[E207] The Healing Power of Art with Jill Stockburger

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the Empowered to Connect podcast where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families and our communities. We are so excited to have Jill Stockberger with us today to share with us the healing power of art. Jill, thank you so much for being on with us today. I would love for people to just kind of hear who you are and what it is that you do professionally. [00:00:34] Speaker B: Gotcha. Okay, so I'm Jill Stockburger, married, four kids. I have been with Memphis Family Connection center for six years. I'm a licensed professional counselor and then I have a specialization in the expressive arts therapy realm, meaning I work with movement, music, visual art, and creative writing. [00:00:59] Speaker A: Okay, and when you say that you work with those different kinds of arts, can you tell us a little bit about do you work with kids, parents, families? How do you do the work that you do? [00:01:10] Speaker B: Yes. So I work with kids of all ages and I take a neurodevelopmental approach with the arts. So as much of their story as I can get, then I can understand which art form will work best for those different time periods that they maybe were impacted by trauma or if they have neurodivergence in some way to connect different areas of the brain, get one area of the brain talking to another area. I also work with adults and then I also work with child and caregiver. The arts really facilitate that non verbal attachment. So I like to say on the counseling side, the arts provide different languages of expression, not just verbal. I can give a realm of different ways for people to connect in different languages. And then on. I overlap a lot. With occupational therapy. Yeah, with the arts. And so that's kind of the neuroscience piece that I really love. [00:02:13] Speaker A: And for people listening that are just having trouble visualizing like what you're talking about, I've seen you do it so expertly. Can you just kind of give a couple of literal art examples and kind of explain the science behind just like two or three different ways that you use what you know about a kiddo to choose the method and kind of how does that play out? [00:02:31] Speaker B: Sure. So when I'm with kind of that early developmental stage, say two to four, I'm really going to be working with movement and music in some ways. Right. Really getting a child curious about their sensory profile so they can regulate a little bit more. Often you hear in the occupational therapy world, interoception. Interoception is this deep core how we feel different things. So say a child with ADHD, they might feel things on a scale 0 to 10. Where neurotypical. 0 to 5. So learning to regulate is a skill that we work on a lot. And so the music, movement, things like that really can get them curious and understanding those sensations and picking up those cues. [00:03:21] Speaker A: For sure. For sure. And then if you think. If you're thinking about a kid a little older than that, what might you pick? [00:03:26] Speaker B: Yeah. So late elementary, middle school age, I'll probably be working more with the visual art therapy music too, especially on my middle schoolers who maybe not might not want to talk as much. I can usually plug in. It just looks a little different with music, what songs they're interested to, changing lyrics around, engaging that way with them. But the visual art therapy is really strong in that age group. I can. A child might come in if they're choosing colored pencils or very detailed or markers. I know they're wanting a high level of control. [00:04:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:09] Speaker B: If they're choosing paint or even tempra sticks, which tempura sticks are something that I overlap with that earlier age group a lot too. When they're needing what's called an effective release and emotional release. Watercolor, they don't have the words for emotions, but it hits their brain the same way and they get that release. [00:04:29] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Jill, have you always been interested in the arts or is this something that came to you later? Like, which came first, counseling or the arts for you? [00:04:38] Speaker B: Yeah, so, I mean, I can remember. I think it's always interesting to go back to what you enjoyed playing with. And I always found art as a way to connect with others and connect back with myself to stillness. Just my body being still doesn't work very well for me, but I find stillness when I'm creating. And you know, there's that saying that anxiety can't be where creativity is. [00:05:05] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. [00:05:06] Speaker B: And then I grew up riding horses too, and there's actually a. A pretty significant overlap of how we attune to one another through music and movement and art and that interaction with equine therapy, maybe my next life, I'll be an equine therapist. [00:05:22] Speaker A: That's amazing. I love that so much. When you think about working with kids and adults, like you said, who have experienced trauma, I just think art unlocks something because sometimes traditional talk therapy, there's just places where you can't go, whether it's because of age or memory or even just comfort level. And so I've really appreciated kind of just hearing your heart for art creativity. And I hear you talking, talking about. It's helping kids find that Regulation, it's finding that release. It's finding ways for them to, like, process through those challenging emotions that they don't have the words for yet. When you think about kind of the healing power of art, what is it about art that is so healing for our kids and for us? What are the different. Like, what's the science behind it or the art and science. Right. What makes it such a powerful tool for us to use? [00:06:14] Speaker B: Yeah. So it really is ancient wisdom. Right. If you look across all cultures, religions, ethnic practices, all of that, after significant traumas, whether it was environmental or warfare, people came together in rituals and they were music oriented. [00:06:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:38] Speaker B: Or drawing is a way to express and make meaning and connect to one another. So nervous systems were coming together to regulate one another. Right. On our body. I mean, think about after Covid, when you went to your first concert. [00:06:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:52] Speaker B: You know, I mean, you just got this feeling, right? [00:06:55] Speaker A: Yes. [00:06:55] Speaker B: It changed you. It's called entrainment, actually the technical term on the neuroscience level. But you attune to one another through that music and then the visual art. I mean, even going back to cave drawings. Right. It was a way for people to tell stories and what happened and make meaning. I mean, there's even going back to soldiers and PTSD and coming off the fields now, of course, we want to be home as quickly as we can, but it used to they would be on ships coming back, and so it might be weeks, and they would be telling stories and expressing it in all kinds of different ways. And sometimes in order to draw out the pain and make meaning, we need some beauty. And I think art infuses that. It offers a container. [00:07:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:43] Speaker B: That language. [00:07:44] Speaker A: Absolutely. And it also offers something you can share. Like I'm hearing you talk about. Our nervous systems are coming together and just this idea of community. So there's this idea I hear you kind of threading through about, hey, what does it mean? Whenever we share our story and someone else gets to witness it with us. So the soldiers on the ship or the kiddo in the therapy room, like being able to something and then witness it together. What is it about telling stories that provides healing? That might be a silly question, but that's. I'm wondering, what is it about telling stories? Why is that such a crucial part of the process? [00:08:24] Speaker B: Yeah. So, you know, we hear when you name something, it tames it. [00:08:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:29] Speaker B: It comes from the internal to external and outside and can be shared. And when it's shared, it doesn't feel like so much weight on us. It's not stuck And I think that's one thing I really do love about the arts. Or, like, I brought up equine. You know, I mean, there is. They begin a very gentle process of drawing that out. And how many people, especially in this day and age, do we feel isolated? Yeah. Kids, adults, so many of us. Because things are stuck inside us. [00:09:03] Speaker A: Absolutely. And you're just giving, like, productive or like you said, containers. You're giving places for those emotions to go. Right. Like, there's a little bit of activeness, I hear, in all of the ways you're describing visual arts and movement and even storytelling. Those are all very active processes. I know on our podcast, we talk a lot about the stress responses, kind of those fight, flight, freeze, fawn. So I wonder if you could help me a little bit think through. What do you do when a kiddo comes in with a little bit of that frozen stuck energy? How do you use the arts to kind of get them unstuck? Has that been something you've seen? [00:09:42] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. And the freeze response, I mean, I don't know a lot of people, it. It can feel like the most challenging. [00:09:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:50] Speaker B: You know, where do I start? Where do I start exactly? Oftentimes I'll ask if they want the caregiver to come back with them so that they're both back there. If the child wants that. Yeah. And then I have both the caregiver and child engage in art. [00:10:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:11] Speaker B: Or if the child doesn't want the caregiver back there, I start engaging with the art alongside, like, as a model, and I limit the choices. I might pull out something like model magic, which is a clay that doesn't stick to your hands. [00:10:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:24] Speaker B: So a lot of kids prefer that because it's just a little bit easier to work with and it's not as messy. So start with something simple like that, or offer maybe a high control with a marker, and try to get playing a little bit with, like, a game of Scribble Chase, which is where a caregiver or I would ask the child if they wanted to lead or follow. And then both markers hit the paper. [00:10:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:51] Speaker B: And it's 1, 2, 3, countdown. And you can see how fast maybe that child goes, how slow they go. Are they waiting on you? Yeah. Did they want to be the leader or follower? And then you can start having those conversations. [00:11:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:07] Speaker B: Or I might offer a watercolor. So just two or three options, depending when I'm thinking sensory, Just that brain base with that model magic. Maybe it's the limbic system I'm needing To tap in, which is one level up, and that's more the watercolor scribble chase. [00:11:22] Speaker A: Okay. And then if we're. So that's our frozen kiddos and we're trying to get them kind of unlocked, if we've got our fighters and they're kind of coming in with a lot of energy, how do you kind of. Ooh. Direct that energy or, like, guide that energy towards something? How do you do that? [00:11:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So my high energy or maybe that fight response, that's where I would. I usually put my body. This is where I start with movement. My body is lower than theirs. [00:11:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:51] Speaker B: To kind of calm down their nervous system, I take them off guard a little bit. You know, when that guard is up and high energy, I bring my body lower and calm. Speaking low, slow, and steady, I might mirror one little movement that they're doing on a very small level. If it's a large movement for them, I might do a small level. If they're jumping all over the place, I might do small jumps and get in rhythm with them. Right? [00:12:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:17] Speaker B: So then I've gotten the. The base. The brainstem. I've gotten online with them. It might be tossing a ball back and forth. [00:12:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:24] Speaker B: Anything that. I'm mirroring some of those movements and getting them online. Then I'll go to the limbic system, and we might do something like tearing paper for collage and just shredding things. You might do what I call feelings basketball, where we might scribble something out. We ask the scribble what it's feeling, and then write the feeling out, and then we can shred it and toss it in the trash can. [00:12:47] Speaker A: I love that kind of. That. Like, you keep saying it, but it's the. It's visual, it's active. It's like whole body. You're getting engaged with their whole self. [00:12:56] Speaker B: Whole self, whole brain engagement. That's so creative flow, what people call creative flow. And you probably, even, if you quote, unquote, don't see yourself an artist, which I hear a lot. And the thing with art therapy is it's low skill, high sensitivity. It's not about a skill set. It's about being sensitive to how the materials feel to you, what you feel when you engage with the material, what arises within you. So it's low skill, high sensitivity. So everyone can engage in art therapy, but it is. It is about creating those different languages, and in that creative flow, your whole brain is engaged. So everyone's experienced it in some way or another. [00:13:39] Speaker A: Yeah, man. That's really I thought it's like striking me, probably because of my personality. Our culture is so quick to judge us based on our product, like what we produce. So it's interesting that you're saying people come into art therapy and they say, I'm not good at art, versus you're saying we're all good at art. Art is just an expression. It's what we're. It's, it's. Yeah, I love that distinction. And I think it's. Yeah. I mean, you want to, like, you want to be embarrassed of your art if it doesn't look as good as someone else's. And so I, I can imagine in therapy you're doing a lot of reframing and helping people get started with that. Just kind of unlocking, hey, just tell me how it feels to hold this. Tell me how it feels to do that. [00:14:19] Speaker B: Yeah. And a start in layers. I mean, this is for at home, anyone whose child brings them anything. And this is a side note, this is such a fascinating study to me. And it was done in the United States and it was done a couple of places on the continent of Africa and domestic violence, homes, mother, child. And they did an art, an art group of the children. 100% of the children cross continents, wanted their mother to view their art. [00:14:49] Speaker A: Wow. [00:14:51] Speaker B: And then at home, we can start when we're viewing our child's art. Start in that top layer. Tell me about that color you chose. Then something else will come up. The layers will unfold. They'll tell you something else, something else. Just start, Just observe. [00:15:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. That's a hundred %. That's incredible. [00:15:10] Speaker B: 100%. Yes. [00:15:12] Speaker A: I think that mom, man, that highlights, I think, attachment in a huge way. How we're so wired to want our caregivers approval and even attention. Man, that's really interesting. I like that you're giving us kind of where to go. So as a caregiver, if your child's bringing you something, you can notice the color, you can ask them questions about it. Many of our listeners are parenting kiddos who've experienced significant adversity. And I think for me, with that, that there comes some fear, like, what if my child is drawing something that scares me? Or I'm not sure what to do with. What would your advice or thoughts be on if a kiddo is kind of processing a specific situation through art? Obviously, I think we would both say find professional support if that's happening. But what are some tips or starting places if a child is bringing something to a parent, maybe it happened outside of their Home or somewhere else, kind of. What can they do to help create felt safety in that kind of situation? [00:16:11] Speaker B: Right. So, yes, seeking professional help like you laid out, but to increase felt safety. It made me think, we all love Mr. Rogers, right? Everyone loves Mr. Rogers. [00:16:20] Speaker A: Yes. [00:16:21] Speaker B: And back in the day, one of the early dance movement therapists was invited on by Mr. Rogers, and she had a group, and some of the kids picked up swords and were pretending just air. Not at one another, but just the air. [00:16:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:37] Speaker B: We're, you know, doing battles. Right. And, you know, we're gonna kill this. And it got a lot of pushback. [00:16:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:47] Speaker B: But Fred Rogers came out and said, this is traumatic play. [00:16:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:51] Speaker B: Kids are learning. [00:16:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:54] Speaker B: To regulate themselves in different ways, and this is dramatic play. And they're learning this sense of what do. What am I want to fight for, what am I passionate about? All of those things. So he took a big, deep breath back. [00:17:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:07] Speaker B: And saw what this was actually all about. So I think when we get some of those scary images or that might trigger us kind of taking an exhale and starting at the top, like I said, just observe. What do you notice in it? Ask the child if that's what they're. What they're saying with it, you know. [00:17:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:28] Speaker B: Why did you choose this color? Why are they interacting this way? Whatever you see asking about it, and then see what they'll tell you. [00:17:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:37] Speaker B: Take that exhale with it a little bit, and then you can ask after maybe you've gotten some of the story, how would you change it? [00:17:46] Speaker A: I like that. [00:17:47] Speaker B: What would the next step be like. [00:17:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. [00:17:51] Speaker B: What would the next world look like? [00:17:54] Speaker A: I like. I feel like you're. You're kind of layering in here, starting where your kiddo is. So whether that's the, hey, what color did you choose? Or if it's the hey, why did you know? Why are they doing that? I like that idea because I think so often we want our kids to be a certain place or we want to be a certain place, but we can't necessarily skip steps. You know, we are where we are. So I like kind of just that gentle start where they are. What I know about you and what I hear coming through that is when you're asking those questions, you need to stay regulated yourself. Like, I hear that in your tone. You're talking about, take that exhale kind of that regulate yourself no matter what's happening. Kind of like Mr. Rogers did. He didn't get disregulated by the swords. He took that deep breath and Kind of saw it for what it was. That's really beautiful. If we've got folks listening and maybe they're curious about incorporating more art into their family life. Maybe it's something that they don't have access to a professional, but they know it's important. How would you encourage them to get started? And maybe like what are some of the different kinds of art you've mentioned? A few of them, but maybe what are some of the different options that they could. That they could grab onto? [00:19:06] Speaker B: Yeah. So a Brit, big proponent. When I first came to mfcc, the phrase was we try to offer real hope. [00:19:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:15] Speaker B: Tangible, practical steps. And I do think it's a dance between caregiver and child and what is going to keep us regulated. So going into someone's home, they might have a little art section with all these different materials set up. That might feel really overwhelming to you. [00:19:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:33] Speaker B: As a parent or a caregiver or a ton of messy paint or that might feel really dysregulating to you. Yeah. And so maybe you have a couple of different art materials out. You know, maybe you have an oil pastel or a tempera stick that's not tempera paint that offers that fluid and is it doesn't feel as messy to you. [00:19:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:56] Speaker B: Right. And then you have some crayons or colored pencils. Right. So you might have a paper bag where puppets are made. And then you get into the dramatic play. And I think it's always important we talk about with play therapy when we send maybe a homework assignment home is to take 15, 10 to 15 minutes a day. Even if you need to set a timer of child center play. We don't realize how that 10 or 15 minutes. So let's just start. Let's start with a small, you know, amount. 10 or 15 minutes of child center play is actually significant. And setting that timer might be what you need in order to take the step. [00:20:38] Speaker A: Can you describe for people listening who aren't. Who don't know necessarily what's the difference between child centered and adult directed play? Like you just mentioned that one. Can you kind of tell them what that would look like? [00:20:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So with a child led play, you're joining in. Say you have a child that's loving dump trucks in a sand tray. Right in sand. And they're playing with that. You're playing alongside that. You're following and they're leading with what they want to play and interacting and letting them invite you in. [00:21:10] Speaker A: You know, that's hard for some of our parents. It's really hard to like sit back and be like, okay, what is my kiddo doing? Maybe they're building Legos. Maybe they're listening to a certain music. Maybe they're playing with dump trucks. And so that child led is really joining them where they are and not trying to guide them to something else. Right. What would more of like the adult directed or like guided play? What might that look like for a family? [00:21:35] Speaker B: Yeah. So. And some kids might prefer that connection coming in with a structured play. Right. So that might be, you know, most people jump to thinking about board games or different games and that sort. Right. And that's where I might bring in the game of like say Scribble Chase that I was talking about earlier. I love a big piece of butcher paper, you know, and then you can put it all over and then you have that movement. Right. And even after Scribble Chase, after each does a side and each is a leader follower. And you can use tons of different art materials. It can be a colored pencil all the way to an oil pastel, but then you can start coloring in those scribbles and finding images. So that might be a highly structured. I mean, I think in the little years, art even comes in. Let's slow down for an afternoon snack. [00:22:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:31] Speaker B: And we do a little design with the afternoon snack. Nice. We might have raisins in the center and orange slices on the outside. You know, I love that. [00:22:41] Speaker A: I love that. [00:22:42] Speaker B: Just really practical things of making art, you know. And then we're also getting curious with, say you have a kid that's sensory defended or you know, a picky eater or any of those things. That's a huge step just to get curious around it. They might not put it in their mouth, but it's a big step that they're getting curious with foods that maybe they wouldn't have touched before. [00:23:06] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:23:07] Speaker B: So I think that's what the arts. Any of the things we're talking about. It's kind of a backdoor approach of opening up languages and connections. [00:23:18] Speaker A: I love that you highlighted that art is really language and it's that expression. Because many of our kids kind of struggle with verbal expressions like through words. Words when it comes to some of the things they've been through. And we don't even necessarily always need them to tell the story of the trauma over and over that can actually be re traumatizing. So we're providing a different way for them to process those things. Also take trauma out of it. Just as kids are learning and growing, not everything is Going to be mom. I felt dysregulated today because my friends didn't sit with me at lunch. Art is kind of like processing through that emotion, through dance or through music or through whatever it is. Like, I'm thinking of that middle schooler who's really drawn to the music that's kind of like angsty and mad, and it's their way of connecting with their internal world. So I love that framing of it as a language. You're giving them different languages to explore. [00:24:14] Speaker B: Exactly. And everything how you just were explaining it is connection. Right. So music therapy in your home, it's a dance party or that angsty, you know, I mean, or just putting on that music. I mean, I was joking with one of my teens and asking him to do something and just getting some pushback and some resistance. And I said, okay, I just turned Adele on the Sonos, which went through our house. Yeah. And which is not his favorite. He's a big music kid. That was not his favorite. And he got moving and we had a good laugh about it, you know. But he was also seen because he knows the music. I like the music. He doesn't like. [00:24:59] Speaker A: Yes. [00:25:00] Speaker B: All of those different things. So I think even a dance party or anything like that in your house, I mean, that's. That's music therapy right there. And when you were talking about, yes, we want our kids to name their feelings, yes, we want them to know their zones of regulation and talk about, I'm in the green zone, my body's calm and yellow zone. I'm a, you know, a little excited or anxious and red zone. But then when you were talking about the color of the language of telling a story with multiple layers or that's really connective. Right. You know, when you see a sunset and then you hear someone describe it or an event that someone has. Has experienced their life, and you hear all the description or how they explain someone that's really connecting. [00:25:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:49] Speaker B: It's full color, right? [00:25:51] Speaker A: Absolutely. And it's the multi layered, like you said. It's not. It's making me think of Bruce Perry talks about, we need to create a therapeutic web. So instead of just thinking about kids needing therapy for an hour in the therapy room, we want to think about all those little interactions with their teacher, with their parents, with their siblings, and how they're creating that therapeutic web. And I think art is a really beautiful way to be part of that web. Those little moments, those little connections, and together they can paint the full picture. I think that's really beautiful way to Think about it. [00:26:25] Speaker B: I feel like Bruce Perry really opened just his medical side verse and also the whole counseling and how he went about it. Really, this idea of that web and seeing how all of those rituals and environments and the arts, all of those different things heavily influence our biology. [00:26:47] Speaker A: Yeah, a hundred percent. It's all connected. And sometimes it's hard to remember that day to day. When you're talking, I'm actually thinking about. We spend so much time. I spend so much time, I'll speak for myself, worrying about technology and kind of where it's taking kids. And I think that some of those fears are valid. But what I want to say that you're unlocking for me is for a lot of our kids, making videos and telling stories and integrating music in is art for them. And so I wonder if I might have been missing some opportunities to connect with kids through technology. I'm just processing. When you're talking about art, I'm like, man, maybe I was missing. I wasn't thinking of that as art, but maybe it was for some of our older kiddos. [00:27:31] Speaker B: Right. So I do, I would say when you were talking about that, I was thinking on a small level, I was working with this little guy. Um, and just like so many of us out there maybe was fidgeting and picking, you know, and anxious coming out that way. And so it was drawing awareness to his body, helping him self regulate some of the other things. Maybe playing Legos or coloring or doing those other things. But then also I thought there's another way. We want multiple tools in our toolkit, Right? [00:28:04] Speaker A: Yes. [00:28:05] Speaker B: And so that was his mom or dad coming alongside of him and just touching his hand and massaging it in that moment for a little bit. So sometimes it was, hey, look what's going on with your body. Draw awareness. Going to choose a few different things another time. Is that co. Regulation of touch? Yeah. And massaging that hand without words. Yeah. Right. And just letting it release that way. And I think. So on the big level where you were saying with our teens, you know. Yes. Boundaries on technology, contracts, all of those different things. And also how are we stepping into those worlds with them? [00:28:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:47] Speaker B: And not leaving them alone in there. [00:28:49] Speaker A: Almost just like you said, if your kids playing with dump trucks, join them in the dump trucks. But I think I hadn't thought about it in terms of our teens. Like if they're doing the latest dance trend, join them in that and you know, not maybe do it with them if you want to make them laugh, but also just like be excited like the Way that a kid wants to show you their drawing when they're five. Maybe they want to show you their dance when they're 15. And maybe that's a similar serve and return interaction with our kiddos. Man, Jill, you're just a wealth of wisdom about art, about healing. As we kind of wrap up this conversation, I wonder if you could share kind of just where should families start if this is really new to them, if they're not quite sure, how can they get started with thinking about connecting in this way? What are a couple steps they could take? [00:29:42] Speaker B: Yeah. So an exhale first. Right? That big exhale. Yeah. And start with the curiosity. [00:29:49] Speaker A: Yeah, let's. [00:29:51] Speaker B: Let's be curious. Be curious with yourself and your child. Right. So what are your daily rhythms like and what can you incorporate there? Maybe you are a snack family, and that works. Maybe you are a movement music family. [00:30:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:12] Speaker B: And that works. Maybe you're a walk the dog family. Right. And there's some mirroring movement that can be done there. Maybe you're a family that loves to make a mess. [00:30:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:23] Speaker B: Right. And so maybe you do finger paint and do all of those things. Right. Maybe you're a family that that mess would feel really dysregulating for you and for those of us. So then you start with just a couple of different tools. Right. And for those that maybe have the child that is super messy, you know, and on a sensory scale is a huge sensory seeker. [00:30:46] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:47] Speaker B: And maybe, you know, I think they're building up that interoception or body awareness, you know, with the proprioceptive vestibular. So their bodies are all over the place, Right. Like little crash pads. [00:31:01] Speaker A: Right? Yes. [00:31:01] Speaker B: You know, maybe you mirror that a little bit, and then in the bathtub, you bring out some things that they can paint on the wall, you know? Yeah. [00:31:12] Speaker A: Contain. [00:31:12] Speaker B: Contain it. Contain the mess, you know? [00:31:16] Speaker A: I love that. [00:31:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. [00:31:18] Speaker A: Jill, thank you so much for sharing with us. I just always love hearing the way that you can connect our brains to some of these things. Dog walking and. And bathtub painting and all these different things. It doesn't seem connected to us always, but it's so connected, and it's so connected to relationships and attachment. So thank you for giving us some things to chew on, some ideas to process, and hopefully we can get. We can get creative with our kids. [00:31:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:46] Speaker A: Get curious and get creative. Thank you so much. [00:31:48] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:31:54] Speaker A: We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, the best way to support us going forward is to subscribe. 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