[E215] Flight: Stress Responses 101

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Hey guys. [00:00:04] Speaker B: We hope your summer is off to a great start. We thought we would replay a few of our most popular episodes and in the spirit of the overviews we've been doing recently, we are going to rename this little mini series stress responses 101. You know, the summer and the transition into summer can be a really stressful time. There is a reason that they call it maysember or mayhem. And if you have experienced of these stress responses, there is no shame. These things are hardwired into our brains and into our kiddos brains. So as you begin to recognize some of these behaviors that you are hearing about in these episodes, maybe you might want to go Back to episode 205 with our stress and trauma 101 episode. That will kind of let you know a little bit about what is causing stress responses or even what is causing our lower brains to be a little more sensitive in the area of kind of setting off these stress responses. We hope that in seeing and bringing awareness to some of these behaviors that then you can seek to co regulate either when you're recognizing them within yourself or within your kiddo. So without further ado, here is stress responses 101. [00:01:31] Speaker C: Well, all right, we're back today and we are doing our second week in the stress response series. Today we've got one of our professionals from the Memphis Family Connection Center. It is Rachel Peterman, Dr. Rachel Peterman. She's here today with us. And so Rachel, thank you for being here. And also we've got Becca McKay, one of our ATC trainers who's here to just unpack the flight response. And so last week, if you missed the first episode in this series, definitely make sure to go back because we outlined what stress responses are in a pretty detailed fashion. We won't do that today. So if you want to go back and get that summary and kind of get the overview of what a stress response is, please do that. But today I would just say, you know, when we a good overview for us, just when we experience stress, trauma or danger. And that doesn't have to be real by the way it could be perceived. Our brains and bodies have an instinctive reaction that's called a stress response. And so the big three that you always hear about are fight, flight and freeze. And so we've got a fourth one that that has been added in over time. And so anyways, today we're going to talk about the second one in in our series and that's flight. And so guys, thank you. So before we get too far down the road, of practicalities. Can Becca, would you mind outlining for us just what, what is the flight stress response? [00:02:52] Speaker D: Absolutely. So like JD Said, the stress responses are these automatic the way that your body responds when you're stressed out. So the flight response kind of just what it sou is going to fly away from whatever the stressor is. And so this can look, as with any of the responses, like a million different ways. But if you're going to have a flight response, you're going to be avoiding conflict, danger, uncomfortable feelings, feeling scared, feeling upset, maybe feeling like someone's mad at you. And so the flight response, kind of a helpful framework to think about it is you might run away from the conflict or you might run towards something so you don't have to think about the conflict or the stressor. And so it can be a little tricky with flight, but it could look like someone who literally deflects, avoids, escapes, or these like perfectionists like myself, these perfectionist overachievers. We might be flying towards something like work or, you know, cleaning the house if we're stressed out because that's something that we feel like is achievable and whatever else is stressing us out feels not achievable. So that's kind of the basics of what flight is. [00:04:10] Speaker C: Great. Rachel, anything to add to that before we. [00:04:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I love how Becca was talking about cleaning the house because that is absolutely what I will end up doing or I'm trying to. I'm a flighter, so I'm always the one running away from that stressor. And what happens is I seem to find every other thing that needed to happen that doesn't really need to happen. But it's clearly now way more important than all the other things that are stressing me out that I don't wanna have to do. So that was a great example. [00:04:43] Speaker C: Becca, if you sense that all three of us are laughing way too hard, this it's because all three of us are flight. Like our stress response is flight. And so this is just an insanely personal episode for all three of us. You know, when we're trying to identify this either in ourselves. I mean, Becca, you mentioned earlier that you didn't realize until recently that your stress response was flight. And I think for a lot of us, which is, you know, it's a very flighty thing to want to not figure out what your response is. I was the same way. It wasn't until we were going through the etc Parent training course years ago and thinking about this with our kids that I really realized, I think this is me. So for those who are just trying to identify within themselves or trying to. Trying to figure this out for their kids, what does this look like practically? Like, how does this play itself out in human beings? [00:05:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I can take that. So one of the things that I see a lot, both in practice and then just with people in general, because I might be looking at it all the time, because we're so focused on this in life these days, is just sort of this idea of I'm out. Right. Like, it can look like truly running away. Right? So like a kid. I've had kids that actually run away from you when something is too hard to talk about. A lot of times you can hide or cover up, and it can look. It can even look kind of strange that way. I've seen before. Like, I had a girl that I used to work with that would actually pull all of her hair in front of her face and cover her face with her hair. So, you know, sometimes you see that and you think, oh, that's a little weird. But that's truly, like, literally covering up your face. Or like hoodies, putting your hoodie up or going to sleep are all different examples of what you might see when someone's trying to kind of get out in flight. [00:06:45] Speaker D: Another one that I'd like to add is humor. So if you think about, like, if you've got a kid who you're trying to have a serious conversation, you're trying to tell them something, and they're just, like, making the most random joke, it could be that that serious conversation feels uncomfortable to them, so they've got to defle. So that's one. Sometimes people just have a sense of humor. But if it seems to be coming out every time we talk about math homework, you might start to wonder, I wonder if there's some stress associated with the math homework. Because if we're deflecting with humor, and so that's one that can happen a lot. And it can be, maybe they're going to distract themselves or you. And sometimes it works, right? That's the thing about stress responses. If falling asleep means I don't have to do the thing that I don't want to do, or if telling a joke gets my mom off track and she forgets what she was saying, that's why. Why we continue to do them. Because sometimes they do work to get us out of the situation. [00:07:40] Speaker C: And if you're. I mean, for each of us, and if you're listening to this and you've ever had someone in your care. And I'm. I'm thinking of when I used to do after school programs, there was a particular kid who used to hysterically laugh in my face when I got serious about him shaping up and like, kind of, you know, getting his behavior sort of back into. Back into line. There might not be anything more frustrating on earth than that. And if you don't understand where that's coming from, it's real easy to then double and triple down. And before you realize it, you know, kids loaded down with triple consequences because of their stress response, which is only gonna complicate that response and possibly then, like, lead to a breaking point within that kid. And so it's so important for us to recognize these things because then we can, I feel like, care for ourselves and those that are in our care a lot more effectively. What? You know, when we try to think about this, we think about, like, what typically we have to look sort of behind the. The skin of it, so to speak. Like, what is driving this behavior? Like, is it. Is it always fear? Is it always something else? Is. I mean, what. When we look at the motivators of this, like, Becca, what is that, man? [00:08:59] Speaker D: I think it is fear and self protection. Those are kind of the two factors at play. There's probably. You could probably read many more, but I think about. And let me throw out one more example to illustrate it. So one that we mentioned on social media and you guys seem to really resonate with was lying. And so we think about lying as a stress response. It's motivated from this sense of like, man, I got to avoid getting in trouble, or, oh, this situation would just go a lot smoother if I just tell this little white light. We would just be able to keep it moving. I won't have to sit with this very long. And so for many of us, like you said about if someone's laughing at you, that's a big trigger for adults, and if someone is lying to you, that's a huge trigger for adults. It's such a big topic that I think we're actually. We've got a great guest coming on in a little while to talk more about it. So there will be a whole episode just on lying. But it is. Can be a flight stress response. And so when that happens, it's motivated by. I don't like conflict. I've been in it before. It didn't go well for me. I don't want that to happen again. So if I can just lie and keep it moving. And so I think flight is often Motivated by that kind of thing, by this, like keep it moving, keep it rolling. [00:10:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And if I could add to that too, when you mentioned self protection, I feel like that is so true. Like when we talk about the stressor and stress responses happening because of an actual threat, but that perceived threat is this protecting your sort of psychological well being and that just like feeling safe. And no matter what happens sometimes as the adult when you're looking at a kid saying well clearly they're fine or I'm not really mad at you. I can't tell you how many times I say that at home with my kids. I'm like, I'm not going to be mad. I'm not mad. I why are you hiding? I don't, you know, there's nothing wrong but they perceive that I'm going to be mad. So that's why you get that lying or whatever that response is. Hiding just to protect themselves. [00:11:06] Speaker C: Well, I mean this hits so painfully close to home. Just to give a personal example, I growing up was a big time liar. Like that was if I was, if I sensed that trouble was coming. And really for me it was my parents, you know, they moved to grounding. They realized grounding was a very effective form of punishment for me, of discipline for me. And so like there would be moments where I sensed a good grounding coming on and I knew there was a friend's birthday party or there was X, Y or Z thing coming up. And so really quickly in my head then I would get real slippery and figure out like what is it? What is a good alibi? Like what, what? How can I like weasel out of this particular trouble? Because my mind, well, like what I did was not worthy of not going to so and so's birthday party. And so like I'm just going to make sure that I still get to go because this would be dumb for me to get grat. So I start living in the future deciding what the outcome is going to be and that I have my own trial in my head. Like, well, it wasn't that bad. So I can lie about this and get out. All of that happens. I mean for those of you who are listening and that's not funny, it's like really infuriating to you. I can only, I can only just tell you that like in those moments it is. Becca mentioned it being impulsive. Like there is a feeling that wells up within you of okay, I can skirt the truth here and not get in trouble. And if I tether some part of the truth to it, it's not really lying anyway, so it's not a big deal. Now I'm not endorsing that as like that's good and right and true and we should all like embrace this with our kids. What I am saying is that a lot of that stemmed from this feeling of not being physically unsafe. I was never physically unsafe growing up. It was that like I didn't always feel free to tell the truth because if there was anything sketchy would happen, it was instant consequences and discipline instead of kind of conversations about how to avoid those things in the future or whatever. So you know, one thing that we've tried to do with our kids is to create this environment of over assuring and reassuring that like, you know, we, we just want to know what's going on and if you'll share it with us and like being extra patient in the drawing out of that. So just share it with us. Like we can talk through that. And then once everybody's eyes are open to it and once there's been a clear communication about where some limits are, then if that stuff gets crossed, then they, they're there. Everybody's full aware but we're not tricking anyone into, you know, having to like confess something and then popping them for it later. [00:13:38] Speaker A: That literally happened last night at my house. So you were talking about that as you were saying, you know, reassuring them and helping them. And I came home late last night, kids were already home and doing their thing and one had gotten in a little trouble at school and no big deal, talking in the hallway. Happens a lot, can relate and he did not want to be in trouble for it. And I didn't even know what had happened and other people didn't even know what was going on. But he was like running away, hiding. And I kind of walked into it and the first thing I said was, buddy, I'm not mad at you. Whatever's going on, it's okay, you are not in trouble. And so giving that, that reassurance I think is really important. And it does help him kind of step out and say, okay, I actually am hearing this. I am safe. It's not what I was thinking. It was that perceived threat then can be sort of realized as not a true threat. [00:14:35] Speaker C: And that just feels like the feeling of I'm going to be in trouble is so hard to overcome. So parents, when you are stepping into that, just know again from a recovering liar, just know that, that those first few times it is a massive terrifying hurdle to jump over, to walk right out with a confession of what you did, or to walk right out and be completely, vulnerably honest about a mistake you had. Because what is resonating in the back of your mind trying to get you not to do that is this fear that you're gonna share this once, but you'll be rejected in the future because this is terrible and you should never have done this in the first place. So go ahead and just lie about it, because when they find out, they are not gonna want you anymore. And that might sound overly deep for talking in the hall or whatever. I promise you, it's exactly how it felt for me growing up. And I still. I was sharing with them before we started recording. Like, even within our life now as a grown adult and father of four, I mean, that impulse to still not be forthright about stuff still lives within me. And over time, I have learned and been taught and kind of been counseled on how to suppress that and how to work around that. And I've seen that living in, you know, like, truth and honesty is a very, like, peaceful and way, way less tiring path to walk. But it took a long time to learn. So just give. Give plenty of grace, give plenty of chances and kind of patience with your kids as they're learning this as well. And I think that reassurance, again, all we're trying to get to is to be able to figure out the heart behind what's going on, to be able to address that more than we are trying to be, you know, running around playing cops and robbers with our K. [00:16:25] Speaker D: I feel I just. When you're saying that, I'm thinking about the feeling of feeling like it is okay for me to make a mistake or have conflict with someone, and we're still going to be okay at the end of the day. That's what I'm like reflecting on over here. I'm thinking, man, and I know parents spend so much time telling kids, you're not going to be in trouble, you're safe, you're okay. And I just am remembering, like, felt safety is more than just you telling that to your kids. It's them feeling it. And so I think don't get frustrated or discouraged. If you've said it a hundred times, just keep thinking about building felt safety in so many ways, with the way that your body is postured, with the way what you're saying to them, with how you're connecting with them outside the moment. But there's just so much more to it. And I just think about, as a flighter myself, the relationships where I don't fly are the ones where I feel like. I feel safe. I feel like this. I'm going to be okay. Like, our relationship can handle whatever the conflict is, but if it's a relationship where I'm not sure, man, I'm going to deflect with humor. And I also think family culture has something to do with it. In my family growing up, you don't talk about hard things. That started with my dear, sweet grandmother because she had a hard life, and so she would focus on the positives, and that was taken to an extreme level. So if you never talk about the hard things, then you run away from the hard things, which is what I've tended to do. So it's learning how to be in those uncomfortable moments. And I just. I just want parents to know, you know, I'm 30 and I'm still learning it. So give your kids time to learn those things and to. And to be able to internalize that. [00:18:12] Speaker A: I love that example. That was great. [00:18:14] Speaker C: Yeah. So, you know, and we're already kind of in this. We're already sort of talking about this now, but if you're trying to support somebody who deals with flight as a stress response. Sorry, if we are trying to support ourselves, those of us who deal with flight as a stress response, and if you're trying to understand what that feels like, how do we support ourselves? How do we work through that? Rachel, why don't you speak to that? [00:18:41] Speaker A: Sure. One of the things that I think is really important is, first of all, just knowing that about yourself. So taking some time to reflect on how you respond when things are hard. Are you a flighter? So once you can identify that, then figure out what it looks like for you. Kind of your go to things, is it, you know, hiding? Is it going to your room? Is it going, you know, on a drive? Do you just walk away? Are you using humor? What is it that you're doing? And then talk to the people that you are most likely to have that kind of response with. A spouse, best friends, co workers, and help them understand kind of where you're coming from so that they can also support you and be aware in that time. And then I think it's really important to sort of have a plan. I feel like all the time when I'm thinking about responding in stress and conflict, it's so much easier for me. But it's for most people to have a plan. But what are you going to do instead? Like, if running away isn't the best choice, or like the, you know, most productive Choice. And, you know, that's kind of your inclination. How can you stop? Take a deep breath, give yourself a moment to say, I'm going to just step out and I'm going to count to 10, and then I'm going to come back. So you're still allowing yourself that moment to get a break, walk away, kind of regroup and regulate, but then coming back to it and saying, okay, now I can handle this. I think that's really helpful. [00:20:16] Speaker C: Yeah, Becca, anything to speak to outside of that? [00:20:20] Speaker D: I just think yes to what Rachel said. And remember that it's physical. So, like, your heart might be beating really fast or something like that, or you might be sweating. And so just pay attention to that and yeah, communicate like, I need to take a walk, but I'm not going to let myself take a walk and then change the subject and then turn on the TV so that it. Talk about it. So it's that, like, you know. Yeah, it's. We talk a lot about nurture structure. So it's like, give yourself the nurture, but also the structure. Like, give yourself the boundary of. But I'm going to, you know, when I'm calm, when I'm not sweating, and when my heart's not racing, we are going to address whatever the thing is that's making me stressed out. [00:20:57] Speaker A: Oh, I love. Oh, there were two things. I got to say this, because this. There were two things you said that I thought are so important. And one is the boundary. Right? Like, one is allowing yourself to feel what you feel. It's okay. And that goes back to not talking about hard things or not wanting to have those hard feelings of being stressed out or being scared or being frustrated. It's okay. Those are normal feelings, and we are built to have those feelings. So let yourself feel it, but also give yourself an appropriate boundary and say, this is not all night. This is not forever. We're never going back. Okay, I'm gonna take my walk. And when I come back from that walk, I feel like those are really important points. [00:21:39] Speaker C: I'll add what I. What I. I mean, yes to everything that's been said so far. For me, what I've found to be. And this is not gonna be everybody's response, but for me in particular, once I share that with somebody, then my. The. The people pleaser in me that's scared of letting people do it, like, leverages that in a healthy way. Now, I don't share it with just random people, but with my wife in particular, I'll say, hey, I'm feeling Really overwhelmed about X, Y, or Z thing, or I'm really fearful that, you know, when we have this conversation that this is gonna turn on me in a really bad way or this kid's gonna be really upset when I go to address this particular thing or a hard conversation at work or whatever. And once I've shared it out loud, so often when these things come out of our mouths and through our ears, it's like it's a different message, right? Like, we get to hear it as it actually sounds. And you're like, well, that's crazy. And so I think there's a helpfulness to us hearing those thoughts. And if you deal with these things, to be able to hear it out loud and see somebody else's reaction is sometimes the most helpful thing for me in particular, because then I know I'm kind of on a timer, and I've told them I'm gonna come back and take care of this. And so it gives me the motivation to, like, take what I need and then get right in there and have that do whatever the hard thing is. So let's move on to kind of this from a parenting or from a relationship standpoint. If we're trying to support people who are like us, dealing with flight, what have we found from. Whether it's been spouses or parents or. And sometimes it's our kids even that help us to learn these things. But what are some of the ways in which we can best support our kids who are dealing with distress response? [00:23:25] Speaker A: I'll take that. I'll start with that one. One of the things that's so important is to, like I said for yourself, is respecting that feeling is also respecting your kid or your spouse in feeling it. I've seen this. It's like I can feel it. Like, I have these, you know, flashbacks of these feelings where I've been in a classroom before where a kid was really upset, they were not feeling comfortable for a number of reasons, had hidden under a hoodie, and they were disengaged. It was definitely a flight response. And the teacher was like, come on, you need to take your hoodie off. You need to engage and push, push, push. And. Which was just pushing them further away. Right. So respecting kind of where your kid or where your spouse is or. I mean, this goes across all relationships, but. Right. Recognizing that this is where they're at, it is physical, it's biological. And then we have to help them get out of it, particularly for our kids. And it's, you know, nice to help your spouse or anybody Else you might be around, you know, help co regulate. But recognizing that first and then supporting them by really getting on their level, helping them feel safe, whatever it takes to help them feel safe in that moment, I think is kind of the starting place. [00:24:51] Speaker D: I think a lot of when we were talking about how to support ourselves, a lot of what we were saying takes a lot of thinking about your thoughts. And kids don't have quite that much of a developed ability to do that yet. So I think I love what you said, Rachel, just about focusing on felt safety in that moment. Because we as grown adults can spend a lot of time thinking about where was that coming from and how could I respond differently in the moment. And for kids, it's just your brain is still developing. And so I think just remembering that as parents. And so the goal when you got a kiddo experiencing flight is to get them back to a calm place. You can't address whatever the issue is until they're calm. And so I think sometimes we get caught in power struggles with any of the stress responses. But with flight, what I think that looks like is we want to make them do the thing they're avoiding right now or we want to punish them. And so I think if we can back off, if we can give time and space when it's appropriate, when it's allowed, there are some things that we've got to do. And there's a timeline that's outside of us. That's true. So if we know that our kid tends to flight, we need to do a lot of preparing them for that moment before they're in the moment. And then if it's something that we can back off of. If math homework is making your kid tell jokes like, like crazy, can you pause for a second and let them go to their, like, humorous place, get back, calm down before we try to re engage with the math homework with intentional support. Hey, it seems like this isn't something that you want to do by yourself. I'm cooking dinner. When I'm done cooking dinner, how about if I sit next to you and we do it together? So offering support for whatever this. And I know I keep using math homework, which is like, that's not the only thing. I've mentioned it a bunch of times. But whatever the conflict or the stressor or the thing that they're trying to avoid is if we can give them support and allow them time and space, obviously, as appropriate with the lying one. I know we're doing a whole podcast about it, but we often want to make them Tell the truth. And I think sometimes it's enough to just go, I know you took your sister's toy and just keep it moving. And just like, instead of forcing them to say the words in that moment, sometimes I think that makes us more stressed and them more stressed. And if the goal is really long term for them to feel safe enough to not flee, not flight, that's what we gotta pay attention to. Yeah, those are some of my thoughts. [00:27:21] Speaker C: That's. I mean, it's awesome. And some of what I'm about to ask kind of crosses, you know, a whole bunch of different barriers, like whether it's fight, flight, freeze, fallen, any of those. But can. Can y' all just speak to kind of of the reminder that biologically, sometimes these moments, sometimes we need to address nutrition or, you know, the physical elements. Like, are you hot? Are you cold? Are you thirsty? Are you hungry? I mean, do you always want to kind of do another quick speak to that? [00:27:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's a valid point. I mean, a lot of times we hangry is like a real thing, right? I mean, we're hungry. Grab a Snickers, right? You know, sometimes our blood sugar's low, sometimes we're dehydrated. And often, like, Becca was talking about how kids don't recognize those thoughts as well. I mean, obviously thoughts, but they don't recognize a lot of their needs, right? They don't realize they're dehydrated. They don't realize that they haven't eaten for four hours and they're hungry, and you think, oh, well, you had a snack at school, right? Or you had lunch at school and you shouldn't be hungry yet. And you think about the time, but then you realize, oh, wait, you actually didn't eat your lunch today. What happened? Oh, you had. You spilled syrup on your pants and you had to go. You know, you spent half of lunch cleaning the syrup off your pants, so you didn't get to finish eating, and so now you're falling apart. And so recognizing that there could be other reasons, so meeting those needs, you know, nutrition absolutely is a big one. Other things, oh, they had cupcakes for someone's birthday today, and now they're on like a sugar rush or a sugar crash, and you're like, oh, that makes. Makes sense. So I feel like a lot of times those are some basic things. Also, you were saying something too, that reminded me about just meeting those sensory needs. Just recognizing that in that moment, the best way to really connect is not going to be through words. It's not going to be through reasoning. Because if you're in that stress response. I'm sure y' all talked about this on the other podcast, right? Like, going into how there's different parts of the brain that are activated at that time, so you want to try to connect with them where they're able to connect with you. So sometimes it's going to be some pressure, or sometimes it's going to be needing a big hug or needing to feel like they're safe and covered up and under something for a minute to then be able to come out of it. [00:29:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:29:47] Speaker A: So I think that's. Yeah, I think, too. [00:29:50] Speaker D: Moving your body is helpful for almost all of them, but because the flight response, you tend to want to be out of this situation. Going for a walk is going to be a really easy go to, let's go for a walk. Let's do a specific task that's in a different part of the house. Let's take the dog for a walk. Let's do whatever we can to honor that. Their body feels like, I got to move. And just, like, roll with that. It's hard. We say this probably every time, but as we give these ideas and things, it's really important to know your kid, because your kid might be the hoodie. And so maybe the way that you honor them is by giving them a blanket to put over their head. Like, maybe that's the way you go. I see you, and I can tell that you need to disconnect for a second. Hey, let's get this cool blanket. Can I sit with you? Like, is that okay if I'm right here? Or if you've got, like, the literal runaway down the street? You know, maybe it's. Let's go for a walk. Like, okay, let's go for a walk. Let's honor that need. Or if it's the humor kid, maybe you just roll with them. You be playful with them, you meet them where they are. So we say that every time, but I think it's so true because you can't put kids into a box like, oh, they are flight. Therefore, I will do X. Like, it's so much more nuanced than that. So I love all the different ideas and just getting to know your kid and what they need. Yeah, I would. And I. And I love just thinking about movement and hydration. Let's go get a snack. Let's go get a drink. Like, use movement and things that, you know, are going to help regulate that brain. [00:31:22] Speaker C: And over time, you know, sometimes you see the meltdown Happening. And you're like, all right, time for me to get a cup of ice water and whatever. And I'm just gonna bring that straight to. I'm not even gonna start the conversation. So I'm like, hey. And you know, our kids in particular will recognize language. So when I, when I'll do like a. Looks like you're thirsty. Sometimes it's like, I'm not thirsty. You're thirsty. Like, yes. So sometimes I'll just come and say like, hey, are you, you want something to drink? I just had this. That way like, it slips under the radar of like, stop trying to etc me, dad. Sorry for that voice. That was. Sorry. None of our kids talk like that. But you know, I do want to mention one thing. That was a huge paradigm shift for us in a helpful way. And I don't remember if this was Mo and Tana that shared this, but when we were taking the ATC course years ago, I can remember addressing flight and talking about, you might have a kid who is a literal, like wants to leave the house and get out. Here's a suggestion, you know, go with them. And I remember thinking like, these people are out of their minds. No way do you let a kid leave the house when they're trying to run away. Well, you know, lo and behold, you know, now in our house we've got, we've got some that occasionally like to just get out and change their environment in those moments. And so our kind of one liner that we will use all the time because of course they're going to tell you not to follow you, not to follow them, or you know, I don't want to be near you. Whatever, that's fine. I'm not going to allow you to go away by yourself. So I'll stay behind you, but I'm gonna walk with you. Cause I'm not leaving you alone in this place. Like, I'm not gonna leave you alone in this spot of anger or the spot of disappointment or whatever. So you're fine to go as long and far as you wanna go. Just know I'm not leaving you. I'm gonna stay behind. And when you're ready, we can talk, but there's no rush, so we can go as far as you want. There's, you know, sometimes that's best physically walking. There are other times where just, you know, we've got got a lot of people in our house. So sometimes going for a drive is a good bait kind of in that, that bait sounds so bad, but the, to be able to offer like Intervention. [00:33:28] Speaker D: It's a good intervention. [00:33:29] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. Thank you for the scientific, appropriate word behind that. Sometimes it's like it feels like you need to get out for a second. Why don't we drive around for a minute and I. We live next to a fairly busy road, and so I will use that opportunity to floor it. When we get on the open road and have all the windows down, so there's a rush of wind to the face. Sometimes it's a change of temperature, like, and there's a quick kind of sensory input that can almost sometimes function like smelling salts, you know, to sort of, like, get the brain going. Oh, oh, okay, we're in the car. What happened? You know, So I think that's just a practical suggestion for those of you who might have runners. I don't know if you want to. [00:34:06] Speaker A: Suggest anymore sort of a random. But it reminded me of. It is washing your face or even your hands, you know, splashing with cold water or warm water or. We mentioned having a drink of water. But you could also have something hot. Do you want some hot cocoa or hot tea or something that's warm, can also feel soothing. So kind of looking at that. But I think that is so important to, like, just a change, just that change of scenery kind of shake things up a little bit, get out of that. Because so often you're just stuck, right? They're just sort of stuck and can't in their head or physically get out of what that stressor is. So trying to just change it up if you can. Whether it's outside. Talk about walking and driving, but. But I mean, can you just go outside and, you know, run to the tree and back, or the end of the driveway and back, or if you have a swing set, you know, now is a good time to swing or go on the trampoline or something like that. Can even just be. Or. I've got an artist in my family. And so she says, I'm gonna go on the back porch and I'm gonna draw, you know, okay, go draw, you know, so that gives her that moment to do that. And so you're still getting away, but it's not, like, far away. And then the other thing you said was, you know, staying close, you want to keep them safe, right? So all of this, I mean, just across the board, as parents, it is absolutely our job to keep our kids safe. So physically, I mean, we're talking about felt safety, and we don't want to give up, give them felt safety and let them walk when they're Actually physically unsafe. Right, right, right. So we got to keep those lines and that balance. And I loved your example, jd, about kind of I'm. You can't go by yourself. Like, I'm not leaving you alone, but I'm gonna give you the space you need and walk behind you to watch and make sure you don't get run over by a car, because that's kind of important. You know, I want to take care of them. So finding those lines. [00:36:00] Speaker C: We've had one that wanted to leave on a bike one time so that we couldn't follow them. And this won't always be the case, but they're young enough now that I said, that's fine. I'll run with you. And so, you know, as I get older, that's not going to be possible for me. But, you know, I think what I've seen, too, on the back end is now that we've got several years of those episodes kind of behind us, like, there's not even a question. And so what we're also doing is building in them a foundation of they really love us, even when we're in our junk. Like, even when we're in the bad spots. Like. And I know as soon as I try to leave the house, Dad's gonna say, well, I have to go with you. And. But that they can roll their eyes about it now, but you can start to tell over time the comfort that exists in that. Like, they know they can get out and go walk for a minute. And so, you know what. What used to be this big fight in the beginning when it was sort of scary for us, like this. This kid or kids wanted to get out and run. Now, that's not even as much of a thing because they kind of know, well, if I go, they're just gonna follow me and be calm and be cool about it. And so maybe that's not the response I want. I'll figure out something else. So in all these moments, like. Like when we get to our stress response place in our brain, sometimes we want to say or do hurtful things to our caregivers just to try to get some distance. And as people who are flying, whether it's laughing, somebody's face, or just crazy, talking them to the point where they're so frustrated, they walk away sometimes. That's our goal. So if we can remember that and know that it does help us in those moments to kind of calm down. And I do. I don't know about y' all. I find with my kids, the. The. The more quickly Something escalates the cooler. It helps me to be because I can see, like, oh, this is. This is something scientific happening. Like, there is a brain exchange happening. And I can then know, like, if I'll stay calm, we're done faster, and I can kind of, like settle in. Like, the other night, it may or may not have been a basketball game I wanted to watch that was on my phone propped up behind a pillow as I waited for someone to calm down. And so, you know, just remember that you've got to. You've got to weather these storms. But it does get easier as you get consistent in how you respond to them. [00:38:08] Speaker A: You build those connections, you know, and then they learn. And whether they've had. When we talked about what drives it, right. These experiences, avoiding conflict. Sometimes it's just partly your personality and your wiring of wanting to be that. That's my wiring. I want to avoid conflict. I want people to like me. So there's just that natural inclination, or it could be your kiddos experience trauma or toxic stress, and they need to rewire some of those connections because what used to be is no longer true. So for them in that moment. So we're trying to teach them that you are there. So as you kind of move forward and rewire and strengthen those connections, they'll learn that, you know, yeah, you are coming either way. Dad's gonna follow me, and. And he's there for me whether or not I want him, whether I'm mean to him. He's always going to be there. And that means something, right? It really means something. And over time, that sort of settles, like you said, you kind of get into a groove of it. [00:39:14] Speaker D: Yeah, I think, too, about this conversation, man, I'm just thinking about the word scaffolding, and we probably don't have time to explain it, but basically, baby steps, steps breaking down something that you want them to do into baby steps is my, like, one sentence. So I'm thinking about that because I did spend six years working in schools, and we had kids who would run into the street, right? And so the first thing you have to do is you have to literally stop them from running into the street. And so it's like, okay, you're telling me to do all these other cool things, but I can't do that yet. But I think if we see the whole picture, okay, so I had to stop him from running into the street. I need to spend every minute that I'm with this kid outside of those stressful moments, laughing, connecting and building relationship and getting to know Them and, like, deepening our relationship. And what's going to happen over time is, like, they're going to start to run, then they're going to look back to see if I'm following them. Right. And so then it's going to walk into kind of what you're describing, jd. So I think, you know, if you are parenting a kid or supporting a kid who. Who's experienced some significant trauma, you might be like, those ideas sound cool, but right now, it's just literally dangerous. So I love that you said, Rachel, you do have to keep them literally safe. Or if you've got a toddler who's just running, you may have to, like, literally pick them up. Like, you might have to. But don't lose sight of. You can still do all these other strategies that we're describing. Outside the moment and inside the moment. Because over time, the kid might run only to the door. Then they might walk away, but just into the next room. Then they might, you know, they're gonna, like, take baby steps towards being able to face the stressor. Yeah, but we can't expect a kid who is running down the street to tomorrow be able to, like, sit there and calmly tell you what they're feeling and how they're like, that's just not how humans work. Like, we need lots of practice and time. I do. I want to throw out one thing that you can do when the kids are a little older with. And I did this with varying levels of success. You can try to teach the kid, this is your safe place to go. What I would say, when I was a baby social worker, I tried that, and the kids never. It never worked. Like, I was like, well, why did I teach them about the safe place? They just ran out the door anyway. So what I started to do was pay more attention to, like, okay, when they run, where are they running? And so, like, we had one guy, and he always ran to the same bench. And so it's like, why am I trying to make my office his safe place? Obviously, she wants to go to that bench. And so although my gut reaction as an adult is like, oh, my gosh, he could get hit by a car. The bench is actually not by the street. It's in a fenced area. I just need to go to him and meet him and where he feels safe. So I think, too, we want to jump a lot of times. And I do think it's good outside the moment to teach kids about what safe places are and how to be safe. And, yes, you can go on a Walk, But I'm going to come with you. Or, yes, you can leave the room, but not the house. Like, it's good to teach those things, but if you're feeling like, well, that's not working, start to just pay attention to where they're running to. And if possible, like, you're saying, jd, meet them right there, instead of, like, forcing them to go to what you've identified as a safe place. If that makes sense. [00:42:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:29] Speaker A: And I mean, that reminds me, too, that you can. When we talked about having a plan, right? You know, it's so important to have a plan. And if you know that that's their place, you can also start to empower them to ask for what they need. [00:42:42] Speaker C: Right? [00:42:42] Speaker A: If they need to go to the bench, then instead of it being a conflict where they run to the bench. And this is your baby steps, right? So you've had these baby steps. So after a while, they might be able to then be able to say, I need to go to my. My safe place. I need to go to the bench. And whether it's. There's different techniques you can use to give them that option in a school, maybe it's like a popsicle stick that says bench on it, and they can give you that little stick and tell the teacher, this is what I need right now. And you know, where they're going, you're keeping them safe. They're getting what they need, and nobody is scared for their safety because you know what's actually happening. Which is why we react that way, right? Like, that initial response that of, oh, you can't go there. I need you to go to my office and keep you safe. It's because you start to feel afraid that you can't keep the kids safe because you don't know what's happening. But when you know, like, if you meet them where they are, that can be helpful. [00:43:41] Speaker D: Yeah, I love that example of Popsicle sticks. And I'm thinking, too, like, as times change, right? Technology, if your kid has a phone, can they text you? Like, can you give them ways to communicate besides just talking? Because for some kids, like, writing you a note or sending you a text that just says, like, like, I need space or I'm overwhelmed or I need help. Or you can give, like, practice some phrases outside the moment, but giving them a way to tell you without having to, because maybe they have siblings and they don't want to say something in front of their siblings. Or maybe, you know, that's driving them from flight straight into fight, you know what I mean? Like maybe it's just like it's showing up in all these different kinds of ways. So I think giving them multiple ways to communicate with you. And I also keep coming back to offer connection, stay close, but also allow them to ask you for space, especially when they start to verbalize. And at first it's not going to sound pretty, it's going to be get the mess away from me. But if they can translate that with their baby steps into I need some space like you said, jd, it's, well, I can't let you walk down the street, ride down the street on your bike by yourself, but I can give you emotion. I don't have to keep talking to you. I can give you some time and space. So I think too just respecting as they begin to learn how to use their voice right, like respecting that need for hey, I'm telling you with my actions and my words and my body that I need a minute. Give me a minute. Right within safe limits. [00:45:09] Speaker C: And I think, you know, gosh, well, two, two thoughts as we sort of come for home here with that. When we learn to give space, when we become okay with kind of giving that and having that initial time, then circling back to repair is absolutely essential. Because if, if the message that's sent is I asked for space and man came back and they act like nothing ever happened, like that's just as bad as meeting them head on and, you know, dueling to the death with an argument or whatever. And so if you do come back to repair, because again, the what we talked about, the core motivator and like, what we need to do as adults is then to be able to find a way that we can regulate and then face the hard thing. Well, if we're just teaching our kids to regulate and then during that regulation period they get to sort of escape, then it ends up like compounding the difficulty for them one day to come back and regulate. So or come back and repair things. So we've got to then make sure we are absolutely tied to. And it's wildly inconvenient. It takes way too much time and patience. But circling back then to repair. And every time you start this process with kids, it is miserable. I'll just say it. It is miserable because they're not used to it. You're not used to it yet. So just remember, give yourself grace, but push through and make sure that you can come back with some patience. Use that time when they need some space for you to regulate yourself. Like I'm usually deep breathing down the street. Cause I would like to just fight this kid in the middle of the street if I could. Like when they're running away. So I will use that deep breathing as I'm kind of giving them a space to keep up. And then when they turn, then I'm sor. All right. Hey, do you wanna talk first? Do you want me to talk first? And then just gentle reminders, hey, we're not gonna run away from this. We are gonna talk through it. And that's how we solve problems. That's how we get back to being okay with each other. And you know, again, those first couple times, it's gonna take so much extra energy. But make sure you come back to repair because at the end of the day, we are teaching them how to face hard things in the same way we co regulate, you know, we co repair in the beginning too. And that, that, that grows into the ability to independently repair with other people as they grow older. [00:47:29] Speaker A: Yes, all of that, all the things. [00:47:34] Speaker C: And I was saying, Becky, I don't know if you want to speak to this. You know, one of the things we, we hear Mo and Tana Ottinger say constantly, and I feel like they are masters of this, and I am not. Yet there is don't take it personal. Don't make it personal. And do you want to speak to that? I mean, you in a school setting, I feel like you had to face a that so, so often. [00:47:52] Speaker D: It's so hard. It feels, you know, it feels so personal when a kid is responding to you. Right. A lot of times you're the adult that's giving the direction that making them want to run away or flight, whatever that looks like. And so if you can remember that, it's an automatic response. If you can remember that, it could be driven by fear, impulsivity, their brain. Like, if you can just keep yourself regulated, then you can choose how to respond. Just like you said. Jd, I love how you were explaining the balance of structure and nurture. Like you were explaining it so well. You have to hold the boundary. But you give so much support and co regulation and co support. And then I think too kids need to be reassured that our presence doesn't depend on their performance. And I think that's especially important to flight response folks, because so much of the flight is, I'm going to run away before you leave me. Like, so much of that is tied to fear of rejection. I think you said earlier, Rachel, and like abandonment. And so I just think don't take it personal. Know that they're probably taking it really personal. And so they're going to need you as the adult, to step into it and reassure them. Even if it was a terrible interaction like you said, jd, even if it was miserable for you, they need to know I still love you. We're still in this together. [00:49:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:49:15] Speaker D: I'm still gonna value you. I'm still gonna show up for you. And I don't want anybody on this podcast to hear us say about space and think that we should force our kids to take space. [00:49:27] Speaker C: Right. [00:49:27] Speaker D: We always, always want to offer connection, presence. We want to stick close. [00:49:32] Speaker C: Right. [00:49:32] Speaker D: We just want to respect, you know, a kid's need for. I just need a minute. I just need some space to come, you know, So I do want to be really clear about that. But they need to know, so it's not personal for us. Like, we still love you. Like, we still care about you. [00:49:47] Speaker C: Yeah. That's so good. [00:49:49] Speaker A: And I think, too, I like that you're sort of throwing out these just. Just to throw it out, you know, Remember, this is not exactly what we're saying, but it doesn't mean that something's hard. And therefore, kids can run away or escape or flight however they do. And therefore they don't have to do the thing. Right. You know, if they need to do the math homework to of kind, go back to your examples. If they need to talk about the hard thing that happened at school or the whatever. Giving them space doesn't mean completely letting it go and letting them escape dealing with it. It means giving them a minute to handle it on their own in internally. Right. Like giving them that space to. To think about it, to calm down so that next you can be there to help support them through it. But coming back, doing the repair, doing the work, and then moving forward. I know Mo and Tana also say it's not over till it's over, but when it's over, it's over. So moving forward, repair and then go play and have fun and move on with life and let it go, which can be hard. I mean, I know that some of these things are hard. I mean, personally know, have talked to people. I know. You know, it is hard when you go through something very stressful on you and you're having to be, you know, the grownup like, you know, we are to. Then let's just let it all go. But we want. We want to be able to do that and keep moving forward. [00:51:27] Speaker C: Yeah. Gosh, so many good thoughts. I think, guys, this a perfect stopping point for us there. Thank y' all both so much. Again for joining us today. And yeah, can't wait to talk more about this. We'll be back next week to talk about the freeze response, and so make sure you tune in with us then. [00:51:52] Speaker E: We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, the best way to support us going forward is to subscribe. We'd love to hear from you, leave a review, drop us a comment, or email us to let us know what you hope to hear in future episodes. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at etc, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empowered to Connect podcast. Until then, we're holding on to hope with you. [00:52:23] Speaker C: Sam.