[E219] Replay What School Psychologists Want You to Know

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Empowered to Connect podcast where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families and our communities. If you were with us last week, you know that we were thinking about school. School is on the brain here and our kids are going back or they've been back for a couple of weeks. So we want to throw it back one more time to an episode with some of our favorite school psychologists. Today we welcome Dr. Teresa and Dr. Rachel onto the podcast to talk about what school psychologists wish that you, the parent, knew. When we think about our kids at school, they spend so much time out of our eyesight and in someone else's care. So really coordinating with the experts at school, the psychologists, the counselors, the support staff can help us set our kids and ourselves up for so much success. This episode was so fun when it aired just a couple years ago and we're excited to throw it back today. So let us know in the comments what you'd like to hear about next. [00:01:05] Speaker B: Well, as JD Said in the open, we are super excited today to talk with two of our favorite school psychologists, Dr. Teresa Davis and Dr. Rachel Peterman, both who work in our Empower to Connect family here in Memphis, Tennessee. And so I, we've both, we've had you both on the podcast before, so you're not new, but I wonder if you could just tell the people what is your experience when it comes to schools and school psychology. [00:01:29] Speaker C: Okay, I'll go first. So I was a school psychologist here for Memphis Shelby county schools last year. And then before that I worked in Florida with a certain, well, with a few school districts in the northeast corner. [00:01:48] Speaker D: Okay, my turn. I my experience in the schools. I have been doing a variety of things in the schools over the years. I was a school psychologist for the achievement school districts. I've done some work with West Memphis, all in our local Shelby County Memphis region. So I've done some of that. And then I've also worked with a couple different programs locally that provide services in the schools, but not functioning as a school psychologist in that role. So supporting and consulting with schools. [00:02:25] Speaker B: Through those other programs, and you guys know me from listening. I have spent about six years as a school social worker here in Memphis. And so while a lot of our experience is here in the state of Tennessee, we got a lot of kind of similar questions. We were talking before we started recording about some questions that parents have asked us over the years. And there's just a lot of acronyms, there's a lot of confusion. There's a lot of, like, really specific academic, educational terms when it comes to the kinds of support that a school can and is supposed to provide to kids. And so we just kind of wanted to chat today about some of those different things and answer some of the questions that we felt like we got a lot back when we were working directly in schools with parents. The first, you know, the first kind of, like, thing to break the ice is just like, what is an IEP? What is a 504? I mean, I know you guys have had the experience of you're helping a parent, kiddo is having a hard time, and sometimes I think we're hardwired to be like, give them an iep, maybe without even really knowing all that that means or what that entails. So would either of you kind of jump in and just kind of talk us through, what is an IEP? What is a 504? What are some of the basic laws kind of around that kind of stuff? [00:03:41] Speaker D: I can start. So a lot of times, I think it's a really good point, Becca, about the question of, like, let's just do an iep. Somebody struggling, you've got kiddos that aren't able to get their work done, or they're even having behavior problems in the classroom, whatever the situation is. And we immediately tend to jump to like, well, let's get an evaluation and get them services. And there's a lot more to that. And sometimes that is absolutely the right answer. But there's differences and kind of levels of support that kids can get in schools. So at this point, most schools have what's called response to intervention. So by default, schools are already assessing kids and figuring out what they need extra support in and getting them those intervention services. So all the kids are sort of getting this extra support as needed from the baseline. Then when kids are still struggling, we want to look at eligibility for additional support. So the two kind of the main big differences between an IEP and a 504 is that a 504 is something that you can. You can get if your child has a diagnosis. There are certain ones that qualify for a 504, and that diagnosis can come from outside the schools. ADHD is a common diagnosis, Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, where kids end up with a 504 plan to support them. And this 504 plan ends up providing accommodations. So things that you change within the classroom or the school environment that supports them without actually changing the content of what is being learned. An IEP is a little bit deeper and More individualized and more supportive. So an IEP or an individualized educational. [00:05:45] Speaker B: Program. [00:05:48] Speaker D: Ends up being part of the pro, like what comes out of a process of a referral, assessment, lots of data collection, and then if that child is determined to be eligible for an iep, then they create a plan to support that child in the classroom. And it can include accommodations and likely will include accommodations. I hope to support them. But also we'll look at individual goals to help meet their needs and can even change the content of what they're learning, potentially slowing it down or making some changes there in order to make sure that they are able to make progress without, you know, without having to be moved anywhere else. Yeah. [00:06:34] Speaker C: And I would just like to add. So, Becca, you brought up a good point about laws. So when we're talking about IEPs and 504s, there are certain acts or laws that really guide and back these two documents. So for an iep, this is guided by something we call idea, or Individuals with Disability Act. And this act requires public schools to provide special education services to students who are eligible. So that goes back to Rachel's point about, you know, for an iep, there is this long process where we have a referral, there's an assessment that takes place, and then everyone gathers as a team and decides, okay, based on all of the information that we've gathered, is this student eligible for an IEP? And when thinking about the eligibility categories, there are 13 of them. And these can include things like other health impaired. This is where ADHD can often fall. We have things like specific learning disability. And this is backed by our response to intervention data and also evaluations that take place. And then when we're Talking about our 504 plan, this is guided by the ADA, or American with Disabilities Act. So this document is, again, for students who have different disabilities. And here we are offering accommodations, like Rachel mentioned. And when I think about accommodations, we think about, like, how is this information taught? How is it made accessible? How is it assessed? So accommodations that are common are like small groups or extended time. But then for IEPs, we're talking about more of that instructional modifications. So we are looking at what is the student expected to master based on their current levels of education. [00:08:39] Speaker B: Thank you guys so much for that overview. I feel like it's. There's so much to take in just sitting here, hearing it and hearing the process. And so I think you've kind of addressed a couple of common misconceptions. I think one misconception is if my kid has any Diagnosis, any kind, for any reason, they should have an iep. And really, it's way more complicated than that because really, the team is going to have to look at how is the kid's academic performance being impacted by the disability? Does the disability fit in one of those 13 categories that you mentioned, Teresa? And then if they're eligible, what goes on the iep? So an IEP really is an individual document. Each child that has one has their own goals, has their levels of functioning and how they're doing. I think something that some parents know and some don't is that people like speech therapists and occupational therapists, even physical therapists can all be part of that IEP team. They can also provide services at the school. Can you guys think of any just, like, big picture misconceptions that you feel like have come up a lot? Maybe. Rachel, does anything pop to mind for you? First of common misconceptions when it just comes to what is an IEP? What is a 504? [00:09:59] Speaker D: Well, I love what you said about, oh, my kid has a diagnosis, so they need an iep. And so you alluded to this, you said this earlier. But what the schools are looking at when it comes to both IEPs and 504 plans is access to the education and accommodating for disabilities. So it is not about. One of the misconceptions, to be more specific, is that we want what's best for our kids, right? As parents, often as teachers, often as school psychologists and anybody trying to support kids, counselors. And we've been in all these roles here to say, okay, well, what they really need is a wiggle seat, and they need extra time on tests, and they need. And we can like list 10 or 15 things. And the reality is what we think would be ideal, we tend to defer to this. Oh, this is what they need. But what schools are required to provide is not an ideal package. What they're required to provide is fair services. So in essence, helping. I think it'd be helpful for parents to understand that it's not necessarily about giving them every, giving your kiddo everything that would make school more accessible and easier and all the things that accommodate for those disabilities, even if they have a disability, they're getting an iep. It's about making it more fair and kind of this baseline level of accessible education. If they cannot focus, if they cannot sit still, if they cannot sit in a regular chair, if whatever the situation is, that doesn't mean they get the coolest chair in the world. And that they get an hour extra on their test. It means that they get, you know, a different type of chair that has a wiggle seat, or they get to take a quick break and then come back, or they get 30 minutes on a test. So I think that is probably the biggest thing that is hard and hard for me as a school psychologist, as a parent. I always want what's best for kids. I always want them to get, you know, all the things that can make it better for them. But realistically, that is not what the law provides for and not what schools typically have capacity for. It's about making it fair and equitable. Not ideal to that. [00:12:29] Speaker B: If you add anything. [00:12:30] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:12:32] Speaker C: Immediately, two things popped to my mind about misconceptions. I think one of them would be a timeline. So I think my kid needs an iep. Like, why don't they have one already? You know, if only the process was that simple. There is, and we've alluded to this, there's a lot that goes into the process of an IEP and a 504. Especially like IEPs, we need to make sure, does the student qualify? Like, that's a big, you know, it's a one question. But there are a lot of different pieces that go into making that decision. So doing an assessment takes a while. Collecting data, writing reports, meeting with everyone to get our schedules together, to hold the meeting and discuss if we feel like a student qualifies. And to add on to that, parents, you are a part of the process because you all know your kids very well and in school we're only with them for a certain amount of hours. So your input is needed with the assessment process. It's needed with the decision making. So you all do play a very critical role in the team process. I think those two things are often a misconception. And, you know, I'm glad that we're talking about it and parents can know. It takes a while and we really need your feedback and your support in the process. [00:14:04] Speaker D: I want to echo that and the importance of parents input and feedback. I think some of the forms can be really intimidating. Like, especially for the about and for an iep, there's like really, really long forms that you might have to fill out and answer all these questions. And some of the questions are even you're like, what does this even mean? How am I supposed to answer that? But I would just encourage you to be honest, try not to overthink it because it's one question in a stream of other questions, you know, and the, the assessments are Designed with that in mind. We understand that there's a little bit of ambiguity in some of the questions and so trust the process a little bit. Give, give your feedback, talk about what you see at home, tell the teachers, know what works. I think one of the biggest pieces that parents can bring to the table and to the team is the things that you do that work well. Often we think about school and home. So separately, like, and especially if you're like, well, I don't have issues at home, why is this an issue at school? We get, I hear that a lot and vice versa. Like they're so difficult at home. How are they not in trouble at school? Are you sure they don't need help, can't get them to do their homework? Right. And a lot of that, there are a lot of factors that play into that. But when you know what works for your kid, when you know, for those of you who you know, follow, etc, have been doing this for a while, you're implementing all these processes and practices at home. You're connecting practices and all of those things. I want you to be curious and think about what are the things that you do at home that helps your kid be successful? Because those are the things you can translate to school if they do really well with a fidget. Like, that's such a simple little thing. It's pro. It's kind of overused in essence. But like, if you know that there's a particular thing that works, advocate for it, bring it up, talk to them about it, see if you can incorporate it. If they do fine, if they stand up to do their work, but you have them sit down and everything falls apart. Like, tell the school that, talk to the teachers. And even I know we're talking about IDPs and 504s and special education and all of that. But even if you set all of that aside, just recognizing that, like Teresa said, you spend a lot more time with your kids and you know them, you've known them longer than this teacher that has them this year for X amount of hours a day. So be confident that you know a lot about what they need and bring that information to the school and to the teachers. Even if you don't have a night be, even if you're not looking for that, if you notice something is, is not working well, I would really encourage you to talk to the teachers. I know some are more receptive than others to parent input. So you're going to run into challenges, I get that. But I would encourage you to, you know, your Part in essence is to take what you know and try to help them know what works so that you can maybe even not need an IEP or an evaluation or all of this. Sometimes you can avoid this whole process if you've got a teacher who's willing to, you know, make a few accommodations, which they're allowed to do. And that I think I would kind of just end with that, that to this question at least that like there's a lot of things teachers have the rights and ability to do in the classroom. And you'll probably find as your kids get older, depending on what grade they're in, or if you've got a teenager now, a younger kid, different teachers are going to handle things differently. And some of them do a fantastic job in and of itself making all those accommodations without a 504 or an IEP. So pay attention to what they're doing that works. Find out, ask them to try something and then if the next year that teacher isn't doing it, now you have something to give them and say, hey, this is something that we did last year. And if you're running into problems, then you can go further and get the evaluations and have sort of that legal and, and also ethical, but legal rights to like push that. Right? But it's okay to start with, hey, can we give them a little wiggle seat? Or can we give them three breaks throughout the day? Even without these other pieces, I love. [00:18:43] Speaker B: All of those things. And I think too, like when you're thinking about what does my child need? Like, like Rachel was saying, and I think Teresa mentioned it too, like, you are an advocate for your kiddo. Like, you know them, you know how to support them. And like we were talking about, sometimes their behavior is drastically different at home in school. That's normal. That's actually really common. If you're experiencing that, you are 100% not alone. Maybe one of the most common conversations I ever had with parents was they don't do that at home. And so school is a different environment. There's 28 other kids in there. There's lots of different expectations. They have to get off the, off the device and they've got to sit down and do math worksheets. Like there's just lots more demands that are put on kids in a school environment because they're being pushed to grow and so be open to listening to the teacher, collaborating with them and being kind of open minded as people are listening. I think two things come to my mind. One is all the things that we've been talking about are the requirements for a free and appropriate public education. And so these are laws and things that public schools are required to do. But many of you listening, your kid may attend private school, charter school, homeschool, things like that. Could either one of you speak to maybe as a parent with a kid who, who doesn't go to public school? What kind of rights do they have? As just parents, parents that have kids in a certain district, what kind of rights do they have? [00:20:13] Speaker C: Hey, Rachel, I'm going to start this, but I want you to finish it. So if your child does attend a private school, according to the law, public schools are required to do testing and, you know, find students if there is a disability, like that is a requirement. It might be a little. There might be a little back and forth there, but it is a requirement from the law. Rachel, come in. [00:20:54] Speaker D: It is complicated. And Teresa, I think you said, oh, it might be a little back and forth. There's a little bit of. It's a little more complicated because the child's not in the physical building and you don't have a school teacher that is seeing behavior and making the referral. So these referrals often will come from the parents, although the local district. So wherever you are zoned for. We may have said this a couple times. LEA or local education agency, all has to do with that district that you're zoned for and that school, whatever school your child is zoned for, for public education, that's the one that you want to go to to ask for support. So if you're concerned that your child does have learning difficulties, would need some additional educational support, would need some additional services like speech. We talked about that being a part of it, right? Speech and language services, an additional like tutoring and resource type services can also be part of that if they're not enrolled in that school. You can approach the school, contact the school and say, I have these concerns about my child. I would like to request an evaluation. The school, local school district is required to support that whole process. There is. Earlier, Teresa talked about the timeline. There are some legal limits on how long districts can take to do an evaluation, but that is from the very start of when it is officially begun. So when you sign a paper that says, yes, I've consented, and the school says, we're going to do this evaluation, that's when the timeline starts. And so I want to emphasize, you just contacting the school saying, hey, I want an evaluation for my kid is not when that timeline starts. It's not until you've signed a paper. One little tip I'll give you is that if you are having difficulty getting an evaluation, I would encourage you to send a certified letter to the school that documents the timeline and that creates that paper trail that you need. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but at times I've had it come to that. And so if you're not getting the support you need, you can send that certified letter to get that process started. And then just recognize if you're homeschooled or in a private school, there will be some other pieces. Like the part of the evaluation includes an observation. So they're going to be trying to figure out how to do that and they have to time that or they might have you come into the school for the observation. This is also true for kids that are not enrolled in school yet, like ages 3 through 5ish prior to kindergarten. Sometimes you. They are eligible for services and you end up going in for like a special evaluation period. So that's who you contact. Your local school, you can just ask them and start with that. But if you have issues, you can make it more formal and then they can give you the evaluation and determine eligibility and then provide the services, depending on what they are. If your child's at a private school, the private school is not obligated. They are. They do not necessarily, although some of them could, depending on their funding sources. But for the most part, private schools do not fall under the same category where they have to provide those services. So that's why there's a little bit of like, trickiness here. So you might find out that your kid's eligible for certain services and the private school says, I'm not going to do that, and they have the right to do that. And then you have to make decisions about what will they do, Will it still work? Will they make some accommodations, do I need to move my child to a different school? And those are really big, hard decisions to make. So I don't want to lessen that. But just to kind of say there's a lot of crossover there and kind of opens the door to some other. [00:25:15] Speaker B: Decisions, I just want to pause right there and go, man, what parent doesn't want their kid to have a great school experience? So if you're listening and you're like, God, I'm feeling a little anxious, that's so much like, there's so much that you're throwing at me. It is a lot. It's complex and there's really lots of variations state by state. But even Within a state, district by district, there's lots of variations on how people interpret the laws, how people abide by or don't abide by certain laws. And so I think a lot of times parents come to this topic of special education with a lot of like, maybe fear and a lot of like, I'm about to have to put my boxing gloves on and get ready to fight for my kid to get what they need. And in some cases they're not wrong. But I also just want to pause here for a second and say that I think I can say this. There is a crisis in the education system in the United States right now. Districts are short staffed, the wait lists are long, and education is been chronically underfunded and under resourced. And so I would encourage parents, as you come into this, you may have to put on your boxing gloves. I'm not saying you won't, but I also would encourage you to remember that systems, we love to talk about how systems are broken. I do want you to remember that systems are people and people are humans with limits. And there's so much they can do within a day. And so I think coming alongside people in your district as much as possible, using advocates to help you if you need that kind of support, not being scared to ask for what you need and to like Rachel said, send certified letters and be, you know, not, not being scared of it, but also having just a little bit of splash of like understanding and compassion. I know both of you worked in the, in the school system. I did as well. And many times there's more requests than we can actually accommodate in a day. And so I do want to say, like many, many professionals are doing the best that they can with what they have. So give a little, little bit of grace and compassion while you also advocate for your kids needs. I think that's just fair to say. I wonder, Teresa, if you could tell parents, so if they're sitting here and they're like, man, okay, I've been paying attention to my kid at school and I'm, I'm getting a little worried and I'm wondering what I should do. What would be some like first steps? Who should they even reach out to? What kinds of like, maybe just what are some of the basic first kind of starting steps that they can take? [00:28:02] Speaker C: I think a good first step is to reach out to the teacher. And you can do that by email, write a little note, maybe request a meeting, like, hey, this is what I'm seeing at home. What are you seeing in the classroom? Do we have similar concerns. Are we not seeing the same thing? And just kind of get an idea from the teacher's perspective, because they also might have concerns. And then from there, you know, if you guys both seek concerns and even if you don't, possible next steps would be to reach out to the special education teacher, the school psychologist, and see if you could speak with them and just let your concerns be heard. Because again, you are a part of the team and you know your child really well. So having maybe multiple people you speak to at the school, like, hey, these are my concerns. What can we do next? [00:28:56] Speaker B: Rachel, would you add anything to that? [00:29:00] Speaker D: I would add, sure, of course. You know, I can talk. I'll say something. I would just add that I love that she. That you start with the teacher. I would also say just get involved in the school. I know many of us are busy. I'm a mom of three. I am constantly battling, like, work, life, balance. So I get that. Don't want to acknowledge that and know what I'm saying out loud to you is not always easy. But finding a way to be more involved and to see what's going on, it can be going to PTA meetings and hearing stuff. It can be joining your kid at lunch, which are small things, but just having that presence at the school if they've got an assembly or something that parents are allowed to attend. Just being there because the more that the teachers and school staff see you and know that you're there, you start building those relationships. And like everything, it comes back to relationships and, you know, building a relationship not only with the teacher, but with kind of the school itself. And the school staff helps you to know better, like how things are running. And to Becca's point earlier, like, there, I truly do believe that they're doing the best they can. And sometimes it's honestly not good enough for certain kids. Like, I want to acknowledge that. But they're doing the best they can. And it's not any one person's fault that something isn't going well. So recognizing that, let's get in there. Let's see what you can do. Is there something you can do to support and help be involved, and then you'll have a better idea, even just kind of what things look like and how the school functions and that, you know, as you consider what is the best next step for your kiddo, whether you qualify, don't qualify, the teachers, the school. You know, we said earlier about wanting the best for our kids. And so it's a lot if you don't really know what's happening at the school. It's hard to know if they're, you know, getting what's best for them. So I would just encourage all to be involved and support them in that way and that will help make accommodations and all of those other things will flow a lot smoother as well. [00:31:30] Speaker C: I think tackle onto that. As far as like educational concerns, a lot of the schools that I worked at also had like after school tutoring. So that could be an opportunity to use as well. [00:31:46] Speaker B: I love that, just finding out what's available and being proactive about it. I feel like a lot of parents that I walked alongside wanted to take a wait and see approach. Maybe they had some concerns at home, but they were like, I just want to see how it plays out first. Like, I don't know, I want to see how they do. And I totally get that perspective. You don't want someone to judge your kid or to like maybe label them or maybe you have your own preconceived notions about like what special, special education is. So I do want to encourage you if you're kind of in the boat of like, I don't even know if I want to ask about this because I just want my kid to have a quote unquote normal experience. I do want to encourage you that special education has come a long way. Many services are provided in the general education environment, meaning they're in a regular class with other students that are their same age. Many special education services are provided in that setting. And so there are times when students are put in a self cont in a classroom that has other students with disabilities and they're in a smaller setting, maybe with some extra support and some paraprofessionals and things like that. That does happen. But, but I don't want you to be scared to have the conversation. Like Teresa said, just call the teacher, be willing to just talk it out and hear what they're seeing and not, not being too scared to take, to take some of those first steps. I think truly and truly we all want the best for the kids, like parents, teachers, principals, school psychologists. Like we want kids to have a good experience. The reality is that for some kids that's going to be more challenging than others and they might need some different supports, some different things. Hopefully as you heard some of these topics, it sparked maybe some more questions than answers, but it just got me thinking and willing to like open up the conversation. I do have a, I do have a kind of a big picture question for both of you, which Is. Which is kind of simple. But what do you wish that parents knew heading into this school year? Just what do you wish that they knew? What's one thing? Or an encourage. What. What's one encouragement or something that you wish that they could take with them into this school year? [00:34:04] Speaker D: Why. Why'd you throw out some hard question like that? All these other questions? Yeah, it's almost philosophical encouragement. One thing. You've got this, you know, your kids and you. And this is just one other piece of their life, and you support them in all that they're doing. You wouldn't be listening to this podcast if you weren't concerned and somewhat attuned to your kids and their needs. So as you start the school year, just remember that you know your kids and you're learning them and you're going to learn it together. And all of these strategies and things that you. That you've learned about or that you utilize still apply even though they're at school. And you can help support them through it because they can do hard things and you can do hard things. Y' all are going to make it. [00:35:06] Speaker C: I would say, just be encouraged. With school starting, things can be hectic, and we're trying to get back on a schedule, and it's just. It can be hard. But you all have done this in the past and you can do it again. So just keep moving forward. Even if we feel like I don't know what's happening or I can't do this, you can and things will. The dust will eventually settle and we'll get into a rhythm. [00:35:39] Speaker B: See, both of you guys had great answers to the philosophical question. I knew you could handle it. I wish that parents knew that you're not alone. It may feel like you're alone wherever you are. Maybe in your community, you feel very alone, but you're not alone. There are other parents who are walking the same journey as you, who are trying to advocate for the kids to the best of their ability. And my encouragement to you would be, as much as possible, if you can build a positive relationship with the school, this process, no matter which way it ends, is going to be a little easier for you. Put your box and gloves on when you need them, but don't reach for those first. That would be my encouragement. Thank you both so much for being with us today. This is a huge conversation. We didn't want to get too much into the weeds and the details to be overwhelming, but just wanted to spark some of those big questions that we get from a lot of parents. So hopefully you learned something new, and hopefully you are walking away with more questions, more things to research and look into in your local community. Thank you Theresa and Rachel so much for being with us today. [00:36:53] Speaker D: Thank you. [00:36:59] Speaker A: We hope you enjoyed this episode. [00:37:01] Speaker B: If you did, the best way to. [00:37:02] Speaker A: Support us going forward is to subscribe. We'd love to hear from you, leave a review, drop us a comment we or email us to let us know what you hope to hear in future episodes. [00:37:12] Speaker B: Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits. [00:37:13] Speaker A: And engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. [00:37:18] Speaker B: On behalf of everyone at etc, thanks for listening and we'll see you next. [00:37:21] Speaker A: Time on the Empowered to Connect podcast. Until then, we're holding on to hope with you. [00:37:34] Speaker C: Sam.