[E192] Myths Pt. 2: Connected Parenting Doesn't Work for Teens

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Empowered to Connect podcast, where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families, and our communities. I'm JD Wilson, and I am your host. And today on the show, we've got David and Tiffany Davault - Cultivate Connection facilitators who are going to talk with us about, amongst many things, about connected parenting myths, especially regarding teens, that this style of parenting does not work with teenagers. Now, we believe that to be a myth. The Devaults do, too. We're going to share with you all about why, and we're also going to talk with them about their parenting story, share about their context. They've had an incredible journey of, in both their professional lives and then personally in their home, parenting kids biologically and through foster care, and you're just going to love them. And so a great conversation with the devalt. If you are parenting teens, dig into this one. This was really helpful for me. We're in the midst of this reason right now, and so hopefully it'll be just as helpful for you. And so, without any further ado, here are Becca McKay, myself, and the Davaults talking about parenting teens. Well, as we said in the introduction, we're here today with David and Tiffany Davault. And so we wanted to talk with them about lots of things, namely just connected parenting myths. What are the myths of connected parenting? We'll talk about one with them particular today. And so we're excited to be with them. But before guys, we jump into, uh, that conversation, obviously, David, you have been on before. And so, um, if you listen to that episode before you, you know, David, but you've not met Tiffany yet. And so, um, for those of us who are listening and have not met you yet, Tiffany, um, why don't you guys both kind of introduce yourselves and just share a little about your parenting background, how you got connected, to Empowered to Connect and all that. [00:01:54] Speaker B: Okay, you're pointing at me. I. We became, gosh, we got married in our teens, so we were babies, but we. When we got married, we started into church work, church ministry, and we were working with a girl, group of girls were taken to a baptist children's home because we were in that convention, and we. I was unaware that children didn't have homes. Like, it was just kind of shocking to me. And I was. I think I was a social work major at that time, and I was like, wow, this is. They just opened my world to what was out there. And so we kind of felt that call, if you will, at that moment, in our early twenties, to be, to foster a parent, to work in a group home, to be the parents, to solve all those problems. And that's kind of the trajectory we went down. We went down that path. I got my master's degree in social work and we went straight into house parenting, which doesn't really require a master's degree, but it was helpful. I won't say, I don't know. [00:02:57] Speaker C: I think you need a doctor. [00:03:00] Speaker B: It didn't hurt. [00:03:01] Speaker D: Multiple phds prepared well, yeah. [00:03:04] Speaker A: Doesn't or shouldn't? [00:03:08] Speaker B: We, we didn't have any kids when we started parenting, and that was in the nineties, and it was a different, we just didn't know what we know now. And so our perspective has shifted over the last 25, 30 years of what parenting is like and just all of all, that's all that's involved. And so when I became. We fostered teens not to. It was started in the 20, 14-15 parenting teens, and it was just a different world. We had teenagers by that point. We'd raised our kids or in the middle of raising our kids, and it was kind of a shift. I, somebody handed me a Connected Child book and I'm like, that's great. I read it and put it up on the shelf. Like, we foster teens. This doesn't, I just don't see that this works in our world and just put it away. Then I became a TBRI practitioner, and I went through that training, like, okay, let me look at this again. We rethink it, and it, it made a whole, it just came to a whole new revelation for me. It just made more sense. And so we kind of implemented that as we move forward with our kiddos. I don't know what you'd have to add to that, babe. [00:04:20] Speaker D: Yeah, we definitely came at parenting, like, from the, I'd say the wrong end of it. We didn't even have kids of our own, and we were already thrown into the fire, so just jumped into the fire to parent other people's kids, you know, and thought we had it all figured out. And what we figured out, I guess, through all of this, though, was, like, how relational parenting is. Yeah. Like, at the core of everything, if. If you don't have a relationship with that child, then all of your attempts to parent are really in vain, like, at the end of the day. And that's what we figured out, too, especially parenting teens. Like, you only have so many years left with these kids, and if you don't have a relationship to send them away with, because they're not going to stay, especially like in our home with the foster kids. You know, they were not going to stay with us long term. But if we didn't have some kind of relationship for them to walk away with, then they would have nothing to stand on when they get out in their own world. [00:05:20] Speaker C: Man, that's, I think just a, I think you're not alone. I don't think you're the only people who kind of jumped in with both feet and then figured out quickly, whoa, maybe we, maybe we're not sure how to, how to do this thing. And so I wonder, um, I think you guys both brought it up. Our, our myth of the day is this stuff just really doesn't work with teens. Um, yeah, it's something that we hear a lot. We know that our friends at the Karyn Purvis Institute of Child Development hear it a lot and we believe that it does work with teens. But maybe, like off the jump, if you just want to dig into this question, why do you think that that is the perception, why is the perception that connected child book, for example, that you mentioned Tiffany or, you know, our Cultivate Connection parenting principles? Why do people just kind of assume this isn't going to work with teenagers? Why do you guys think that is? [00:06:10] Speaker B: Well, I, when we first began fostering, I remember leaving in school, it's like, you know, those first three years are the key. And if you don't hit, you know, get those markers hit in those first three years, it's all, it's for nothing. And I, you know, maybe in 1993 that was more true. I don't think it's more true. I think we've learned. But I just kind of like, well, and even some of the examples that I read and some of the things it's all about those elementary school years and under on the parenting, even the, the scenarios that are brought up. And so it was just, I had a hard time making that transition. Well, kids are coming to us. Maybe they're 16, but developmentally, you know, that. I think that piece that we put together, that part of the puzzle, emotionally they're, you know, four. And so that's, we just don't, it's hard to see that big picture. When you look at the kid, you're just thinking they're 16. [00:07:07] Speaker C: It's not going to work percent, especially. [00:07:09] Speaker A: In the, in the, excuse me, in the context of foster care, oftentimes there's the narrative of teens in the system are what they are. They're, they're baked in the concrete, is dried, so to speak, and you get what you get with them. There's no use in thinking about, you know, trying to parent anybody, because they are already just who they're going to be. David, I know we talked about that kind of off air, like, um, I don't know if you want to speak to that. Like, was that your experience when you guys began kind of taking this approach in your home? Was that the approach that every kid just was who they were going to be and there was no chance, no choice of trying to connect with them? [00:07:50] Speaker D: Absolutely not. I mean, we had. We had kids in our home that were, you know, this child is a fire starter. This child is a, you know, whatever you want to call it. Like, you know, the label has already been given to them. And it was so misconstrued based on a specific scenario that happened, where this child felt totally out of control, out of, you know, had no agency in their own life, and, you know, took a very drastic action to, like, say, hey, please help somebody please help me. You know, and it's like, well, but that label was. Was going to be stuck with them for life. You know, it's like, that's. That's not fair. [00:08:26] Speaker B: Let's. [00:08:26] Speaker D: Let's go back and look at the scenario. But, yeah, you talk about them already being hard baked. Like, the brain doesn't even fully develop until you're, like, 25 years old. So a teenager has a long way to go to have a fully developed prefrontal cortex. I mean, like, let's just do the science on this. You know, there's plenty of opportunity for growth. [00:08:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's one thing that we talk about a lot within our. Our context is the science refutes that. Right? And so, like, if you know that. And for me, so I'm the son of an engineer, and even though I. That is not my professional path, and it's not been, um, math was not always. My dad's chagrin was not always, uh, my strongest suit. There is this kind of DNA baked into me that I kind of understand things in a linear way. And so when I saw the research and when I understood the science behind brain development, that helps so much in me looking past those first impressions that might have come in the work. In fact, Becca and I, years ago, worked together in, no matter what you want to call it, the under resourced neighborhood context. I mean, it was the hood. And we had, um, after school programs and all that, and we would see labels from other teachers all the time. This kid is this. He's a fight. You know, he's a fighter. This, this, you know, don't, don't have him in your programs. He's just going to cause problems. And of course, like, that would make me all the more want to have that kid in the, in our program and what we would, what we found, too. Like, I would see why people would think those things, right. Because the first impressions would come or the testing of limits would come. And then when you push through with relationship, it didn't all of a sudden solve problems, but you would, you would get to connect to someone's heart and then understand, like, okay, it's because no one's doing the work to actually get to know this kid that they are labeling him x, y or z thing. Cause all they're seeing is his stress response, his survival response. Right. Uh, there's so many myths within the teen, uh, scope that I was saying. Do you, do you see any other myths within that? [00:10:27] Speaker C: No, I think that's a big one. The fear that they're scary. Teenagers are scary. I think that's a huge myth and that you're not going to be able to intervene or you're not going to do the right thing or you're going to get it wrong. So I hear what you're saying, Tiffany. I think that's a big myth. [00:10:43] Speaker B: There's a different level of scary, but there are some eight year olds, five year olds that, you know, if we're going to label them scary, which I don't want to do, but their behaviors, they're big, and they're big behaviors when they're five. And they're big behaviors when they're 17. [00:10:59] Speaker D: Yeah. And always the behaviors go back to communicating. They're trying to share something. It's not, it's not even about the behavior. It's about what's. What they're feeling, what they're experiencing and how they're trying to express that and learning to help them express it in a healthier way, like, that's the goal. I'm out of the age of the child. Right? [00:11:19] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think David had mentioned earlier, well, maybe it was before we got on air that the respect level, and like, I was raised, and I know David was raised, you do what I say, you do it the first time. You, you know, I wasn't raised in a yes, ma'am kind of culture, but it was the behavior better. So yes, ma'am. You know, and our kids didn't do that. And in the public, how are people going to see us? They're going to think we can't control our kids or bad parents because our teenagers are sitting in the lobby in church instead of sitting with us in the pew or, you know, just all the little things that we're like, what are other people think? [00:11:58] Speaker A: What do you think when you touched on Tiffany? Like, uh, I'm using air quotes if you're not seeing this, but, like, the, the myth of like, or the. The criticism of you can't control these teenagers. Like, and we talk about that all the time within parenting of lots of different ages. But, like, with teens, why do you think there is such a desire to. Or such a, such a fear of not being able to control kids of that age? Because I feel like I hear that within, you know, parenting bio kids, parenting kids through adoption, parenting is through foster care. Like, no matter what the background is, that is a common theme among parenting teens. [00:12:37] Speaker D: I think we are. We're asking them to be compliant. We're not really asking for them to have control. Like, we're not trying to teach them to have control of their own lives either. We're not even trying to teach them agency. We're just trying to tell them, you just need to be compliant. I think that control word is a misnomer. It's. It's not even the right word, really. [00:12:59] Speaker B: One of. Yeah, one of our girls came to us. She'd been, she was, she'd been in a, in the system for a very long time. I mean, eight years. I don't know. A long time. But she'd been, spent quite a few of those years in residential settings, facilities, not a home environment. And so there were, here's. Here's the rules. Here's what you're expected to do. Here's what happens if you don't follow the rules. And they didn't line up. It didn't make sense. So she's 16 and she's in our home, and, you know, with our kids, it kind of, they developed that we had a scaffolding along the way that we were able to remove. And so when they did something like, well, what do you think should happen? And they would. We dialogue about it. And then, so we asked the 16 year old, well, what do you think should happen? She'd gotten suspended from school, and she blew up. She just flat out blew up. She didn't, she thought we were making fun of her because she didn't know what to do. In that moment, I realized, oh, we've got to go back and set up these, the scaffold. We got to put it back for her because she never had it. She didn't know why. She was following the rules. She didn't know why. And, you know, that's, that's the gap. Kids are going to go into the world because they're expected to follow the rules, do what we say, and then they get out in the real world, and they're not prepared to make their own decisions to. To just to have the. Under the underlying understanding of what's going on. [00:14:18] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so good. [00:14:20] Speaker C: I think if I could, like, name maybe. Why is it so hard to use this approach with teenagers? There's lots of. There's lots of. Why is that? Could be the whole podcast. Just why, why is this hard? But one that's kind of rolling around in my mind right now as I'm listening to you guys talk, is this idea that, okay, teens are at an age where developmentally they're wired to want to be independent, they're wired to do things on their own, they're wired to want to separate from their attachment figure. That's like just Attachment 101. You are securely attached when you're able to come to your adult as a safe haven and when you're able to explore the world because they're your secure base. And so teenagers are in a developmental spot where they're wanting to fly, they're wanting to, like, spread those wings, get out of the nest, like, move on. I remember pretty clearly being a teenager and feeling like I knew more than the adults in my life. Like, I think that that's a common teenage experience. And so connected parenting can be tricky because. Lots of reasons. But you're trying to stay connected. You're trying to keep that secure attachment. And when we're talking about kids who've experienced significant trauma, adversity, aces, loss, grief, whatever the medical trauma, whatever the case may be, you've got a kid, like, you're saying, Tiffany, who might need a little more scaffolded support. But how do we do that in a way that still gives them the, like, dignity that they need to not feel babied. So I think that the heart of this approach is not to embarrass like you're. You're telling a story about, man, she got embarrassed and you didn't mean to embarrass her. That was not the intention. But you're at an age where you're so easily embarrassed, and then you're layering in adult support. So I think it's hard because we're trying to, like, yeah, we're trying to support kids in a way that still dignifies and honors their identity and their desire for independence. Does that make sense? Am I like. No, it's not. That was not concise, but that's what I'm processing as I'm listening to you guys talk. [00:16:28] Speaker B: That makes total sense. [00:16:29] Speaker D: Absolutely. [00:16:30] Speaker B: Yeah. That bind for them is huge. And I think then that brings about more. If we don't really get to the heart of that child and know what, what's behind those behaviors, we're just going to keep that cycle going. [00:16:42] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:16:44] Speaker C: When you guys were, when you guys were parenting teens, what were some of the things that, quote, unquote, worked? Like how, what were the things that you found that really were those bridges to connection really were? You know, David, you said you got to build that relationship because then they're going to leave you. And so how did you build or maintain that connection with the teens in y'all's care? [00:17:06] Speaker B: Well, I, from, from the observation from the outside, especially with, with David, I found it fairly easy to connect with the kids because I was spending more times in the car with them. We're having conversations that I was home with them after school, and David would come in and sometimes he traveled, but he would come in and enter, and it was harder sometimes to connect. How I found that connection for all of us and for David in particular with some of our girls, was just play the downtime that just playing, whether it was a game or just getting outside and riding bikes, I mean, just doing stuff together. [00:17:45] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. That's good. Yeah. [00:17:48] Speaker D: I will say, I think I shared this even in the last episode. I wish that I had known about the different play personalities. [00:17:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:54] Speaker D: Like, and had done some study in them and then done some study in my. On, you know, with the kids on, like, what is their play personality? But I could have really stepped into that because what I tended to do was only use my play personality. And then when that didn't work, then, like, well, there must be something wrong with the kid. Like, they don't want to play, you know, that they don't play the way that I play. And even that I had to, I had to learn, like, the hard way a few times. Like, I can't just come in and say, hey, I want you to play with me my way now and expect that to, you know, get a good response. [00:18:34] Speaker A: And when. And when that happens, too, like, when you do go in and, you know, oftentimes, like, let's say it's after a day of work, like, come in you're a little bit gassed already. You're tired already. And then you're like, I need to make the effort to play. And you go to make the effort to play, and the kid rejects it because, because we don't realize, like, the incompatibility there. It's almost more, not almost seems more frustrating that way to be like, well, then I try to go connect with this kid and he rejects it. And what is the deal with that, Jeff? And it is funny. We have one kid who their, their playstyle is director. So if I go in with some kind of scenario of like, hey, let's pretend that we're whatever, immediately it's like, no, that's not what I want to do. No. And it causes a now I know to go in and say, hey, can we go to your room? Play whatever. And you pick whatever we're going to play. And that kid is like, all right, game on. Here's what you're going to do. You're going to be this person. You're going to be this person. And so, like, it. And immediately, like, allows, allows her to just light up and, and, you know, and it's a great time to connect. And we have all kind of inside jokes of things that happen during those times. You know, luckily, she still have an age too, where I can, like, all the toilet humor jokes still work and they play really great with her. And so, you know, there's. And so that. But we've learned that over time, like, and I've learned that because of knowing, I need to let her lead in that. And then when she does, like, it allows for us to connect together in a way that it doesn't with some of the other kids. And so, um, I wonder if you guys have any, you know, again, as we're kind of, like, shifting from identifying what these things are to them, like, kind of giving some advice for how to, how to handle those. Were there any other things that you noticed were, um, were key or were really helpful in building those relationships? Um, and it could be with, with bio kids, with kids through foster care. [00:20:24] Speaker D: Either one, I would say allowing them to have choices. [00:20:31] Speaker B: That was interesting. [00:20:32] Speaker D: With, with little kids, it's like, do you want the red one or the blue one? You know, I mean, you know, yeah. But with the older kids, you gotta expand. You gotta give more options. [00:20:44] Speaker A: Ah. [00:20:48] Speaker B: Four times. [00:20:49] Speaker C: Okay. [00:20:51] Speaker D: This is the worst there you go meeting ever. [00:20:55] Speaker C: When you're clear, you're really clear. It's not choppy, so it's not, it's not bad. It's going to be okay to something in. [00:21:01] Speaker D: It's something in our Internet system, we have like a, you know, a gigabit connection, and then it just. Something within our own network, literally. [00:21:09] Speaker C: Yeah, no, you're good. [00:21:11] Speaker D: So sorry, but what was I saying? [00:21:15] Speaker C: Cause you were saying that giving them choices, you have to expand from the red and blue plate to. And then you cut out when you were saying what to expand it to. Well, you know, when. [00:21:24] Speaker B: When we would have. You know, when you're making that bigger decisions, do you wanna. Do you wanna even. Whether it's what class you're gonna take. I know with our kids, they could. They could overload themselves and we could see down. We could look down the path and go, this is gonna be a disaster in April, but in January, they're feeling real good about it. Or, you know, giving them those. Those choices. Now with our foster placements, a lot of times their school stuff, we didn't have a whole lot of input to, but we could help scaffold some other areas, give them the choices and then letting them ask for compromises when things didn't go well and. And to release some of that control is that shared power. Right. You know, letting them have some control, some power so that they don't. They do know how to use it when they're not in our home. And we might have had them for two years or six months, but we want them to be able to take that skill with them when they go. I know what it's like to not have been given choices and not given an opportunity to exercise my voice. And I have a hard time asking at a restaurant for them to alter them. Something that when I'm ordering, it's like, I don't know how to my own meat, you know, like, yes, I'll take the greasy french fries. I'd rather have fruit, but I'm not going to ask. That's a simple thing that if we can't ask for those little things, those bigger things, they're just going to follow the crowd. They're going to be compliant to whoever's with them. They're not going to express their voice. They're going to be uncomfortable in situations, and they're just going to go with it. And it's, you know, we do them a disservice. I like that you're going, babe. [00:22:51] Speaker A: But last, last part of the myth that I think we should tackle, kind of in light of that conversation is, um, is the idea that, uh, you know, when teens. When. When teens appearance this way, um, it's just permissive. It's just, uh, you're just letting them do whatever they want. You're not, like, you're not telling them no. And why don't we kind of bridge that criticism into the, kind of the long term. And you just touched on Tiffany. But the long term reason where we believe in parenting this way and how it sets kids up for success. [00:23:26] Speaker C: That'S a big idea. [00:23:29] Speaker A: So, idea of, like, if you're telling kids no and you're, and you're, you're being so permissive and just being too nice all the time with kids, especially with teens, you're not setting them up for the real world. And how would we answer that, man? [00:23:43] Speaker B: I said, if we just let him go and say yes, we're setting ourselves up for a big battle. I know we got lazy sometimes, like, just whatever. And there were the. We went back and that, that was a rough, oh, we had to reconstruct some, some structure and nurture boundary guidelines that we just kind of let go because we were just all just whatever because we were tired and that backfired. So we want. I feel like they need to hear yes, but they also need to have the structure behind it. What were you saying? [00:24:18] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, they need structure and nurture in sometimes really high structure and really high nurture to make it work. But, you know, ultimately, they're, they're only, most kids are not going to stay in the home with their parents for life and aren't going to, you know, they're gonna have to be on their own at some point and make their own choices. So giving them some agency while they have kind of the safety to fail is hugely important because rupture and repair, like, it's part of the process. We've got to keep learning. And there's gonna be ruptures in real, in big life, in adult life, too. Like, and so how do you, how do you repair? Like, that's what we gotta learn. That's a lot of what we have to learn. Yeah. [00:25:02] Speaker C: Did you, do you guys have. So I think in teen, teen years, the stakes are high. Like, you're saying that, and I'm, I'm really resonating with what you're saying. And I'm also like, my little Rolodex brain is going through all the different things that can happen at that age that are bad, and so the stakes are high. How did you guys, if you can think back to that time or if you were giving people advice from now, how did you decide, like, when do I step in? When do I just allow them to fail? When do I like, how do you decide when to, like, push in and when to be like, okay, they're going to have to see, you know, Tiffany, that they overloaded themselves and they got too stressed out in April versus, we're talking about maybe lifelong consequences. Do you guys know what I'm, what I'm saying? Like, I feel like the stakes are so high. How did you decide when to push in and when to give space? [00:25:55] Speaker B: For me, I gave space when there was some other agency involved. Like if, especially with school. I mean, I am not going to be the one to lay down the consequence of what happens. I can guide and I can offer suggestions, but I'm not going to fight that battle a whole semester when ultimately the school is going to give the feedback that they really need. That's not. Then I can be. Then I can be that connected parent that they can come to without having the shame of feeling that they failed me, too. [00:26:24] Speaker C: Yeah, that's good, David. [00:26:28] Speaker D: Yeah. I think that shame piece is important that we're not. We're not pushing them into shame in any way in the choices that they're making. And sometimes, like, guarding against that means, like, helping them make the harder choice that they don't really want to make so that later they don't end up walking around in shame. And obviously the other big one would be like, is this life threatening then? You know, yeah, we need to help them understand this is life threatening and we can't go there. And even that, try to give them as much agency as they can. But at some point, like, no, we're just not going to let you, you know, hurt yourself or someone else like this. [00:27:05] Speaker A: Right, right. It's really good. Guys, thank you so much for joining us and for just walking through all this with us and braving the Internet there. We really appreciate it. Any, any kind of last words of advice for folks before we go today? [00:27:24] Speaker D: Teenagers have voices. Little babies do not. It's a lot easier to talk with the teenager. I mean, and you don't have to change their diapers. Not, not usually. I mean, there's, there's a lot of great benefits to having teens around into loving on teens and it just stepping in to that, quote, hard space. But I mean, every season has its differences and challenges, but we've absolutely always loved being able to care for the teenagers that have been in our home. [00:27:51] Speaker B: I know the first one that came to us was, you know, she wanted, she was ready to leave at age 18. She stayed with us till she was 19. And, you know, she didn't get pregnant while she was with us, which was a win. But we watched her use the nurturing, using that care that we were able to give her, practicing with our dog and then, you know, caring for kids in the nursery at church. And so just seeing her transition that into the rest of her life, that was beautiful to watch. And I think that that's the, that bust the myth that they could learn, they can, they can use it and they'll transfer to her children. [00:28:28] Speaker C: So, yeah, super encouraging to hear from you guys. And just your experience and, like, your real world knowledge of what this can look like I think just adds up a lot of depth to the conversation. So just really appreciate you guys being willing to go there, being willing to step into the conversation, because people do. People do just kind of say, hey, this isn't for teens. You know, for teens, we just need to be the military approach. And I hear you guys saying there's a different way forward and there's a lot of benefit to taking the time to do that. [00:28:58] Speaker B: Well, thank you for having us. We enjoyed it. [00:29:00] Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, again, just a big thank you to David and Tiffany for joining us. And, and we're just, I was saying to them kind of off air, like, we're in the middle of this season of parenting, and those myths creep in so easily into our, into our heads of, like, this is not working. Like, we just need control over the kid and what it is, and they touched on it. It's oftentimes just the fatigue of parenting. Get tired, you make concessions, and it's easy to feel like you're getting run over in this stage of parenting. And so hopefully this encouragement from the defaults and the different things talk about today would be helpful for you as well. [00:29:44] Speaker C: And with that, Becca McKay here to announce that the Empowered to Connect podcast is going to take a summer pause. We are excited about where we are headed in the future. If you are looking for some episodes to get you through the summer. The last two summers we have spent digging into the connecting practices. So if you will scroll, swipe, or search back to episode 87 or 143, you'll find the beginning of our two connecting practices series. Feel free to also browse our series on attachment, the stress responses, or a specific topic. We hope you'll keep listening through the summer. And we're excited. Stay tuned via social media for more updates on what's to come with the empowered to connect podcast. [00:30:30] Speaker A: All right, well, we do appreciate you tuning in. And again, thanks for listening. That is it for me, for everybody here at Empowered to Connect, for Kyle Wright, who edits, engineers, all of our audio. For Tad Jewett, the creator of the music behind the Empowered to Connect podcast. I'm JD Wilson, and thanks for listening.