[E214] Fight: Stress Responses 101

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Hey guys. We hope your summer is off to a great start. We thought we would replay a few of our most popular episodes and in the spirit of the overviews we've been doing recently, we are going to rename this little mini series stress responses 101. You know, the summer and the transition into summer can be a really stressful time. There is a reason that they call it maysember or mayhem. And if you have experience some of these stress responses, there is no shame. These things are hardwired into our brains and into our kiddos brains. So as you begin to recognize some of these behaviors that you are hearing about in these episodes, maybe you might want to go Back to episode 205 with our stress and trauma 101 episode. That will kind of let you know a little bit about what is causing stress responses or even what is causing our lower brains to be a little more sensitive in the area of kind of setting off these stress responses. We hope that in seeing and bringing awareness to some of these behaviors that then you can seek to co regulate either when you're recognizing them within yourself or within your kiddo. So without further ado, here is stress responses 101. [00:01:31] Speaker B: Well, all right, we're back. So I think where we'll start today is just for the two of you guys, if you could just walk us through what a stress response is. Like, we know they're automatic. We know they don't define us. Some of us might tend toward one stress response or another. That doesn't mean that's your identity. Now, is that you're a fighter or you're a freezer, and that that governs everything you do. Those instincts obviously were put there biologically to protect us. There are survival instincts, what they're also called sometimes. But why don't we just kind of give an overview, guys, of what a stress response is first, and then we'll dive into our first one after that. [00:14:30] Speaker D: Yeah. So something that human beings have is this, like, alarm system inside of your body, and it tells you something's not, okay, I'm in danger, or I can't handle this, or this challenge is too big for me. And so a stress response is just your body's response to that kind of alarm system. Like, something triggers it. Sometimes it's real danger, trauma, or stress. But once you've Kind of had that alarm system triggered by real danger and stress and things happening. Sometimes it can be triggered even when it's not needed. So the thing about stress responses, J.D. you hit on a lot of it. They are automatic survival mechanisms, and they keep us alive, literally. And emotionally and mentally, they keep us going. Kind of like you said, Tana, we are really resilient and strong as humans, and our stress response is part of the mechanism that makes that happen. What happens, though, sometimes is that these stress responses come up when they're not needed, when they're not necessary. And maybe we get triggered by our own perception or our own understanding of a situation. Maybe somebody's facial expression really trips us up, and all of a sudden we're reacting out of this fight, flight, freeze, fawn response. And it's not a survival situation, but it feels like it in the moment. So just like you said, we always remember, it doesn't define us and it's automatic. You don't choose it. You don't wake up in the morning and go, today I'm choosing flight. And like, here we go. [00:16:05] Speaker C: I don't know, Becca, we're about to talk about me. I must sometimes wake up and I'm just teasing you. I'm just teaching to fight. I mean, maybe every now and then we might. [00:16:19] Speaker D: But I think all that we want to do here in this conversation is just begin to reflect. So if anybody listening can just hear what we're saying over the next several weeks and just start to identify, where am I on the map first? Before we try to think about anybody else. If we just start with ourselves, I think it just makes us more compassionate. It makes us more empathetic. It makes us more conscientious. It makes us communicate better, like all those things that we want to do. Just taking stock for a second. So as we talk today, you might be like, hey, this isn't resonating with me. Keep listening, because we're going to hit on some different responses that people have over the next couple of weeks. [00:17:00] Speaker C: Becca, you just said something that I was. That was kind of rolling around in my mind. And I'm thinking back to when I first started thinking about stress responses. And I'm sure when I first heard about was light bulb moments. And I'm making all these connections and sort of a new way of seeing myself and a new way of understanding my marriage and a new way of understanding the people in my life and my kids. And that's really my hope and desire, is that as we consider these, that a couple of things will happen. And one is that we will in essence even honor our stress responses and see them as, as the way that we do take care of ourselves. And so if I can say, like I tend towards a fight response, we're going to talk about fighting a little bit. And just on a personal level, if I understand that when I feel that coming up in me that that is like my way of taking care of me, then I am not like my self talk. The language going off in my head, the way that I feel about myself, the way I. The things I believe to be true about myself are drastically different when I see that part of me as something to like value and something to honor. And I can say that to be true of the people that I love and the people that I parent and that I'm married to. When I see the thing in them that might be hard for me to understand or relate to as that is their way of showing me there's something more going on. And you know, it is, quote unquote, their way of survival and protection and self protection. So the compassionate piece for both ourselves and the people in our lives is my deepest desire for all of us and for me too, collectively. When we think about these things that are automatic. You said it. It's an automatic reaction. They are reactive. I joked when I said I wake up and kind of want to fight. That's just my personality. Sometimes I'm like kind of. But, but in the moment, those instinctive things, yeah, I can learn to support myself in ways that maybe they aren't so reactive, but it's just who I am. [00:19:26] Speaker B: And something that we'll touch on soon is that within community, within, within relationships plural and people plural. There are times where each of these responses is necessary for the group's survival. Right. And for the group's well being. And so there are, I mean, who of us have been in a situation of kind of tense conflict where a fighter steps in and brings peace, right. And gets the situation settled, gets it cleared out. Right. I can think, you know, I can think of a few times where we've been in a part of town. I used to do a lot of after school programs and stuff and there from time to time will be shootings in the neighborhood we were in. And there were times where I had three young little kids and my flight response would start kind of going off like, whoa, whoa, whoa, okay, something's going on, we gotta get out of here immediately. I got three kids scooped up and we are out in a second. Now if I Have a fight response that might not be the best in that moment to then go and take the kids and be like, I'm gonna get to the bottom of this. But it's been a blessing to me at times. I'm glad you mentioned that. Because we don't get to choose or change our stress responses. Right. They're there. And so let's learn to then be able to, like everything else in our life, appreciate where it's an asset and then be able to learn how to recognize and mitigate itself. It's losses that it makes us take. Right. So you mentioned we're going to talk starting off about fight. It's probably the one that everyone knows the most. It has the most name recognition of the survival responses. If you ask people what they are, everyone's going to start with fight. And a lot of times fight or flight is mentioned. So we thought we'd start here today because it's just the most recognizable one in the group. Why don't. Tana, why don't you start taking us through the particulars of this individual response? [00:21:24] Speaker C: Yeah, it's funny you say that because I think in one of our social medias, it's like if. If you have a fight, a person that tends towards fight in your life, you know, it like, there's no doubt about it. It's pretty obvious that that might be their particular tendency. I think that, you know, the instinct for a fight is to be aggressive and fend off danger. I don't want to miss that. When we talk about danger, it goes right back to what Becca said. It's real or perceived, and it can be emotional or physical. So don't just think like life danger. This is like my tendency to be aggressive to protect myself. And I say me because I do identify most fights, so I can personalize that a little bit. But myself from harm, emotional harm, physical harm, environmental harm, financial harm. I think sometimes my fight reaction sort of jumps up. If I feel like my boundaries are going to get busted, if I feel like somebody's going to come too close to me emotionally or ask something of me. Oftentimes my initial response is no, before it's yes. It can be any of those defensive tactics that sort of come outside of us to put a layer of protection around us from the world or from people or circumstances or situations. So it's when we think about these episodes coming up so today fight, and then the ones that will be specific to the other episodes, they'll be the most beneficial as listeners. If you can think about the application across just physical, think about emotional, spiritual, you know, environmental factors, real and perceived. Becca, do you have anything else you'd add to that? [00:23:18] Speaker D: I'm just. What's running around in my head right now is stereotypes about these responses. [00:23:23] Speaker C: Oh, that's good. [00:23:24] Speaker D: As you're talking, Tana. I'm just thinking, man, a lot of times people who tend to fight get labeled as well, that person is just mean. They're a bully. They just don't care about other people. When often they just, they do deeply care about other people. But in an effort to, like you said, protect your boundaries, sometimes it comes out in a really direct, blunt way, sometimes harsh. And so those stereotypes of the responses, it's not, are you a bully fighter or are you a scaredy cat fleer? Like that's not what it is. But a lot of times that's kind of what society tells us. And so I'm just thinking about that as you're talking. I'm thinking, man, if we can just, when we feel ourselves stereotyping someone, if we can just pause and be like, huh, I wonder where that might be coming from. I think that we would find more often than not that it's coming from a place of self protection and survival. And I think that can just give us a different lens because we all have stress responses. We may not all be a fighter, a fleer, a freezer or whatever, but we all tend to one of those in different situations. Something we talked about offline too, that I'm thinking about, about fight and flight and freeze and fawn, is that we might have different ones in different relationships. I think there's a deeply relational piece to this. And so I think about it might look different in your house than it does at your job. And so I just think that that's. Again with this self awareness piece. Those are the things I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about as we begin to be reflective, paying attention to how am I in this relationship and how am I in that relationship? And it might not be the same because so much of it has to do with that feeling of do I feel safe or do I not feel safe? [00:25:14] Speaker C: Yeah, that's what I was thinking about. Becca, is thinking about the stress response. I mean, we're not going to go into the nitty gritty science of it on these particular episodes. But when we say it's biological, it's biological. Like something is happening in your brain. It's shutting off access to rational thinking. You go into your lower brain, then there is like this you know, automatic and intrinsic response that happens. And the fight, flight, freeze, and Fawn. Well, Fawn's a little different, and we'll talk about that when we get there. It's coming from a little bit of a different motivator. But typically, fight, flight, and freeze are fear. I mean, fauna is. It just acts a little different. But when we think about a fight, if you have a fight response, it is coming from a place of fear. And again, that goes back to like, oh, if I can. If I can flip my perception of that and perceive that in such a way, then I can have some. It's not personal. I mean, you would have to take somebody's fight response as personal. It's. It can be understood and valued and honored. We can be in a posture of curiosity. So let's just, like, throw out some things. Like, what if we were going to make some broad sweeping strokes? We don't. Like you said, Becca, we don't. It's nuanced. Not everybody appears the same way. But if we want to make some broad sweeping strokes about what does the fight response look like, what would be some things you would throw out? [00:26:51] Speaker D: So I think the fight response is going to look like, I'm not going to do this. I will not do this, and you can't make me. So I think it's the one. You know, it's a need for control. I need to control this situation, and I will do that by any means. You know, a lot of times on this podcast, we're talking about parenting. So it could look like defiance or like disobedience in any context. It could look like verbal or physical aggression. It could become that. It could become expressed that way right through aggression. And it could come out in bullying. It could. You could be a bully if you have a fight response. And what is it demanding? It's demanding perfection from other people. So don't step on my toes. So that's kind of what it looks like. A lot of times. If we're putting some generalizations out there. [00:27:47] Speaker C: The one that resonates me is that I won't. Like, that's what it says. It's sending the message of like, yeah, I'm not gonna do that. Like, that's not gonna work out for me. And you can try all your strategies and all your bossing and all you're doing and all your every. You can pull out all the stops and I'm digging my feet in and I won't. So if you have a fighter in your life, that is what you're coming up against again, don't assign a wrong motivation for that posture. [00:28:24] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. [00:28:25] Speaker C: If the posture is, I won't and you can't make me, the question is, why? Don't think it's because they are an obstinate, difficult, defiant person. The why is I am under stress right now. I can't see a way forward. I don't know how that would work. I've got to protect myself and maybe the people I love. There is a good bit of, like, protecting of others. That happens, I think, in the fight response. A good bit. But anyway, so that resonates with me that I want. Jd, do you have something? [00:28:57] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I was just gonna say my, my. When we talk about what it looks like, I instantly jumped to, okay, but why? So I'm glad you covered that. For those of us who hear that and we just, like, laugh because it's like, oh, my gosh, that's this person, this person, this person. And I've got friends and family who are just as stereotypical fight response as it possibly gets. So for those of us who have people like that in our lives, how do we need to then be able to kind of look out for them or how can we care for them? In these responses. [00:29:36] Speaker C: I think the first thing might be, again, it goes back to that motivator. Like, what's the core? What's driving there? So maybe even before it's like, what do I do to support them? It might be more like, how can I view what motivates them? Because having that in mind first, I think helps inform everything else you do after that. So if I can say, this is a person that I value, I respect, I love, I'm in relationship with, and in this moment, something is too much for me. Something's too much for them. I mean, and it's coming from a place of maybe hurt. If they have experienced trauma or, you know, a place of feeling vulnerable and taken advantage of, then this is their biological way of keeping that from happening again. And they can't make that stop happening. This is not like a matter of will. This is a matter of, like, again, instinct, wiring, self protection. I mean, it is so impulsive. So the strategies for support come in, helping understand first that don't take it personal. So if I can go, what's happening here is not about me if it's somebody else. It is about me if it's me, the fighter. But what's happening if somebody else has got a fight response Now I'm in a relationship with or in a situation with going, not about me, something's happening. I may have caused something that made them feel defensive. But I don't have to take this situation or their reaction personally. So if I can put it outside of myself enough to like keep self regulated and move towards them with some support, you know, that's that. Those are my initial thoughts. Beck, I'm sure you've got some really good insight there. Thoughts. [00:31:34] Speaker D: Yeah, I think that, man, you hit it so well with the don't take it personal. Because I think when you're in a relationship with a fight with someone who tends to fight, it can be really scary. And so I think if you can spend some time paying attention and noticing that about yourself, because if you're scared, then your own stress response, whatever it is, is going to start to creep up and you're going to automatically respond. And so the more that you can dig in and you can start to pay attention, you can go, okay, man, outside the moment, I need to talk to this person. Because it seems like when they're upset, we go hot and that freaks me out. And then I fill in the blank with however you respond. So I think some of it is these intentional paying attention. And then take some time when things are calm, when things are regulated, to have some conversations. Talk to the kids and the adults in your life and have some conversations about, hey, it seems like when you're feeling upset or nervous or when things don't go your way or fill in the blank, it seems like your response is to fill in the blank. You know, maybe yell or scream or punch or kick and just have some of those proactive conversations outside of the moment. I also think that it takes, man, you've said it so many times, Tana. But we've got to honor that. That's that person's way of protecting themselves. And so what do you do? You come alongside. You do that before the moment, during the moment, and after the moment, you communicate, I'm with you. Like, we're in this together. We're shoulder to shoulder. It's not me, the adult versus you, the child. It's, oh man, you are feeling some big emotions, whatever those are. Maybe you're feeling embarrassed or nervous or hurt or jealous. And that emotion is coming out in a way that might not be safe if we're just calling it what it is. If we're just calling a spade a spade, the behavior might not be safe. So as the adult, if I'm going into this conversation, into this moment thoughtfully, if I'm going in really aware of myself and the child. Then I can actually, you know, you have to do all that before you actually do the interventions. Because if you don't do that, you're going to walk into that moment and you're going to feel scared because. And maybe you're going to feel scared and maybe you have a fight response. So you're like, I'm not scared, I'm ready to deal with it. But that might come from some fear of your own self. So I think I'm saying a lot to say self awareness, awareness of the other person before and then you can walk alongside, alongside somebody. You can communicate verbally and non verbally. Like we're in this together, let's figure this out together and then we can move towards some strategies. But if we skip that step, which we often do, then it's just their stress response meeting our stress response. [00:34:28] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's about like that deep breath and grounding of yourself so that you can be emotionally available to communicate. I am with you in this moment of thing that's causing you stress. I will say this, as a fighter, I can tell you some things about like what I do need and what I don't like what is helpful for me and what's like not helpful for me. So as a fight response, if somebody comes in and makes a lot of assumptions about what's wrong, that tends to not go so well. So like just some like a few words and calm presence and proximity as it is, like physical proximity, like how close you are is, is something you need to be really careful with with somebody that might tend towards a fight response. So you, it takes a lot of attunement and we'll talk about this for the weeks to come. Anytime you're walking into supporting someone else in their moment of stress, you've got to be attuned and regulated yourself in order to offer that regulation to the person that you're supporting. And the attunement piece comes in there. You can't make assumptions. And it is not a one size fits all sit. Like someone who has a fight response. Not all fight response. You know, people need the same thing. So get to know the people that you're in relationship with and they might need you to be close physically or they might need some physical distance. Like moving into their space might activate that lower stem feeling of danger. Like this might not be the time to scoop the small child up and hold them tight. That might make them feel more scared. You might need to like get quiet and Lower your voice and get down on the floor and sit beside them and don't touch them physically. Like, this takes a lot of attunement and, like, creative problem solving, especially as a parent. Like, if we just want to talk about. In the role of parenting, if you are trying to help a kiddo that tends towards fight, they're not going to need the same thing every time. They don't need you to fix the problem. They don't need you to assume what's wrong. They need you to be quiet, calm, and available when they're ready. Like, just offer your presence on their terms, not on yours. On their terms. [00:37:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And patience. Like, they need your patience, you know, from being the parent of two different fighters who are in two different styles of that. I've got one that will detonate if I step within a certain radius. And I've got one that is, like, see, you don't even care. You're standing across the room. And, like, it took me a minute to go, oh, like, to this one, I'm communicating, you know, disinterest and looking down my nose at them because I'm not physically in it with them close by. And one really appreciates behavior matching. And so matching my tone with, I cannot believe that, like, I'm so sorry this is happening. And then the other you're saying, all right, I hear what's happening, and you're right to be upset about that. So how do we. You know. So I think, again, this might not be the answer that a lot of us are looking for. It requires us to be students of our people, and it's not limited to kids, obviously. Like, all that we're describing is also being married, being friends, being in close proximity with somebody else, being co workers, employees, up. So I think all of these. It is easier as a parent to get in this mode because you're responsible for another person's life. But if we can get into this same kind of detective mode, the same kind of curiosity. Curiosity in all of our relationships. I think it starts with giving some benefit of the doubt, giving some trust in those issues. Like, I know this is not what it appears right now, so let me kind of dig in and find out why this is a bigger deal. I think one of the things that I'd be interested in us talking about in just a minute is just repairing. But, Becca, why don't you share something else about this? [00:39:02] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, man. I'm just really resonating with. It's not one size fits all. And I just. I know I Know people that are with kids, whether you're a parent, whether you're a teacher, whether you are, whoever you are, whether you're a counselor, whether you're an aunt and uncle, whoever you are. We want so badly for someone to just tell us what to do. Like, just tell me what to do and I will do it and I will do it every time. Just tell me what do to. To do. And man, I wish it was that simple. But I love what you said, Tana, because. And I love what you said, jd, about being a student of the kid. And if we're focusing on kids for just a second here, I think about. You said it, Tana, being creative per kid and per situation. And I think if we can shift our goal. A lot of times the fight response is scary to other people and it might be hurtful to other people. Yes, it might be hurtful to other kids that are around. My experience is from a school, and so I saw, you know, kids being hurt by other kids. And so as an adult, Rebecca, real. [00:40:06] Speaker C: Quick, by hurt, you don't always just mean physical. It can be physical. [00:40:10] Speaker D: Oh, 100%. [00:40:11] Speaker C: Hurt can be emotional too. Yeah. Sorry to interrupt. I just want to make sure. We were saying it can hurt our feelings. Can hurt feelings. [00:40:18] Speaker D: You can hurt feelings. 100%. 100%. [00:40:21] Speaker C: Go ahead. Sorry, Fred. [00:40:22] Speaker D: And so as an adult, in that moment, man, you feel protective of maybe other people. And maybe sometimes, if we're being honest, we just feel protective of property. Maybe it's not enough feelings. Maybe we're just like, really don't want you to break that thing. And so what happens is our goal is let's stop this from happening and correct it right now so it'll never happen again. And I just, I do want to say there's no one size fits all approach, but our goal has to be regulate first. And I love what you said, Tana. And I think if we can give ourselves permission to be creative and flexible, and we can't do that if our goal is just correct this behavior for all time. But if our goal is regulate this kid in a relationship. Co regulate. Co regulate in relationship. So that for the long term, we can build relationships and we can build skills like what to do when we get upset and what to do when we're mad and things aren't going our way or we're feeling nervous or embarrassed or whatever the case may be. So I think for people that are like, but tell me some things to do, a lot of times the fight response gives a ton of extra Energy. So think about physical things. Taking a walk, going to get a drink, pushing something over, moving your body. A lot of times that can. Those are some ideas to put in your toolbox. For some kids, other people being around is extremely embarrassing. And so if you can offer a way for them to be away from other people's eyesight, that can be super helpful. Some kids need to express themselves so bad. And so if they can do it verbally and you can just listen non judgmentally, you can just let them say what they're feeling. Listening doesn't mean I agree that so and so is the worst person in the entire world. But I can listen to you say that and I can empathize that that's how you're feeling. Right? And so I think, I don't want to leave people hanging of like, I don't know what to do. But think about these things before. Build your toolbox of creativity and think about the kid. What does the kid like to do? What do they enjoy doing? Give yourself, let yourself off the hook, okay? Because you're scared that you're rewarding bad behavior, just calling it what it is. You're afraid that you're rewarding bad behavior. And I am here to tell you, if you don't know the kid in front of you and if you don't meet them and if you don't use yourself and your presence and what you know and being a student of them to help regulate, you're never going to get to a place where you're going to teach the skills needed. Because Tana, you know, you've identified maybe that you tend towards fight, but you don't scream at JD and I in meetings like you. You've never done that. So I think, you know, there are some things that as well, we grow, we have our automatic responses and we grow our ability to handle our stress and our fear and our anxiety. And so as adults working with kids or parenting kids, we can co regulate, we can build those skills over time. [00:43:25] Speaker C: Something you said, I was like, oh, this is it. Because if we think about, you know, if we're, if we're in a situation where there's a child that is struggling with a fight response and we get maybe emotionally flooded, you know, and our heart starts beating and we're nervous and we don't know sort of how to, how to even offer ourselves to them because it's getting hot in here, it's getting emotionally or physically charged, right? Something to just keep in mind is rational, executive functioning solutions do not apply or Work in the moment. The stress response is happening in the lower part of the brain. So if you meet an automatic lower brain stress response with a lot of executive functioning strategies, like telling them why they shouldn't, giving them threats of punishment if they don't, if you expect that they can in that moment control their behavior. So your intervention is one where you are basically laying down an ultimatum for them to quit it or else it's never going to work. Like it's, it's not going to. It's not actually meeting their biological imperative, the needs that they have, and it's only going to frustrate you, it's going to fracture, it's going to just explode. It's like pouring gasoline on a fire. So even whether your interventions are maybe punitive in nature, or even if you think they're helpful in nature, just take a beat and think, am I expecting this particular child who is operating in their lower brain to make a rational thought right now? If so, don't set them up to fail or you up to fail. Take a beat, Becky. Your immediate ones were about their body because you are wanting to help move them from the lower brain area of reaction up through and having access to their upper brain by getting them moving, giving them something to do, getting that energy and angst and anger and emotion out of themselves. You told, you said let them talk it out. Well, that's a brain strategy. Getting, like allowing somebody to verbally process is a regulating tool. I'm thinking about a family that. And some of this might be really hard for some of y' all to hear and I appreciate it, but I think it, I think it really drives home a lot of what we're talking about. And I was working with the family and they had a. He was probably like a tween age boy and he was pretty physically volatile in the family and was causing some sibling concern and some parent concern. And there was some fear happening, some secondary trauma going on in the family because of the volatility of his behavior. And so we started meeting and coming up with like whole person strategies to sort of help him calm and regulate and de escalate situations. And he had been physical and they started implementing some changes much about what we're talking about, like just being calm in the moment, not, not telling him to stop, but try to figure out what he needs, try to empathize with his emotions. And I tell you what, we met over the course of a couple months and they came in for an appointment and the dad, they came from a really conservative Background. And he said, I can't handle it anymore. He is cussing all the time. And he was, like, spewing pretty significant language. And I just took a beat. The dad was. He was pretty frazzled, as I can appreciate. And I said, can I ask a question? Did he hit anybody this week? And he was like, no, he didn't. Did he break anything? No. Was he violent? No, but he won't stop cussing. And I was like, well, did he cuss a month ago? No. And my recommendation. And I don't want it to bristle anybody's feathers. Just hang with me a minute. I was like, can you give him a safe place to cuss? Okay. Like, maybe you don't want him dropping the F bomb at the dinner table with the younger siblings when he's mad about having to eat something, but can he go to the bathroom and do it? And it was a really. I had to, like, beg them to just give it a try. And they did. They gave him a safe place in the house to go get all his cussing out. But the important thing to remember was they had a kiddo who had a fight response, and they did what we call scaffolding, which is they worked him towards the desired behavior in baby incremental steps. And we're going to celebrate the fact he's not hitting, he's not breaking anything. Okay. Now he's using his words in a way that we don't want him to do, but go give him a minute. Just let him get it out and celebrate the fact that he didn't physically hurt anybody. Yeah, of course. Over a couple of months, guess what? He wasn't cussing as much either. Like, he was figuring out how to manage his stress in ways that were acceptable socially, that were acceptable relationally, and that were, like, acceptable in the home with the support of his parents. They didn't just make him stop. They gave him a replacement option. [00:48:55] Speaker B: He. [00:48:55] Speaker C: The violence over time regressed. The verbal aggression minimized. It took a long time. It wasn't overnight. It wasn't a quick fix. It was a supportive thing. Becca, do you have something to add to that? I bet you do. [00:49:10] Speaker D: I'm just thinking. We had. I worked at a school as a dean of students, and we did have a significant number of fighters. And it's hard. It's hard if you're in a situation where other people are getting nervous and you don't. And you, as the adult, you want to show that you can control it. And so I just really appreciate that idea because a Lot of times that is what it looks like. And a lot of times, if your kid is old enough, giving them a chance to write about it can also be helpful. I had a desk in an office down the hall from a kiddo, and me and the associate dean found a yellow journal, and we called it his journal. It has name on the front in big black letters, and nobody was allowed to open it. It always sat on my desk. And so we had a kiddo who went from, like, knocking over the snack cart in the hallway to, like, storming into my office. And he would sit down and he would slam the journal and he would write every cuss word he could think of. And the whole journal was just. I mean, it was just cuss words. There was no. It wasn't like, I'm so thankful for how my teachers are helping me today. Like, it was not. [00:50:12] Speaker C: Not a gratitude journal. It was not a. It was not. He did not have an attitude. Gratitude in his yellow turtle. [00:50:19] Speaker D: And it was, you know, for an outsider looking in, what they see is a kid screaming. Not words, just sounds down the hallway. They see him slamming himself down. And there was, you know, a little bit of, like, can you do, you know, in myself, insecurity, like, can I do this job? Am I equipped for this? But what you see if you stick with the kids is you see those little moments of growth, and it's like, hey, he went past that same snack cart, and it's still standing. Hey, he went past that same kid and he said, ah. But he didn't say anything else. And so I just appreciate that story so much that you shared, Tana, because I think it's. It gets to the heart. And I don't want people hearing this to hear us say that it's easy or simple. It's not. It's really hard. It's really hard to be parenting or working with kids with any of the stress responses, but it's difficult. But I just think there is hope and be creative and let yourself off the hook. Care less about what other adults think about you controlling a kid and care more about your relationship with the kid and the growth that you're cultivating for the long term. [00:51:28] Speaker B: That's so good, Becca. Yeah. I think, one, we could talk about this individual topic for eight hours straight, right? Like, we could talk forever about this. And so we will 100% come back to all the different elements. I'm thinking we need. We need to get a researcher on to talk about the brain science of this, because it is stunning to learn that Right. Some repair strategies for when you've got a kid in fight. Can we talk about that? We talked about how to kind of be attentive in the moment with. So the dust settles. We're regulated again. How do we repair? [00:52:05] Speaker C: Yeah, it's interesting. Before we hit record, Becca and I had an offline conversation about this. And I'm just going to come straight through the gate and say, y' all want, like, really direct answers to this. And I. We're not. We're not going to give them. And here is why. I could give some solutions that y' all will think are way too lenient, and then I might give other solutions that you think are way too punitive. And it's because it goes back to what I said about. It's about that particular child and how. It's about scaffolding. It's about incremental ability to regulate. It's about, how can they regulate? I mean, if they cannot regulate in that moment, should they be held accountable in whatever way you deem should be? They should be disciplined for something they actually couldn't control? Like, that's really the question. Like, the question is nuanced, and you're not going to get it right every time. It's really hard to pick apart. It's not an easy question to answer. It's about willful and capable. It's about, like, and maybe they could control themselves yesterday and they couldn't today. And it's not that they chose to have an explosion today. It's that, I mean, we do kind of fundamentally believe children do well when they can. If they are out of sorts, if they are in a stress response, if they could do it a different way, if they could react more, you know, quote unquote, appropriately, then they would. So, you know, we've got to repair relationships. We have to make amends. People need to be able to come back to places that are fractured and mend them to whatever ability they can. That I'm a firm believer in that, like, minimizes shame. And shame's so powerful for all of us. It's really powerful for our children. It's really powerful for children who've experienced shame, trauma, and adversity. And so if there has been, I think, Becca, you probably have some good ideas too. Like, you know, if there's been a rupture where other people or other children are involved, and, you know, sometimes we can think they should apologize a certain way or they should make amends a certain way, or they should be responsible to fix something that's broken. I don't know. Maybe they should, maybe they shouldn't. Maybe there's some middle ground. Like this is an, this is an intuitive. There is no one way a child or human being in general, if we just want to make it about all people should repair after a stress response. If we're talking about stress responses, it's so individual. So I'm like, well, maybe we can give some big strategies, like respect to them. Whatever you ask of them, is it respectful? Whatever you ask of them, is it kind of whatever you ask of them, is it about preserving that relational connectedness? Whatever you ask of them, does it foster trust between the two of you? Like, how are you helping them move towards repair in a way that continues to build that connection? It minimizes shame and it like, empowers them for the next time rather than make some like, feel bad about it. I don't, I mean, people feeling bad about things doesn't usually change their behavior, just makes them feel depressed. Like, you know, we are advocates of like, sweetie, that was a hard situation. And do you know what? We all have moments that we struggle and like, just like humanizing struggle is like really a good thing to do. I don't know. Y' all have ideas. I'm sure I could talk about that forever, but I don't have like an exact answer. Just like general things to consider. [00:56:11] Speaker D: I don't have an exact answer either. But I again, when the kid is having a meltdown, we feel the insecurity and pressure of I've got to control the kid. And then after a lot of times, if I'm thinking adult with multiple children in the room, we're like, oh my goodness, if they don't see me deal with this, they're going to think they can do it too. They meaning the other kids in the room. So I think, number one, let yourself off the hook of that pressure. Number two, kids can handle more honesty than we give them credit for. And so I think too, we often think that kids are really simple minded and well, if they just hear someone say I'm sorry, then it'll all be better. And there is a time and place, I think, for teaching how to apologize. There's a time and a place for teaching how, how to listen. You know, hey, I do want you to sit down with so and so and I want you to just listen to how they were feeling and what they were thinking just so you can hear it, you know, just, just so you can hear it. That kind of thing over the long term can help to Foster empathy. You can't make somebody be empathetic, but you can, you know, like give opportunities to practice some skills about empathy. Listening to other people, hearing, seeing those kind of things. That's one thing though, let yourself off the hook. Two, without shaming and being too specific, it's okay to talk to. You know, if you've got one kiddo who is struggling and they are, it is scaring the other kids. You can talk pretty honestly with your other kids outside the moment. Hey, when this is happening, what would make you feel safe? Would it make you feel safe to go into mom and dad's bathroom and shut the door? Would it make you feel safe to put some headphones on so you don't have to hear it? Would it make you feel safe to. So a lot of times we want all the pressure and focus to be on, and I don't want to call it the fighter, but the kid who tends towards fight, we want all the focus to be on that kid. And that kid needs to apologize and that kid needs to do better and that kid needs to stop. Like you said, Tana, it's an automatic response. Also, like we've said, there is growth and there is scaffolding. But I think when we think about the other kids, it's okay to give them permission to like, hey, if something's making you uncomfortable, you can say, please stop. And then if they don't, you can walk to the other room, you can go do xyz, you can text me from your phone. You can. So I think too the answer is not always about the fighter. But if we get stuck and we're not creative, we can get stuck there. And it's like, well, she's crying because he said whatever and he needs to apologize. And like I said, like you said, Tana, we're not going to give a prescription. There's times and places and spaces where maybe, maybe some conversations are appropriate. But give your other kids, other people, some strategies, some ideas, some active things that they can do too. And don't wait for things to fall apart and then force a repair to happen. Be proactive about it. [00:59:04] Speaker C: I think a general Depending on the age of kids and family, there have been seasons of time where individually we've had conversations with different kiddos about their own stress response and then asked them in private with a non shaming way to sort of go, what do you think so and so's stress response is? And they can all name each other, they know their siblings. And so even if we're just talking about Inter family dynamics. Being able to see like it's, it's hard. But sometimes if there is a multiple children and there is a child whose stress response is fear, they often do get labeled as the bad kid. And even helping some of the other children that might have some of the stress responses we're going to talk about in the next couple of episodes see that they have one too. It just may not be as externalized and that doesn't mean they're better. There's not bad kid, good kid going on here. There's family and children who all have strengths and struggles. So bad kid isn't the fighter and you aren't the good kid because you are, you know, the flight or the one that just leaves stress. [01:00:11] Speaker B: Right. [01:00:11] Speaker C: Like so we've had so many conversations in our family about that and sometimes that's kind of enough because you're teaching them to go, you're teaching them to not take their siblings stress reaction as personal. Hey baby. That they. We need to make amends. We'll apologize, we'll set some things right. We're not excusing behavior, but we're teaching children from a young age to honor one another. So this is not about letting people off the hook and just run rampant. No, there's accountability, there's an expectation that we're going to grow over time. There's an expectation that we're going to move towards more capability to hold our stress response in a way that's respectful of others. So this isn't like, eh, everybody have a hard time, we're fine, you know, toughen up each other. No, it's just respecting development, respecting stress, respecting relationships and all growing, you know, together. [01:01:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I can add one thing to the end of that. I think just that part of that repair process is listening to the end, right. Listening until this person is regulated. Which then oftentimes as that regulation starts to come, the story starts to really dial in to the root of what was going on. Right. And so when that happens, it makes the repair. Sometimes you don't have to do anything. It's like, oh, and I need to, oh man, I really hurt so and so's feelings. I need to go take care of that. And there might be some of you listening to this that are like, that is cockamamie. There's no way that actually happens. And I am telling you, I have had that scenario from a kid who I had told earlier in my own flesh and flaw and just grossness that he was cold hearted and had a hardest, you know, like this heart of stone's never gonna fix things because you can't fix whatever. Like I was in my own just ugliness as a parent. The end of that conversation I got to a place of remembering that was the parent I needed to be patient and wait into that conversation. Everything clicked for this kid and they walked down and made their rounds. That I'm not saying that's the recipe. It happens every time like we've said. I am saying you will start as you engage and you're, and you're willing to stick with it. You will start to see these little things and little tactics and tools and practical steps that you can take with each kid that help to bring regulation and then therefore help to maintain and then repair connection when needed. I mean we've talked again. Like we could just go on about this for so long. [01:02:55] Speaker C: I have like five more stories I could share. I'm not going to for the sake of time, but I have like five more like oh, oh, oh and N o o, okay. [01:03:03] Speaker B: I mean I think a good place for us to end might be some of us are listening to this and they're like you tonight, they're to going okay, but that's me. What do I do with myself? Why don't we end there? For those of us who do tend toward fight as our stress response, what are some things for us to keep in mind as we, as we have these responses? [01:03:23] Speaker C: Well, that's a good question. I think it's interesting. It's about showing myself as much empathy and understanding as I would a child that responds that way. And, and sometimes it's like I'm doing my best too, you know, and, and my best is what I've got today. And so I think with any of the stress responses, anytime we're in a reactive state, you know, if we're not in like a reaction place where we're responding to our life or we feel capable or you know, full of energy and ability. Like anytime we're in a reactive state, we're going to do things that we, you know, regret. And so I think being vulnerable, like just have a person or two if you're in a relationship, if you have a partner or spouse or you know, even me as a mom, you know, we've got kids of varying ages. We've got young adults and teenagers and still elementary age kids. And so if I think about myself as a fight response as a mom, my kids know that. So like just being honest about that too. And so like being honest about like who I am Modeling that, like, hey, we all have a stress response. This is mine, what's yours? You know, this is what I do when I get stressed out and I'm tired or hungry or grumpy or overwhelmed. What do you do? So this like, honest self acceptance and modeling that I think gives them permission to have their own. So be vulnerable, but know yourself, you know, put some words to it. Model vulnerability with the people in your life in the moment. Just if you feel it bubbling, if your heart starts racing, if you feel your, you know, jaw tightening, if you feel your fist tightening, like, know your physiological reactions. Fighters. We hold it in our body. So feel your pulse. Like, just be mindful of what your internal signals are. And then take a beat. Practice the pause. We talk a lot. It empowered to connect about practicing the pause. Like, what's that mean? Tell the people, hey, I'm going to just need a minute to calm down. I'm going to need a minute to regulate. Like, use those words in a family and model for your people that you need them. Take a walk. I would say get it out of your body. Like, be active. Get up, walk around. I am the queen of, like, deep, long exhales. And I don't even know I do it, but I do it all the time. I will take a big inhale and then I'm sort of ready. And that's like such a huge regulating activity for me. And my people probably know. They might know. They need to just take a beat because mom's just calming herself down a little bit. But I let the people in my life joke with me about it. It's now something that is so. I love myself. I love my people. They love me. They know me, and I can be picked on about it. And that's the key right there. Like. Like, we can be in the kitchen and somebody can say something that they know might make me hot. And one of my young, like, my young teenage girls is the best about it. She's like, oh, you better be careful. You better take a step back from mom. And I'm like, yeah, you better. Like, it's now it's just playful. So I think, you know, laugh at yourself, love yourself. Don't make excuses for your behavior. Like, try to stay chill. Try to stay calm. Not calm, regulated. And then apologize when you mess up because you're gonna. Yeah, that's what I got. [01:07:13] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. Becca. [01:07:16] Speaker C: Yoga, running, exercise. [01:07:17] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, gosh. Well, yeah, I think that's as a closing thought. You know, the science is everywhere around these right so we may decide it's so good we just have to have someone on to walk through all the neuroscience of it. Google is your friend. Our friend Dr. Kenny said that the other day. Like, like Google is your friend. So you can read through the brain science. I am someone that did not love science and math stuff growing up and as a son of an engineer, that wasn't always a feel good thing in our home. And so I found later on I am extremely motivated by hard scientific fact. So if I saw a kind of a cold connection from behaviors that I was exhibiting at the it was not good. But I could see it documented in science. It actually helped me in moments to go, okay, this is just like a brain response. So I just need to get back to a good spot and re engage. And so like you talked about finding those physical outlets especially, and that's for me particularly has been really helpful. My wife knows and she'll say, hey, looks like you need to go on a run. Why don't you get out of here for a minute like and if I will walk back in a different human than I left. And so I think knowing ourselves again is so important. Asking the people who see you and know you closely and then giving them permission to be honest, which is sometimes horrifying, like, but giving them permission to be honest is a vital part of that process. And so, gosh, this again we're going to cut ourselves off because we want to be able to have other podcasts in the future and not run them all out right now. But, but thank y' all. This has been so good and so helpful. If you are listening to this and you found this particularly helpful, would you share this episode with a friend that you think might also want to hear this? I think one of the most helpful things we can do for each other is look out for each other in these moments and get the right tools into friends hands. And so share this with a friend. You can, you know, share it through social media through our Instagram or Facebook account. But thank y' all. Becca and Tana, thank you for coming on today and for talking for a little bit. Let me just give you kind of a sneak peek of the rest of this series. We're gonna talk through the other different survival responses. If you'll stay tuned to our Instagram and our Facebook which is on Instagram, it's just Empowered to Connect spelled out and on Facebook you can search Empowered to connect and like our page and follow us and we're going to walk through. We'll have by the time this airs, we'll have posted a grid with kind of graphics of these different responses and some bullet points kind of detailing them out. We will at some point have a downloadable resource when this series is over that you can have kind of a one pager on each response that you can have. Maybe for you, it'd be helpful to pin it up in the bathroom so that every morning you're reminding yourself, okay, I've got these, these people under my care that I've got to watch out for. Here's my reminder. Reminder of what signs I'm looking out for and how I can best, you know, serve them. And so that will be happening over the next several weeks. One of the beautiful things about Empower to Connect and our team is that as some of you know and you've heard kind of shadows of in the past, we do also have a, a clinic that is a holistic, integrated, attachment focused clinic that is under our, our care in, in Memphis, Tennessee. And so several of the professionals from our team there, be it therapists or OTs counselors, are going to join us as we go through this series to give, to give insight into these different stress responses as well. So we're excited about the next couple weeks. We also have some huge guests that we're excited to bring on with you, kind of national voices as well. And so off to a good start. It felt great to be back at it today. [01:11:00] Speaker C: I agree. So good. That's why we went so long. Like we just have so much for. [01:11:05] Speaker B: The last two months. [01:11:05] Speaker C: Yes, we've got things to say. [01:11:09] Speaker B: Yeah, seriously. Seriously. [01:11:10] Speaker C: It's been good. [01:11:11] Speaker B: All right, well, thank you all so much. [01:11:17] Speaker E: We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, the best way to support us going forward is to subscribe. We'd love to hear from you, leave a review, drop us a comment or email us to let us know what you hope to hear in future episodes. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at etc, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empowered to Connect podcast. Until then, we're holding on to hope with you.