[E174] Discipline: The 3 C's and 3 D's of Discipline with Dr. Matt Smith

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Empowered to Connect podcast, where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families, and our communities. I'm JD Wilson, and I am your host. And today on the show, we talk through a new series. We are starting to talk about discipline, which is traditionally in every cultivate connection parenting course we teach right out of the gate. Week one is, hey, how do I stop this behavior? So we are going to talk through what does a framework for discipline look like? How do we make sure that we are doing that while maintaining an attachment and a connection lens in place? And to do so, we brought one of our favorite guests, Matt Smith. Dr. Matt Smith from the Family Connection center here today to talk with us. Satan and I will talk with him. This is going to be a great episode for you to begin helping to think through. You might have friends who are just starting their parenting journey here, and they are going, hey, I get a maintained connection. I don't even know how to do that while also holding inappropriate behaviors in check or disciplining as a whole in our house. And so today might be a great episode for you to share with those folks. And so, without any further ado, here they are now, Matt Smith, Tana Ottinger, and myself talking about this one. All right, well, as I said in the introduction, we've got Dr. Matt Smith here and Tana with us, and I'm pointing as if you can see them on either side of my screen. Like I can. Yeah, they're here. And we are really excited to talk today about mean. I mentioned in the introduction, guys, like every parenting course we teach, this is one of the first questions, and I will just say it usually as a dad, not to overly stereotype, but it is, who will say, yeah, okay, we got to make them like us, and then how do I punish them? So the goal, obviously, behind that question is, we know intrinsically, as parents, there's got to be a teaching element and a correcting element when inappropriate behavior or action is expressed. None of us are arguing that that is a non negotiable. We do not want our kids growing up learning a wrong view of what's appropriate in the world as a human being, how to act outside of that. Once you go past that first step, man, the opinions and the strategies are all over the place. And so we wanted to talk today. So, tana, do you mind kind of laying out the framework for this, the way that we do when we introduce this idea, cultivate connection. [00:02:38] Speaker B: I think what feels, just on a personal note, really fun for me about this particular episode. Know, Mo and I and you and Laurel have been sort of working hand in hand and teaching parenting classes in Memphis for a long time. Can you tell me off the top of your head how long we've been doing this together, Dr. Smith? [00:02:59] Speaker C: Well, I know that we went through our facilitator training back in 2014, and so I think we taught a class probably early 2015, and then we've collaborated with you guys and other couple that went through the training. So, yeah, it's coming up on nine years, I think, that we've been. [00:03:25] Speaker B: And what. What feels particularly fun for me, know, the Smiths, older, like, y'all's children are in the same stage and season of life as our older Oddinger kids. So we have walked through seasons of life together for well over a decade. And I have personally always appreciated the perspective that you and Laurel have brought to the nuanced conversation that we're going to have today around discipline and how to really foster that connection and think about change over the long term. Like, I have deeply appreciated your insight and perspective. In fact, I didn't really think about this particular conversation we're having is one that you and Laurel have often taught when we've taught class. Like, this is the place, this is the seat that y'all sit in to really explore this content and conversation together. So, just on a personal note, it's fun to have this conversation with. So I think, what if we start by talking about discipline at sort of a high level, and the difference between maybe how we would view discipline traditionally and how we might think about discipline under this umbrella of connected parenting and attachment focused parenting. So how have we reframed discipline as we sort of think about it through that lens? [00:04:54] Speaker C: Yeah, I was just thinking about how I think most parents are aware that discipline and punishment are not the same thing. They know that there's more to discipline than punishment. But I think what I have felt as a dad for many years, and I continue to feel this way, is that. And I will say before I even say this, that this is in error. Okay? I am in error when I do this. Discipline is either. There are two things that come to mind. It's a strategy for compliance. Okay? So I just need you to do what I'm telling you to do right now in this moment. So I'm looking for that compliance, or the backside of that is, I just want my kids to be able to function in the world. So if you will just listen to me and do what I say, then you'll be fine. And somehow, if you don't listen to what I say in this moment, then you're not going to be fine. And then I'm not going to be fine. [00:06:09] Speaker B: Right. [00:06:12] Speaker C: So then discipline becomes loaded with all this other stuff. And that's not all of what discipline is. It's not even the best way to think about discipline. But it's the thing that sort of hits me in the moment when one of my kids is going in a divergent direction, let's say, somewhere I don't want them to go. [00:06:38] Speaker B: So I think what comes to my mind is how we can think about discipline as this idea of teaching and instruction, and how do we reframe it in a lens where I think it's okay as a parent to sort of want your child to be able to function in the world. Like there's, that is not at the essence of that, like an impure motive. Right. Like, I think we could all agree that we, we do feel the responsibility as parents to help shape our children's behavior. And I think what happens, I love what you said about compliance, because I think this is where we go wrong, is we think if we gain compliance, then we're shaping behavior, and we're not, in the long run, always shaping behavior. We might be changing the moment, but how is that really getting us where we want to go? And we have borrowed over the years this concept from our friends at Karen purpose Institute of Child Development and Trust based relational intervention, this idea of three c's and three ds as a framework for thinking about correction. So let's talk about that and apply that with this concept in mind. How do we move towards addressing behavior with three c's and three ds in mind? So do you want to start kind of talking through what some of that is? Matt? [00:08:12] Speaker C: Yeah. So we talk about the difference between distancing strategies and connecting strategies, right. So when we talk about the are, those are sort of coming out of that distancing strategy. Right. So you could sort of put a capital d in front of distancing. And then what happens when we use distancing strategies with our kids? Well, we wind up with these three ds, deferred behavior. We wind up with discontented children and adults, and we wind up with disconnected, feeling disconnected from each other, the child and adult. So on the other hand, if we use a connecting strategy, the result is corrected behavior, a content child and adult and a connected child and adult. So that's the overall view of the three c's and three ds. [00:09:30] Speaker B: I think what I appreciate about the comparison between the deferred behavior and the corrected behavior. Those that might feel a little confusing because in the moment, if you come down with sort of a punitive punishment mindset or my way or the highway, there might be corrected behavior in the short term, but you haven't taught skills and strategies and had intrinsic motivation where when they're on their own, they're going to make that choice. So that's what we mean by even the deferred behavior. So you can do something. Sure. And they might stop doing x right now, which might help you get out the door, get the homework done, get chores completed, whatever is the requirement of the moment. But how have you really impacted their ability to navigate a stressful situation on their own? [00:10:23] Speaker A: That was one of the most helpful imageries. Imageries, would that be images, most helpful. [00:10:32] Speaker B: Point of imagery for you? [00:10:34] Speaker A: Yeah, one of the most helpful pictures for me was the picture of deferral. Because I think in my mind, I tend to think of, well, yeah, I can stop this behavior right now, but I'm not stopping the behavior right now. Right. There might be a temporary break in that behavior, but there's no shutting off of that stream. That's sourcing that behavior. And I think that's the better picture, is what we're trying to do in addressing behavior through the lens of connection is we're trying to turn the faucet off. That is sourcing. Whether you want to call it maladaptive or dysregulated behavior, that stuff is coming from somewhere. And if we don't figure out where it's coming from and help bring healing in those places, it's going to continue flowing. You can build the dam as high as you want. And maybe the most classic picture of this is that I went off to college having a pretty decent amount of exposure to kind of the regular things that would be temptations in college for a shielded, protected child. And so I got to college somewhat with my eyes open, but I was in a suite with a few other students who were coming from extremely, extremely, I would say overprotected, kind of sheltered places. And they were stepping out of the bubble, straight into an environment with almost unfettered access to whatever they would want to get into. And pretty soon after that, about half of them were nuts, just out every night till 04:00 a.m. Because the access had never been there. They'd never been taught how to handle any of those other opportunities that were going to exist. And the other half just kind of kept on maintaining a similar lifestyle that they had had back home because they had been taught a paradigm for, here's why we don't engage in this, this or this. And so I think that's a very stereotypical example that I had. But it made sense, like, those of us who had been kind of prepared for those places and opportunities, there was not an overreaction to it. And so we don't want to build the dam so high of deferred behavior that once opportunity comes and there's not the authoritarian rule in place, that it's free reign into it. [00:13:01] Speaker C: Yeah. There's also the sense, too, in which distancing can often lead to just more dysregulation. Now, you may not see that dysregulation. So if a child is running around and just acting kind of crazy, and you're like, hey, stop that. You're kind of trying to get them to just stop a particular behavior. They may stop it, but they may stop, because now they've gone into their anxious brain. Right now, I'm just trying to avoid getting punished or whatever the consequence that's going to come, as I see dad about to blow a stack. But we're not learning in that moment. We're not joining together to say, hey, let's calm down for a minute, and let's come over here beside me and let's talk about what we need to be doing from this point forward. Right? [00:14:02] Speaker B: I love that, Matt. It brings to mind, I was in a situation last week where I was in a public restroom and there was a baby. I mean, I say a baby, they were probably two years old, maybe, and just, I don't know what happened before they came to the bathroom, but they were crying. They were not well in their little bodies and brains. And I do try to suspend judgment, because I do believe we're all doing the best we can at any given point, including us parents. But whoever was with baby was so dysregulated themselves that all they were doing was literally yelling at the child to shut up and stop. And I'm like, oh, hon, if you just pick them up and pat them on the back and bounce them a minute and tell them in a calm voice, it's going to be okay, they'd probably stop crying. But all they knew to use and all the strategies they had at that moment was that fear and big screaming, yelling, stop crying. And I'm sure babies stopped crying, but they were not a regulated, calm, connected, content baby when they stopped crying. And I think that's the interesting thing about the nuance here between those C's and DS. They're so man, oh, man, they can even look from the outside. Very similar. But it's about this intuitive ability to understand. And I think about one of the ds is discontent. Child and adult versus content. Child and adult. Let's talk about that for a minute, because I might feel very content if I've stopped a behavior in a way that feels like, big and whatever, aggressive or whatever to me, but is the child content? Or there might be a certain kind of discipline that is familiar to me, and I might feel very content after I do said discipline. But does the child feel content? So it's not just parent centered, and it's not just child centered. It's this very sort of attachment centered way of thinking about discipline. What comes to mind when you hear that, Matt? What's on your mind? [00:16:12] Speaker C: Well, just complete identification with the idea that in that moment, we can be rewarded by whatever the child does that is in response to what we're saying or what we're doing. We have the power to stop behaviors or to make this child feel afraid of their next step for what we might do. But somehow, on the backside of that, knowing about connected parenting principles. Now I can see or I can even feel this discontent with, but we're not connected. And even if I get that compliance or I get a particular behavior that I'm looking for, I don't feel right. Something's not right about this. And I know what's not right is that we're missing the connection piece. I have not taken the next step to say, all right, that happened. Now, what's our connection point from here? How do we go forward, and how do I reconnect with my child so that they feel content? And I feel content because I know that we did the connected parenting thing. [00:17:41] Speaker B: What if we put some legs on this and talk about, what are some of those examples? What are some things that we might be doing? Or what are some of our disciplines, tools and strategies that we might have in our tool belt that might be either we know or we aren't even really sure might be creating that distance versus what are some things that we could do instead that might build that connection while supporting changed behavior over the long haul and connection? Because I think we might fundamentally know what we shouldn't do or what doesn't feel good to us, actually, I really encourage parents. Trust your intuition. You know, if there's connection or distance, you know, if there's contentment or discontentment, so what might we be doing? Even accidentally, that might be feeding into some of the distance versus building that connection. What example you have. [00:18:42] Speaker C: Yeah. So distancing what that looks like in everyday life. Again, we have all done these things, right? I think I would venture to say we all continue to do these things at some level, but it's really good if we can sort of see these in the distancing column so that maybe we can look for better, we can move something over into the connecting column. So distancing strategies that we use, even sometimes by default and not conscious choice, are we can be adversarial with our kids. We can have call that an adversarial stance with them, which is you're acting foolish and I am the wise parent and we are about to throw down in some form or fashion. It's going to be a battle of wisdom versus foolishness. That's adversarial. Using time out. Now in a minute we're going to talk about time in. But using time out is a distancing strategy. It's kind of a, look, you go over there and get yourself together and think about what you did wrong, but it's all about the child being by themselves and trying to figure it out on their own. Or as a parent, you may say, well, but I've taught them enough where they know what they did wrong. And I'm thinking, okay, then why do they need time out? They already know what they did wrong, then why are they time out? What you may just need there is you need a break from whatever was going on before, and time in will work much better for that. And I would say that sending a child away, it may not be the time out corner, but it could just be. Look, you were all up in my hair and you were frustrating the mess out of me. And you just need to go outside or you need to go to your room, you need to go find something else to do so that you're not bothering me. That's distancing. Lecturing is a form of distancing because I think lecturing sometimes does carry that adversarial stance with it. And there's a way to teach without lecturing. But a lot of times we just go straight to that because that's what we experience growing up and that's what our parents experience growing up, and that's just what parents do. And also what kind of goes with that, a lot of times is that when we're lecturing, we're focusing on where our child is failing and we want to empower them for success and not focus on failure. I think once we've already gone into this mode of correction with them, they know that something's wrong. We don't need to pound that point. Those are things we do that are in that distancing column. So then the. [00:22:20] Speaker B: Hold on real quick, Matt, you said something about the adversarial stance and something that came to my mind as an example of how this might play out with me every now and then. I mean, I'm not saying it does, but it just might, every now and then, show up, which is who's going to win the argument. I loved how you said, like, wisdom versus foolishness, but it could also be a scenario where it feels like I have to win here, or sort of my way or the highway, or you don't have voice and choice, or I always know best, or those are the messages that we might be sending. Like, the child is the opponent, the problem at hand, or the situation isn't something we're working on together, but, like, you're the problem. I have to win. And so I think there's so many ways our own personal adult stress responses can show up in these three ds. Right? Maybe the adversarial stance might be like, if you get in a situation and you want to fight it out, or sending a child away might be your adult way of fleeing. I can't be in this moment with you. Like you said, go away. Or I wonder what all is happening in us that we could be aware of that might be playing in how we distance ourselves from our children. Right. [00:23:50] Speaker A: Well, we can reframe the adversarial deal to remember that oftentimes we get baited into. I have to win this argument right now because it might challenge you there. But if we could take a nerd nugget and think through the Star wars like the Jedi lens, oftentimes, if we can stay in wisdom and not get baited into foolishness, we can remember that it might feel great for a kid to feel like he won an argument as long as the couple of things that you needed to address and course redirect get taken care of. And so there's almost this element of letting them be adversarial, letting them be foolish in how they're communicating, and then kind of letting that guide the discussion into. My ultimate goal here is connectedness is healing, and I can let them be adversarial, and I can say wise and navigate into the right space. [00:24:49] Speaker B: Yeah, we kind of talk sometimes about measuring their intensity without rising up to whatever's happening there. What does it look like to show up in a way that isn't about winning? If you're in this, somebody's going to lose if you're trying to win. And that is not going to help our children, our teens, our young adults have the skills and strategies to navigate when we're not around, which is your whole point. Early JD. Right. Like, that's your example. We are hoping that in moments of stress or dysregulation or places when our kids are not able to, quote unquote, do well by whatever is required of the moment, that instead of them feeling like we're out to get them or punish them, make them comply, but we're actually there saying, all right, let's come at this scenario collaboratively, which sort of takes us into those C's, right? [00:26:00] Speaker A: For sure. [00:26:01] Speaker C: Yeah. So that's where the connecting strategies come in. So rather than having an adversarial stance, we could have an advocacy stance, which may look like, hey, look, I'm for you. We're on the same team. Let's work together to figure this out. Also, one of the things that just stands out in my mind that Michael Monroe said that the whole, you are not in trouble. And you can say that loud enough so that the child understands, I'm not yelling at you, you are not in trouble. But we got a situation here and this needs to change and we're going to work together to change it. And then, of course, time in, time in is really just an attitude of even if we're not in the same room, even if we need to take a little break and you need to go play with legos while I go empty the dishwasher, we're still in the same emotional and mental space, and we're going to come back together in a few minutes. So why don't you go do that for about five minutes? And I'm going to go do this for five minutes and we're just going to let ourselves kind of calm down and then we're going to talk. That's a form of time in. Time in have to be. The child is right up against you and on your hip. It could be, but it doesn't have to be. [00:27:42] Speaker B: Before we move on, Matt, I want to sit right there for a minute because I think this gets some parents tripped. Yeah, because this is about knowing your kiddo. So how you navigate time in is so about knowing the child in front of you and their tendencies and what they need to regulate and knowing yourself. So negotiating. I love how you said that you're staying in the same emotional and relational connected space, but you're meeting each other's physiological or nervous system need to find a place of regulation. And it's not about a punishment alone and figuring it out. It's, hey, I'm meeting your needs here. I'm meeting my needs here, and we can do that together. Such a different mindset, right? [00:28:34] Speaker C: Yeah. And of course, the communication is totally different. It's not. You go figure that out on your own. I'm still with you. Even if we're in separate rooms, because we're coming back together. Yes, we have a plan to come back together. [00:28:50] Speaker B: And it feels so honoring. I think there's a piece of this that is just, it gets me excited, because I think even allowing proximity to change, like time in, isn't about always close proximity. There can be some distance, physical distance. And that, to me, is such an honoring thing because it is really looking at the child as somebody you are advocating for, you're advocating for their long term ability to stay regulated, and you're advocating to meet their needs in the moment as well as your own. And I remember when this was a massive flip that was switched for us. And you know, what started to trickle in, like, hope and joy and possibility when I was like, oh, I don't have to punish everything my kid does because they might be dysregulated. I can work with them. I can be curious and meet their needs, and we can stay connected, and we can find a place of hope in the middle of what might even be a very, from the outside dramatic behavior. There's a different way right here in this little bullet point that literally could change and open up so much possibility in your family's well being. [00:30:19] Speaker C: Yeah. And I mean, this really played out for us as our kids got into the teen years, because teenagers love to when they get dysregulated, I don't say they love it, but they do it, which is they slam doors and go to their room. A lot of times they seek distance, and there's a way to honor that distance. I will not force you to stay here and talk to me. If you need to go to your room and calm down, that is fine. I would appreciate it if you told me that's what you're doing. [00:30:49] Speaker B: Right. That's what we can scaffold towards, scaffold them towards saying, I think I need a little time. [00:30:56] Speaker C: Right, right. But even if said teenager slams door and goes into room and then slams that door, as if do not come around me for the next week, go back up there in about 15 minutes and just gently knock on the door. Hey, are you okay? Do you want to talk? And if they say no, say, okay. Well, I'll come back and check on you later. But see, here we are. This is still a form of time in, and I'm offering my presence in that situation. [00:31:30] Speaker B: Can I also say sometimes that knock on the door for me includes a little drink and a snack for some kids. And, hey, hon, I know it's been a long day, and that was a hard minute in the kitchen. I've got a little something like, I'm not saying I always do that, but it's a little bit of a, like, I see you. I honor you, I value your current state. And just like I might give water and a snack to a toddler, I'm going to bring something yummy to my teenager behind the plant. [00:31:59] Speaker C: I have left a coke by the door and cracked the door and let an animal in there, the kid's favorite pet or whatever. You don't want me around right now, but I'm still offering my presence. I'm still offering nurture. And that's connecting behavior, I would venture to say, if you want to have. Because ultimately, I think we all want this. We want to be connected to our kids for life, right? We don't want our kids leaving the house going, man, I'm so glad I'm out of that place. Right? We want our kids to thrive out in the world, but we also want to remain connected to them. And doing things like that, that honors their space, it increases the probability that they'll want to come back and that they will seek us out and they'll want to have an adult adult relationship with us in the future. So, yeah, we offer them our presence. We offer them support if they're dysregulated. Hey, look, I know this is not going well right now. What do you need? What can I do to help you right now? And they may not be able to access that, but just the fact that you asked, that creates a space so that when they're ready, they can tell you. And even if they don't, you offered. That's nurturing behavior. [00:33:36] Speaker A: I think that a lot of times you might be having the back of your mind, time out. So the kid just gets to go to the room, slam the door, and they're dictating how this goes. And no, to reframe this. Like, we talk a lot in our class about sharing power or giving power, giving options. And what we're doing is we are hoping as young children, we're teaching them to advocate for what they need in moments of dysregulation. So if they are going to their room and seeking that moment alone to kind of calm down, you are still driving like you're talking about Matt, still driving that process by checking in. Hey, just want to let you know, and what we do, and this doesn't work for everybody, but the phrase we always use is, hey, we're not done talking about this, obviously, you know that. Are you ready to talk now? Or do you want to wait a few more minutes? It's not like, do you want to talk about what happened? No. [00:34:30] Speaker B: Okay, fine. Sorry. [00:34:31] Speaker A: And run back downstairs. That's not healthy. And that's not. We're trying to promote. But if we are giving them the option of, do you want to talk now? Do you want to talk a few minutes later? You're letting them know also in that moment, gently and not in a combative way, hey, we are not going to leave what happened alone. We do have to have some resolution there. And so you're setting that precedent. Like, I can take the time that I need to fully calm down before I go back to a conversation. Because we need that regulated brain to come back for that last negotiation and solving of the problem, right? [00:35:05] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. I love this point, too. Just on the connecting side, rather than on the distancing side, we're focusing on where the child has failed. On the connecting side, we're focusing on our child's preciousness. No matter how old they are, you are communicating in some way to them. You are precious to me. And I want to work through this problem together, and I believe that we can. And so let's together figure out a solution to this that feels right to both of us. It may not feel like we each got 100% of what we wanted, but we can problem solve. We can compromise with each other. [00:36:01] Speaker B: I think it leaves when you can explore sort of addressing behavior or again, moments of stress or tension or those kinds of things with this mindset. This is where I was saying, like, when I gave myself permission, which it was very scary to do. So if you're hearing this and you're like, I don't think so, that feels like a recipe for pure disaster. I want to honor that feeling of, like, oh, that feels really maybe hard or scary or concerning to start approaching behavior in a really different way. I would just invite you to think about what are the long term goals you have for your child. Like, try to rise above the moments of stress and look at the long haul. And we do want children that will go outside of our homes. And I was thinking earlier when you were talking about JD, like, giving them the time to have choice, to sort of regulate or cool down or take a beat. We do that with adults. Don't you want your children to be in relationships and friendships and partnerships where they know their own stress responses and they have the tools to regulate those so that they can build healthy, thriving adult interactions? We don't want them to just be silent or comply. We want them to understand what's happening in them, how to meet their needs, and how to navigate in adult relationships in a healthy way. They will learn that in our homes or they won't. And that is what those connected strategies are doing. It's honoring individual, different ways of seeing the world, different stress responses, different needs, different desires. It's negotiating and connecting and problem solving and returning back to relationship. It's the good stuff. It's the long term change and healing and hope and growth that we want for ourselves. By the way, if you're new to this, you'll have to do some learning about yourself first or alongside the process, too, which is such a good, good thing. So I think that's kind of my closing thought, is like, if you're feeling some would, I would ask to the best of your ability to look up a little bit and see beyond the stress of the moment or the stress of the day to what do you really, really want long term? I'm not saying Matt and I are. Well, we're seasoned parents who I think both made some significant shifts for similar reasons. So we could offer just a little bit of wisdom. It does not always turn out still the way you want it to. This is not a magic solution. This isn't like an easy way out. This is a long term investment. But it's worth. Yes, it's really worth it. [00:39:21] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:39:23] Speaker A: Matt, any closing thoughts for us as we wrap up? [00:39:27] Speaker C: It is worth it. The connection path is usually harder in the moment. It requires more self curiosity, self reflection. It requires just reorientation. It requires fighting against our defaults. But if we'll practice it, it gets better. It's never easy, but I think we can get into a little bit of a groove with it. Especially when you see the results. When you see the results on the other end, it's motivating to continue to use the connecting strategies. [00:40:16] Speaker B: Agreed. [00:40:17] Speaker A: Awesome. [00:40:18] Speaker B: But it might be scary. That's my last thing. It might be a little scary if you're scared, it's okay, but take a risk. [00:40:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:26] Speaker B: It's worth it. Sorry, jd. No, that fear. I remember that fear of being like, are you serious? You're serious? Everything won't go nusso in my family if I change my way of doing. And it did get harder before it got better, but we had to learn together new ways of interacting. [00:40:44] Speaker A: That's right. [00:40:45] Speaker B: I remember the first time we didn't give our kids a consequence, they said. Or what I was like, oh dear, oh dear. I do not know what do you mean or what? I don't have a consequence for you. Okay. Oh gosh. How do I move you towards the needed outcomes here when I don't have a punishment in mind? So it feels like potentially shaky ground. Just keep working through it. And the fruit on the other side is so good. [00:41:14] Speaker A: It's just. I have one wrap up question then. Maybe you don't have to share the exact example, but I think, or what is a terrifying question for parent, especially a parent who grew up in the terrifying answer to. Or what was like something horrible for you. Right. So what is your answer? [00:41:32] Speaker B: Well, you can tell that we were obviously had laid a pattern of adversarial stance with each other. Like that was the pattern in play, because that was how I was getting compliance. It was do this or you have a consequence, right? So when I said, hey, you want to do this or this or whatever, and it was. Or what? I remember where I was standing when that question was asked and my whole body probably thought, I have no idea, but it's not going to be a consequence. And I think I said, there is no or what. We're going to work this out together. [00:42:04] Speaker A: So good. [00:42:05] Speaker B: And I think they were like, what? And then they had a bit of a meltdown because that was not my normal response. I was changing the rules of English broke. [00:42:13] Speaker C: Mom. [00:42:15] Speaker B: Where did she go? This person I can fight with, right? She's not here. So we had a meltdown. It got real big and I was like, this is okay. I've actually just uncovered why things are not going the way I want them to go into my home. Because my kid asks me, or what? And I don't want that. I want. How about we figure it out together? And it took a hot minute for that new rhythm of figuring it out to get. You said it, Matt. It doesn't always get easier, but you find a new groove. And I don't know where we would be if I hadn't stopped that probably over a decade ago and just said, I'm going to come at this moment in a new way and stick with it. It doesn't take once or twice or two or three times. It takes a lot of practice. But when your kid says or what, you know, you're in an adversarial stance, you probably have a little bit of a fighter on your hands and you might be one too. And you just need to say, hon, there is no or what here. Let's figure out how to move forward. [00:43:29] Speaker A: That. That is good. That's a good place for us to wrap today. So, guys, thank you all so much. [00:43:34] Speaker B: Appreciate you. Thanks, Matt, for being with us. [00:43:37] Speaker C: Yeah, glad to do it. [00:43:43] Speaker A: Well, again, a huge thanks to Dr. Matt Smith and Tana for joining us. And I'll just be thinking about that last piece from Tana where we talked about know or what when the kid know, I have to do this or know being able to. Like, there's nowhere what we're going to just work this out together. That is a super helpful tool to diffuse and begin setting a new normal for your kids that you're not battling on these things. We're working together to fix misunderstandings or confusions. And so again, we'll be continuing on with this series in discipline, looking at it from different angles and different facets of it as it comes next week. And so we hope that we will see you there for mo, Anton Odinger. For Dr. Matt Smith. For Kyle Wright, who Edison engineers all of our audio. And Tad Jewett, the creator of the music behind the Empower to connect podcast. I'm JD Wilson, and we'll see you next week on the empowered to connect podcast.