stayed on the bus. [00:29:00] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. [00:29:00] Speaker B: It wouldn't have gotten off track. And Tana is right. You can do all the right things, all the right ways. And dysregulation is not. It just happens. We just like. [00:29:14] Speaker A: Yes. [00:29:15] Speaker B: And you know why? Because our development. Right. Like our Kids are growing. They have their own mindset and their own feelings and their own egocentrism. And it's just part of. It's part of it. It's part of growing up. It's part of parenting. [00:29:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:30] Speaker B: So, yeah. Anyways, I just wanted to mark that because I think I have spent and sometimes I still slip into this. This mindset of like, gosh, I'm just failing. If I could do this better, then this wouldn't have happened. I could have told that kid two hours ago that it was her night to do the dishes. And by the time it was time, she could express her disappointment about that. [00:29:51] Speaker A: Okay, now I'm gonna push us really hard because let's do it. Let's talk about this. What if it had gone fine versus the big explosion with the slammed door? Let's play a game because this is my kind of, my next idea of what does a compliant child look like versus over a connected child because. Or what's happening there? Let's. Again, we're going to pick this apart. If you had said, whose turn is it to do the dishes? They had, you know, there'd been a little bit of somebody figured it out. She went and did the dishes. Well, what if she's actually having a really, really hard night and she had no emotional reaction. She was completely compliant. She begrudgingly did it. She got through the dishes. Then she went upstairs and took her shower, took care of her schoolwork and went to bed. That would feel really good to us, wouldn't it? We'd be like, sweet score, calm night. We did it. Pat ourselves on the back, well done. Parenting, spouse, partner, whatever. Versus it went a little south. Kids stormed upstairs, things got a little bit hot, there was a meltdown, we had to go do some repair. We had to pursue connection. But we learned some things. There is a struggle going on at the lunch table. And so and so said such and such. And that hurt my feelings. And I'm feeling really overwhelmed or I don't think this teacher likes me or whatever could be coming out that night. So it was sticky and hard in the kitchen, but the connection upstairs is quite beautiful. And so it's. [00:31:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, what drives our kids? Compliance. Let's talk about that. Because the compliance could have been driven by. I feel at all costs that I must please other people. I must please my parents. What kind of adult does that create? That creates a pretty stressed out, people pleasing adult that I think we could all agree is not emotionally healthy. What if that kid is driven by fear of the consequence of what will happen if they say no or push against it because we're gonna yell or it's gonna create drama or they're gonna get grounded from something, and there will be some kind of consequence slapped down harshly like that. What kind of adult does that create? That creates somebody that's only doing something when they're told to. [00:32:26] Speaker A: Right, right, right. [00:32:29] Speaker B: So I think this, even if it's messy, this, like, working together to stay connected, that is actually driving the kind of compliance that actually is. Is happening from a happy heart, y'. [00:32:44] Speaker A: All. [00:32:44] Speaker B: Like, mirror. Maybe not even a happy heart, but a connected heart. Like somebody that's doing the right thing for the right reason. And it makes me think about sometimes compliance, for me, means doing it the fastest way. Like, if I were, like, just on the surface to be like, I just want my kids to do what I say because it's the fastest way, and I just want it done. Like, if I'm trying to connect to that kiddo, that actually is the fastest way. [00:33:16] Speaker A: Yes. [00:33:17] Speaker B: Right. [00:33:18] Speaker A: I think about this idea of, like, the myth that we're dancing around is that connection first doesn't mean no limits, no boundaries, no structure. It means that the limit and structure doesn't lead nurture and relationships lead so that that limit or boundary or structure can land. Right. So again, we tested the waters by just lobbing out. Whose turn is it? It got a little sticky. Y' all did some negotiating. You used playful engagement. You kind of caught it low. That was all that kid needed. They probably felt seen and safe and celebrated, and it got playful. And there was. I mean, I can imagine what your house would feel like in that moment. So it wasn't that you missed connection because it didn't get elevated. You built connection because you offered play and it worked. But if it did get escalated and you had to keep pushing towards that nurture and that relationship and let that continue, continue to lead. Because it started leading immediately when you said, alexa's waiting for you in the kitchen. Right. Relationship and nurture were in the front there. But you have to keep sometimes elevating, elevating, elevating, elevating, elevating that nurture so that you can connect and get back to that task at hand, that thing that needs to get done, et cetera. [00:34:51] Speaker B: We've joked about how I'm high structure on this podcast, so y' all know I'm not going to abandon the structure. It is a large part of who I am. I'm often having to remind myself to nurture. I Love what you're saying. Tana, too, because there was a lot of nurture in the background. The reason the other kid could go up quickly and take a shower instead of arguing about that is because we had just put a phone holder in the shower and agreed that the most fun way to take a shower was to watch an episode of television that they loved. Right. Like, we had already problem solved that the week before. So there's nurture even in that decision. Like, there's, like, as the kid is doing the dishes in the kitchen and singing at the top of her lungs, there's me coming in, putting my hand on her back and singing a bar of the song with her and being like, hey, thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it. Which is an opportunity. That's an opportunity for the kid to be like, I really didn't like that you did that. You know, it was a little open window. If she needed to release something, she didn't. So it was a moment of like, hey, we're together. You know, mom sang my song. [00:36:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I think there's this idea of, like, it's not over till it's over, but when it's over, it's over. Yeah. And I think when we think about just the word compliance, it would be real easy for us as parents if it was over real fast. And the lesson our kids were learning in that moment was just do what an adult asks without question. And that sounds really good. And of course, we want our kids to be able to do that when they're adults. But to your point about what is compliance really and what kind of adults do we want to be nurturing and raising? We want to be nurturing and raising flexible adults who can do what's needed when it's time to do it. But emotionally resilient adults that can advocate for themselves. [00:36:57] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:36:58] Speaker A: Whenever it's not healthy compliance. Like, we don't want extreme people pleasers, and we don't want horribly resistant adults that are unwilling to ever compromise and be flexible. So we have to practice these ways of engagement. There's so much being learned upstairs. There's so much that they're internalizing. Hey, I had a really hard moment. I got mad. I yelled, I stomped. I did whatever I did. I shut down, I sulked off, whatever. Somebody came after me. They dug a little deeper. They asked me to think a little harder. I had to ask myself some questions. Like, I think about a couple. You know, we're parents to six kiddos. Not every one of our kids is a slammer. Is A door slammer and stomper. Some of them are sulkers and they get quiet and they comply, but their body posture is gonna tell me they're not okay. I have been known to run after them just as hard. [00:37:56] Speaker B: Yes. As we should. As we should. It's easier to let them go to their room and cry about it by themselves and tidy it up themselves emotionally. But that is not it. [00:38:08] Speaker A: It's. [00:38:08] Speaker B: To your point from earlier. That is not leading with connection. That's leading with compliance. [00:38:14] Speaker A: So some of my kids actually wouldn't be in their room crying, Jesse. They would be in the kitchen doing the dishes. [00:38:19] Speaker B: Right, right. But they would be doing it having done the dishes. Exactly. Having done the dishes. And then they quietly go. I'm thinking they would quietly go upstairs and they would have a little cry about it. [00:38:31] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. Or be in the kitchen. Solenoid. Yes. [00:38:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:35] Speaker A: I might go intercept the dishes. Yeah. Get face. Get eyes. Get a hug. Hey, Bab, I can tell you're struggling a little bit. I'm guessing this is kind of hard for you. Like, stop that compliance to get connection. You see what I'm saying? [00:38:50] Speaker B: Yes. [00:38:51] Speaker A: Because what's important isn't the dishes. It's my kiddo feeling seen and celebrated and connected to me. So for our babies that are not required, requiring us to co regulate with them, maybe my encouragement there would be interrupt compliance sometime to prioritize connection. [00:39:10] Speaker B: And let's mark this though, because what Tana's saying is making sure that kid is seen, not making sure that kid is happy. [00:39:21] Speaker A: Those are very different things. [00:39:23] Speaker B: Right. It's okay for our kids to have a hard time. It's okay for our kids to feel sad or mad or disappointed. And Tana going and interrupting the compliance for the connection means not making sure that they're not sad anymore. It's making sure that they feel seen and known in their sadness and that they belong still with her and in that family. Yeah. [00:39:51] Speaker A: Hey, I can tell you're feeling frustrated or hurt or disappointed. It's time for dishes. And like, thanks for sharing that with me. What can I do to support you? Like it. It's a posture of supporting. [00:40:01] Speaker B: I just say that as a recovering, dismissive, attached person because I think my default would think connecting makes them happy again. And I have no control over that. And I don't want to dismiss those feelings. [00:40:16] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. That's right. But don't leave them alone in it because they're being compliant. [00:40:21] Speaker B: Exactly. Which is also dismissive. [00:40:24] Speaker A: In fact, it's very dismissive. To your point, the mesh thing is to. What's the word I'm looking for? To take on that feeling? [00:40:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:35] Speaker A: Or save them from the dishes because they're sad. Like, no. At the end of all of this, the dishes have to get done. And that's a metaphor. We're using that as a massive metaphorical example of any number of things that we could be applying to this sort of concept. So think kind of. What are some of your closing thoughts about that, Jesse, when you think about this idea of compliance versus connection, or connection prioritized over compliance, what else is coming up for you? What are some of your closing thoughts? [00:41:11] Speaker B: I think two things. The first is I just appreciate Dr. Gordon Neufeld so much in the way that he's led the way with this line of thinking. But just connection drives compliance, and you can have compliance without connection. But if you have connection, it's going to lead to compliance. And so you really get two birds with one stone there. And it is the fastest way. So that's the first kind of closing thought I have, is it's. It is both. Both are important. But guess what? If you go about seeking one first, it's the faster way. It may not feel faster, but it is, and it's the better way for sure. The second thought I have is it's a long game, y'. All. The dishes tonight are less important than the dishes for life. You know, like, again using the metaphor, it's a long game. And so I'm thinking not just about that kid's connection to me in this moment. And tonight I'm thinking about building responsibility and ownership, scaffolding those things within my family. I'm thinking about scaffolding the type of relationship that the kid can express disappointment without escalating to going up and slamming the door like it. There are a lot of things being scaffolded long term, and so it's a long game. Those would be my two closing ideas. [00:42:56] Speaker A: What's coming up in me as we're thinking about this is connection isn't the easiest or soft or most passive thing. [00:43:12] Speaker B: Amen. [00:43:13] Speaker A: It's actually, to your point, that strategic investment in the long term. And one thing I might want to add on for those listening, when we are talking about connection, we're talking about the interactions that happen when we use this word, connection. Because you can have a kiddo that is securely attached to you and still has difficulty regulating their emotions. You can have a kiddo that is securely attached to you and still struggling with mental health struggles or is Neurospicy or has learning disabilities that is going to have behavior that has not got anything to do with your attachment style or cycle or relationship with. With each other. [00:44:04] Speaker B: Yes, for sure. [00:44:05] Speaker A: But so I want to say that like connection, we're using that word here, with what interaction patterns do you have with your kiddo? No matter your kiddos behavior and interaction patterns. Right. Because attachment doesn't like cure everything. It's just a pathway to felt safety. It's a pathway for support. It's a pathway for seeking comfort. It's a pathway for communication and felt safety and growth. But I don't want, I don't want us to think that if you've got a kiddo that is still struggling with what seems like they should be easy to do tasks, that the issue is they're not connected to you because they could very well be connected to you and just still be struggling. But your connection is what leads to supporting them and being able to do the thing at hand or grow over time and their ability to be more resilient with the thing at hand. Does that make sense, Jessi? [00:45:22] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think it ties in a lot with our previous episode. That rupture happens. I mean, in human relationships. There's conflict in human development, like kids. That's part of growing is those tension points of getting dysregulated or not, you know, being disappointed, having those tears of futility, you know, it just happens. It's part of growing up. It's part of being human. Mental health struggles and neurospiciness, that's part of like, it's part of being human. And it's part of having a diagnosis. It's part of, you know, a lot of that is resetting our expectations. But I do love that you reset that idea of like, attachment is important. Ruptures are going to happen anyways. We just. [00:46:19] Speaker A: And your attachment relationship is the pathway at which they seek comfort from you or receive the comfort to deal with whatever they're going to keep on dealing with. [00:46:29] Speaker B: Right. [00:46:30] Speaker A: And so I don't. [00:46:31] Speaker B: Why, why do we have parents? Why is this set up this way anyways? Like, if, if, if kids could raise themselves, they would. They need it. [00:46:42] Speaker A: Right. [00:46:42] Speaker B: But like, what do they need us for? They don't need us to necessarily tell them to do the dishes. They need us to support them as they grow to learn how to do. [00:46:52] Speaker A: Those tasks and to be supported when they're going to struggle doing the dishes. [00:46:58] Speaker B: Exactly. Again and again and again. [00:47:01] Speaker A: I mean, the reason I bring that up is I Have a dear friend. And we were just talking through this, and she was experiencing some struggle and disappointment and questioning her attachment relationship with her kiddo. And I'm like, that is strong. I see your interaction. I see them coming to you for comfort. And there's a reciprocity. Like, there's all those good hallmarks of a thriving attachment. This baby has something going on that is causing them to dysregulate more frequently than maybe a neurotypical kid. And your attachment is the buffer. It's the safe haven. It's the safe zone. But your lack of connection isn't the problem. Does that make sense, Jesse? It does. [00:47:46] Speaker B: The behavior is some communication to the safe adults. [00:47:50] Speaker A: Right, Right. So don't think that that's the issue. So when we think of, again, we think about connection and compliance. There could be a lot of reasons why the kiddos are struggling to comply with you or the surroundings or the circumstances or the adults. And attachment may not be the reason, but connection and relationship are the pathway for growth and skill development and their ability to. To be okay while they're struggling anyway. So I appreciate y' all for listening. Thank you for this episode. Jesse, we're gonna have to figure out maybe some other example to bring into the next one because you're, you know, washing the dishes was perfect. So maybe that's gonna be forever a metaphor. [00:48:36] Speaker B: You know, maybe we'll have another problem tomorrow that we should put in. [00:48:40] Speaker A: Maybe, maybe. Maybe it'll be my turn. I'll try to have. I'll try to have one problem. [00:48:44] Speaker B: I doubt it was our only problem for the year. So, you know. [00:48:47] Speaker A: Right. [00:48:48] Speaker B: We'll just see. [00:48:48] Speaker A: You're up. It's my turn. It's my turn. Well, thank for joining us. I appreciate it. [00:48:57] Speaker B: We hope you enjoyed the episode. If you're interested in learning more, head to empoweredtoconnect.org for our library of resources. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at etc, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empowered to Connect podcast. Podcast. In the meantime, let's hold on to hope together.