[E234] When Protection Becomes a Prison: Breaking Down the Wall Between Us with Sherry Varughese

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:04] Speaker B: To the Empowered to Connect podcast where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families and our communities. All right, I'm here with Sheri Varghese. I'm so excited to introduce you to her. She's a new friend of mine. And Sheri, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what brings you to this work that we're talking about today. [00:00:32] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks, Jesse. It's so good to be here with you. So, yeah, my name's Sherry. I'm from Philly originally. Actually, my husband. When I married my husband, we. I moved to New York and we've been there for over 20 years and we recently moved to Memphis in 2024. And so I'm a marriage and family therapist. I specialize in trauma informed systems therapy. And I'm attachment based. I do a lot of cultural competence work. I love that. I'm a systems and therapists, relational based therapist mostly because there is this sort of pastoral side of me with my husband's work that loves that. We were just created in the image of relationship. We were designed for relationship. And so much of relationships impact who we are. You know, we hurt in relationships, we heal in relationships. So that's some of the things that I'm just excited about. [00:01:33] Speaker B: I love that. When did you know you were interested in this kind of work? Just out of curiosity? I think when I was getting into child development in college, I was like, this stuff is so cool. I wonder what sparked your interest. [00:01:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I was always wired for some of that too. Just really interested in all of it. I also have my own story of a lot of religious trauma, abuse, racial hurt, and then that resulted in a lot of my own destructive strategies and behaviors. And so I've just experienced, experienced so much healing. I have such a desire for others to experience that. And so, yeah, that's kind of what has lead me into this work. [00:02:12] Speaker B: Thanks for sharing that. I think probably a lot of us identify with this kind of going back to things from our past and exploring those and even going into lines of work or in the ways that we build our families, kind of seeking to redo some things or right some wrongs or, you know, explore what would it look like to do this a different way. So I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah. All right, well, let's talk a little bit about this concept of the wall between us. I'll tell you how we talk about it here at Empowered to Connect. And then I would love for you to build on that, in the way that you talk about it with clients and just in your practicing. Sounds great. [00:02:58] Speaker A: Okay. [00:02:59] Speaker B: So when we teach the wall between us, we kind of talk about, especially with our own histories as caregivers, and sometimes that can expand to other things, like our sensory preferences and all kinds of, you know, things. Things that push our buttons. But a lot of times, if we'll dig back into the past, we realize that there is something connected to that from our history. So, for example, when I learned how to swim, I went to the ymca. My parents signed me up for a class. They had all the kids line up behind the. What is that thing called? The diving board. I'm like, my words are failing me this morning. And the way they taught us to swim, in my child memory, surely they did not actually do this, but in my child memory, they had us jump into the deep end. They told us they would catch us, and they didn't. We went under, the water came up sputtering, and then they were like, now swim to the shallow end. And that's my only memory of swimming lessons. And so, you know, fast forward whether I have that in mind or not. If I'm in the pool with my young kids, as I was, you know, when they were in their young ages, and they're in their little puddle jumpers or maybe they've just learned how to swim, I found myself snapping at them constantly, just really hypervigilant, really anxious, and it was like a different side of mom that's coming out in the pool. It was not fun to swim with me. It was not fun to go swimming with me. And it is my choice whether I'm going to bring that to awareness or not. Right. And so when we teach the wall between us, we talk a lot about, like, it is almost like we're building these little blocks of our histories that are becoming a wall where instead of seeing the child in front of us, we're seeing our own stuff. But we don't realize that that has nothing to do with our child. That that has everything to do with our stuff. And so I have loved this concept because it ends up really shaping kind of what we do next and bringing awareness to those things. And so I wanted to have this conversation with you about that. You and I were talking a little bit about this wall, and I want to hear your thoughts about it. [00:05:24] Speaker A: Yeah. And I love the way you framed that and even just gave imagery of what that. How that plays out, because. And I. And I love the imagery of the wall. That. That is so much of like what I would use as protective strategies or even armor sometimes, especially in my work with relationships that we put these. Because of these experiences that felt painful, we sort of build a wall or a protect. We put up an armor that wants to keep us safe and feel protected. And so, yeah, that just, it makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of reasons for it. And so I have a lot of compassion for that and I love how you said. And it helps us become aware of what's happening in the present. [00:06:17] Speaker B: I even appreciate the compassionate kind of mindset you have about it being protective. I would not have thought that snapping at my children was protective or tied into that history from, you know, that I'm either aware of or not thinking much about being kind of an armor I've built. But yeah, if I go back and I think about, you know, how I felt in that moment, the, the things that I learned to believe from that experience, it was very protective in nature and it can extend beyond swimming. You know, I can bring those, those beliefs into other areas as well. [00:06:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And on the surface, you know, the snapping doesn't look protective. It's in fact harmful. Right. And so, but I, what I mean is like we can see what is happening underneath and tend to how it might be impacting the people around us, even ourselves. So I tend to use a phrase of how our protections, though they once were useful and served us well, now kind of keep us stuck and they can become a prison. It becomes a way of being and doing things that doesn't always help ourselves or the people we're trying to stay connected with. [00:07:39] Speaker B: I think that could even be true of the kids in our lives too. If you think about kiddos, young ones who've experienced adversity and trauma in their early months and years, probably have their own protective strategies that, that also become kind of a wall between us too. [00:08:00] Speaker A: Absolutely. And you know, I, I mentioned the compassion because I think about, you know, we sent. We tend to see. And I'm an attachment based therapist, so I'll see it in these strategies of avoidant strategies or some of these anxious strategies, though they're both kind of rooted in anxiety. It's just the avoidant one looks like it's not, but the other one, anxious, can be very preoccupied and protesting and pursuing. And you're really trying to get that connection where you once maybe did it maybe because you felt like your parent wasn't paying attention to you, or if you tried harder, if you performed or you did certain things, that's what Made it so that you were seen and you felt connected. Or an avoidance strategy coming from maybe, you know, your parent would get very irritated when you did need help, or they would constantly yell at you because you weren't doing things right. And you started to internalize messages that I'm, you know, not good enough or don't be needy. And you would start to employ these strategies to withdraw and not be seen as being needy and pull in. And so that's where the compassion is. Like, oh, I get where that comes from. But now we start to do that with our own partners and with our kiddos. And then they start to employ their own strategies just like we did, to sort of feel safe. And so that's where this cycle, I usually use words of cycle or that generational thing starts to happen. [00:09:37] Speaker B: Let's kind of get in the weeds with us a little bit. Where might we see this kind of showing up in the way that we're parenting, these avoidant and anxious strategies? [00:09:46] Speaker A: And. [00:09:47] Speaker B: And how is that going to end up limiting us in our parenting? Actually, [00:09:53] Speaker A: yeah. Oh, man, that's so great. So having some backdrop about what that. Where it might come from helps us see, you know, right now, when my kiddo and I'm a mother of teenagers. So when they might be employing their own strategy, let's say, or just being a teenager, let's just be real. You know, there is a signal or a cue, maybe an eye roll, something that activates my inner child in a way. I'm just going to use that terminology. And then that inner reality becomes disregulated. I get activated. It's almost like I flashback to this past of feeling like that eye roll must mean like I'm being irritating or. And then these messages start to come up that I'm not enough or. And it's not all acute and it's not all in the moment. So you wouldn't even be able to name any of that in the moment. But we will respond. Like, emotions are fast and so the same way that your kiddo is feeling dysregulated about maybe whatever it might be, and they could have just had a bad day or someone, something lucky to them, or they are just feeling overwhelmed with their own emotion, emotions and hormones, and they are not quite equipped to respond in the best way. But because it is more on us and our responsibility to take the steps towards them. What does connection feel like in that moment? It also means that we need to maybe pay attention to what's happening with us so that we can figure out A way to regulate and come towards them in a way that's helpful. [00:11:46] Speaker B: This is the gargantuan task of parenting, right? The role that we have to be the bigger, stronger, kinder adult, when a lot of times we feel just like that teenager that's being activated and has, you know, had our own bad day or would love the grace to just fall apart. So, you know, I'm wondering how. I think you're painting this picture of how unintentionally we're blocking connection with our kids as we're kind of reacting in the moment versus actually seeing what's happening. I even think of this, and we describe it sometimes like shark music. Um, if you watch a scary movie, like, I think 80% of what makes a scary movie scary is the soundtrack in the background. You know, like, it's. If I can just mute the television when we're watching something scary, it's so much better for me. And I think a lot of times when we have this wall being built, when we are activated by our own stuff, we're getting that connection blocked. And we don't realize that we're hearing this music that nobody else is hearing. You. It's. I call it shark music because it's been likened to the music from Jaws, you know, so you're hearing that music in the background and you're activated by something, but the kid on the other side of that wall is not thinking about it at all. So how would you. Let's talk a little bit about, like, okay, if we're having blocked connection and we're reacting in the moment, you kind of talk about this cycle and it being generational. Like, how are kids going to respond to that and what. You know, like, if we're reacting in the moment from our places of protection instead of being truly present with our kiddo, what's gonna happen as fallout from that? [00:13:53] Speaker A: That's such a great question. And love the picture, just that imagery of the music, the shark music. And I'm gonna pin in that. I just. Because that ties into this, in that a, they are going to. To develop their own protective strategies of. To. To feel safe. We were wired to seek help and care and comfort when we're feeling activated and threatened and in danger. And so when they feel like they're not able to do that with us, they may learn to inward, they may learn to become codependent on another. And those are the things that we've also done right. So this is what we talk about these cycles. We're trying to. We want to start to interrupt that. And we can talk about that in a moment. But some of that is sort of seeing, okay, that makes sense that a, this is how I'm showing up. Our reactive cycles are starting to hit up against each other. Our protections are the ones now starting to bump up against each other instead of our more vulnerable selves, mine included, as well as my kiddos. And my kiddo doesn't even know how to do that. They just, I mean, they, they know that they want that from you sometimes don't even explicitly know that. It's just really deep down. And so they're just responding by what they see and sort of how they're wired to do that. And so for me, when you talked about the music, I'm an emotionally based therapist, so emotionally focused therapist, which doesn't mean that I just focus on emotions. It just helps see how emotions can be a doorway into understanding some of these systems. So sort of like signals of, oh, I'm getting really angry about that. What's that about? I'm feeling a lot of grief come up and I'm naming grief, but most people don't know that. They'll just feel really sad or really annoyed and just starting to identify and name that. In my field, we say that emotions are the music to relationships and that's what allows us to dance, whether it's like really in sync or we're stepping on each other's toes. And so I love the way you said the shark music because I felt like, yeah, if we could start to. And it takes a lot of work, you know, and it's not all going to happen in the moment, but if we learn that we're sort of having these reactive moments with each other, whether it's full on protest or we're all going into silent treatment or a little bit of both. Those are all reactive cycles bumping up against each other. And we don't want that. It doesn't feel good. We don't want that. Our kiddos don't want that. And so, yeah, those are things at least to start to become aware could be helpful in the next steps of what to do. [00:16:58] Speaker B: I really love that it's a quote from you now, emotions are the music to relationships. And yeah, we are teaching kids, even if they can't hear that shark music playing that we hear, they're dancing with us to it because they're going to be reacting to our reactions. It is the. That dance that we're doing. So I really appreciate just kind of walking that through and thinking we in the moment, whether we realize it or not, are teaching kids strategies for relating and for conflict and for meeting needs that you kind of gave those two paths. They're either going to learn to turn inward or they're going to learn to become codependent on another. How can we determine which one of those we are? Do you have any kind of advice for us as we are starting to think, like, well, how would I know if I'm teaching my kid one or the other? [00:17:57] Speaker A: Oh, that's such a great question. I feel like those are the things where we start to get curious. That's like a big thing, I hope for all of us is to move from judgment of ourselves and each other and get curious what is happening in my story that made this strategy necessary? And if we don't know what the strategy is, maybe start asking, am I. Do I tend to pull away when there is something escalating? Do I tend to protest and pursue, fight? Do I blame? Do I guard up? You know, those are things that can start to help us pay attention to what our strategy might be. And we can start asking some questions. What. When did I first need to put that into place? And if that feels like it's really hard and it could be, you know, and you can't. And we can't just journal on our own. You know, we can walk alongside a therapist or a safe community or a safe person even, and just start to be curious about that with each other and see if that's helps bring some of that to the forefront. I often say that these three Cs of compassion, curiosity, and change. And so I'm huge on us really understanding that there are very good reasons for some of the behaviors we employ. It doesn't mean it's good. There was a reason for it. And we can have compassion for ourselves and for our kiddos as they're trying to navigate. And I think that is what helps us all. Sort of helps me do that with my nervous system. It helps them do that too. Then we can start to have our brains online so we can start to get curious about these questions in a way that feels a little bit more regulated. And then we can maybe make some change or experience connection. Like, what is that one thing I can do to secure my connection within myself, if that. If there's some healing that needs to happen with my kiddo. So I think that's some of the things that would come to mind when you ask that question. [00:20:16] Speaker B: I do want to acknowledge. I think this can get really confusing. I know I Felt confused for years as I was starting to get curious about my own relational patterns. And even having gone to school and learned about human development and family systems and attachment patterns and all of that, I. To be able to apply that to myself was just next level. I didn't. It was. It's hard to see the things right up close to you, you know. And so I've shared on the podcast before, as we talk about attachment patterns or as we kind of share a little bit about attachment, that it took years before I realized I do I have some codependent tendencies in me, but it's more from like scanning and social monitoring whether the people around me are okay. And my own reaction for myself is to turn inward. My own reaction for myself is to make sure I'm okay so that the people around me are okay. And it took a long time for me to identify that, to really realize, like, whoa, I have this major people pleasing tendency in me. And I think I could have identified that. But to realize why and where did that come from? And that can feel so hard to unpack, especially, especially if you don't have any kind of specific traumatic experience that you're gonna tie it to. You know, I think for myself, I had a good relationship with both of my caregivers growing up, and so to pin some stuff back on that relationship felt uncomfortable, especially as somebody who's going to avoid a conflict or avoid uncomfortable feelings. But it took an outside person walking alongside me to. To point out, hey, you are not sitting with these sad parts of your story. You're saying things that turn them into happy endings or you're, you know, I was using the phrase but that's okay when I would talk about things, and I had never realized I did that until it was pointed out to me, and then I realized I did it all the time. So I just want to encourage you, if you're listening, this can be really hard to identify in ourselves, and it can get very mixed up. Like, I thought. I remember thinking, like, well, I do have some codependent tendencies. So which one am I? Do I turn inward or do I. Do I turn to others? And I think it can be really hard as we're trying to unpack that for ourselves. [00:23:01] Speaker A: And I just love that you named that Jesse, because I think that is. I feel that so much for so many. When we start to walk into this, it's like, whoa, this is just so much. And I can't. I can't even go back there, let alone, how do I figure all that out? In real time when I'm with my kiddo or with my partner. And so sometimes even for me, when I'm typically not in my teaching about it, I would try to resist using codependent or things like that because it feels very labelly, and those are sort of like the names we use to help describe the actions. But there is just so much compassion. It feels risky to take that step. And it doesn't necessarily mean it's all because of our parents. It's also just because of experiences and we've. [00:23:54] Speaker B: That we're wired in our personalities and [00:23:57] Speaker A: our personalities, the ways that we, you know, so all of sensitivities. Yeah, Right. So there's not a lot of necessarily putting blame on. It's more just having a posture of, yeah, this makes a lot of sense why we do this, and what could we do that's different? Because that might not be happening right now. We may not be experiencing that kind of hurt in the moment like that we once did. Just trying to start to see it in a different way. [00:24:25] Speaker B: Sheri I'm imagining caregivers or people who are with children regularly thinking, like, I don't have time for this kind of stuff. I am in it with kids. Like, I'm dealing with escalated behaviors. You know, I'm in the thick of parenting or teaching or whatever kind of helping profession you have. Let's talk a little bit about why doing this work is worth it and why it is important, even if we have other things going on, especially if we're in a difficult season of parenting or caregiving. [00:25:06] Speaker A: Yeah, it's especially important because of that. And I will say that I hold that life is really hard. You know, I just. We're not expected to have it all figured out by the end of the night. And even when we do learn, I'm so equipped. I have all the tools, and I'm still engaging in this process every day. And so for me, even this, like, idea of mercies are new every morning, that kind of concept. It's like, I do definitely have to wake up and be like, okay, what can. How can I be a person of love today to my kiddos, those. To my partner, to people I meet? How can they experience that they are loved? And then by the end of the night, I'm confessing the ways that didn't happen? And also, what could I do differently for the next day? And we. And we do it again. And so there's just a lot of compassion in that, but also wanting to take steps towards corrective and new Experiences, because that's how we break these generational cycles. That's how we can interrupt the reactivity cycles that we, not for nothing, we feel miserable in. And it. And it goes against the way we were wired. And so it doesn't feel good and it isn't safe, and it. And it. And we don't want to stay there. And so for me, it's always sort of like, let's celebrate those little wins. Where did we experience rupture? Where did we come and make some repair? [00:26:39] Speaker B: I like that I am thinking about even just in my own life. It was the season that felt most intense, most explosive, most escalated behavior happening in my home that pushed me to realize that I was contributing to those patterns of relating into the cycles that were happening. Because if a kid's going big and then I'm avoiding and I'm dismissing, guess what is happening to that behavior? It's going bigger. And it wasn't de. Escalating behavior like I thought it would. And so I think even. Even in that season when I felt stretched to the max doing that work, like you said, Sherry, it was necessary because it was the only way that I can contribute to interrupting those cycles or breaking that pattern or making a change. I love that you said the word corrective. Yeah. Like we're trying to correct in the moment, we're trying to correct behavior, but often the place where we need to start is with us, and that can be really difficult. But it's worth it. And it's worth it for you, too. I want to encourage you adults, as you're listening, you deserve understanding yourself and your story and why you are the way you are. We all deserve that for ourselves. And it sets our kids up to know that they're worthy of that, too, to be able to make sense of the way they act and the way they relate and the parts of their stories that feel confusing or even sad. [00:28:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I fully agree with that. I think if we can learn to feel confident in that we are accepted and belong and matter and are important and are loved, that will be what naturally starts to pour out of us with our kiddos. [00:28:42] Speaker B: Yeah, it sounds too good to be true, but I think that it actually is true. I think I've lived some of that truth myself. Maybe you have, too, Sherry. [00:28:50] Speaker A: Yeah, same. I agree. [00:28:53] Speaker B: Okay, so let's say we start kind of getting curious about what's happening inside of us and why it might be happening. Maybe we've even pulled in some people to help us with that. How are we going to know what healing starts to look like. You know, we're. I appreciated that you said you have all these tools and strategies. I very much identified with that. And yet you're on this journey, and so am I. Like, this is a daily process for us, but how do we know that we're growing? How do we know that change actually is happening as part of those Cs that you mentioned? Yeah. [00:29:32] Speaker A: I think if we can start to sense even just any of the small things I say, small wins. Right. You just notice that you're able to catch yourself in the moment, celebrate that that is a big deal. From. Not from just letting it just happen. If. If the next step is being able to input a different way of doing something, celebrate that I'm huge on. Celebrate the big wins. Because neurologically we are doing something to thicken a new way of doing some. You know, we're being. We're. We are celebrating and telling our brains, yes, that was the right way to do it. We can do that again. How did you do that? You could do that again? The same way that I would want to talk to my kiddo. Like, we can turn inward and almost be saying that to ourselves, to our inner child, maybe even picturing the one who made us, saying that to us. And so I feel like some of that is what can help, you know, create those corrective experiences. It's all a little different the way that you might see it. So I always see it's like the way you can get into a car. Maybe it's through the door or the window or. I don't know. There's just. If you feel it in your body or if you notice something, oh, they reacted to me differently, or there was a response, or you were able to summon the courage to go and do that sort of rupture and repair, apologize to your kiddo and allow for some repaired relationship to happen. Those are some wins that we can definitely celebrate because that will be a corrective experience to help build on a new one. Or the image of taking that brick down from the wall that we started putting up between us. Right. [00:31:23] Speaker B: Even I'm hearing the word noticing coming up a lot. And that that in itself is a win. That we can celebrate that as we begin to notice, like, there is a brick there, like, that one's mine. That is huge. That's huge for us to even see that we're not seeing our child. We're seeing that brick instead. [00:31:45] Speaker A: Yes. I love that. I love that so much. [00:31:50] Speaker B: I know from my own experience some of that Meant maybe not with my 3 year old or my 6 year old, but in the context of maybe my safe adult relationships. Just naming vulnerably when I was kind of mid process of noticing and just saying I'm stuck. I see this thing. I don't really know what my other option is, but I just started naming it out loud. You know, I'd be sitting discussing something with my husband Nick, and he would say something and I would be like, ah, I'm stuck. I know I'm not supposed to fix this for you, but I don't know what the other option is. And just putting that as a placeholder in our discussion, even with my kids, now that they're older teenagers, sometimes I'll say I feel really mad and it's really hard to listen to what you're saying because I'm thinking about something from when I was a teenager just to put it in as a placeholder to give me some extra time to like figure out how I'm going to, how I'm going to make my way through that conversation. [00:32:59] Speaker A: And your. And you're modeling how to show up authentically with each other. [00:33:04] Speaker B: If nothing else. I'm very good at modeling authentically. My kids, My kids know the only way is the real way because I'm not very good at putting on appearances. But yeah, that's the flip side. It can be a good thing. Well, yeah, yeah, I think this can be really difficult. But as we realize that we are imprisoned more than we are protected by these strategies, kind of noticing and finding our way out from that wall we've built around us, man, that's such a huge thing. I wonder, as you work with families in doing this, what gives you the most hope? [00:33:50] Speaker A: I think it would be when there are some of those corrective experiences happening and that especially, okay, if I'm, if I'm working with a couple especially, I can see it because they both come in and I'm seeing their inner childs and I'm sort of tending to both of those at the same time. But it's doing something where they are starting to see their partner's inner child as well. And that's that vulnerable space that we're a little bit afraid of showing or we don't know how to show. And so when, when they are able to start doing that and they start to have these new cycles that are not reactive. I mean, it wasn't from that reactivity. And it's like, oh, with this intentional meeting each other in that. That just brings so much hope. For me to see it, but for them to start experiencing it, and they're experiencing it. It's experiential. It's not just in the. We talk about how we could do that, you know, and that's kind of the same with our kiddos just being able to start to see that and really giving patients that this will be a journey with them because they are still being formed, and that is good and right. And so as they start to venture out, you know, the experiment that was done for attachment bas learning where the kiddo is in the room with the parent, and they're right next to them and doing the playing, and they start to venture out and play a little bit, but they look back to see if their parents there, then they still kind of keep going. At some point, they're with another little baby and toddler, and then you could leave and come back. But they feel safe and secure because they know their needs are going to be met and they are not going to be abandoned and they won't be rejected. I mean, that's like the goal. And so if we can see that in line with. As our kiddos are developing and we are sort of continuing to grow in our own rupture repair. Rupture repair of those relationships, I think that's. That's where we would. We want to go. And that's the hope that it gives to me. [00:35:54] Speaker B: That's good. And I think it's important to remember for those of us who have had children placed in our homes through adoption or foster care at different ages, that sometimes that building of secure attachment is gonna feel funny to us, that our kids are coming back and checking in with us when we think they should be old enough to do something without needing assurance or support or. You know, But I think, you know, I was joking with Sherry before we got on this episode about calls from the nurse's office at school. And sometimes I'm like, okay, you know, we've had enough of these through the ages and stages. But if I think about it a different way, that is my kiddo getting assurance from safe adults. That is my kiddo checking in to make sure they're okay. And if we can see things through that lens, then we realize we're actually setting them up for the best path of independence and autonomy. [00:36:59] Speaker A: Yes. I love that. [00:37:01] Speaker B: Yeah, it's hard to think about it in the moment, right? But. But to realize, oh, man, they are growing. [00:37:09] Speaker A: They. [00:37:11] Speaker B: We don't have to be imprisoned by these protective strategies of tamping everything down or. Or just you know, pursuing and getting entangled in somebody else in order to make sure our needs get met. [00:37:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, but we can. And we have agency to slow down that shark music. You know, we can slow it down. We, we really can. It doesn't feel like we can, but we, we are able to employ a breathing or mindfulness or taking a break saying, I really want to finish this conversation and I think it'd be good if we both took a five minute break and come back because we're not abandoning each other and we are in this and at the same time, we both can benefit from that. A breather, you know, or whatever it might be, but we can slow it down and start to. Yeah. Approach each other with a renewed way of being. [00:38:12] Speaker B: What that is a message of hope for all kinds of relationships we have in our lives. Those, those cycles, those protective strategies, they infiltrate every relationship we have. Right. Adult spouses, friends, partners, co workers and, and then in our caregiving relationships too. So being able to see that, changing that, that's exciting. That, yeah, we, we have this unique ability as humans to change our whole live long lives. [00:38:47] Speaker A: It's incredible. [00:38:50] Speaker B: All right, what do you want parents to take away from this episode as. As we're finishing up? [00:38:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like I want parents to know that, that they are loved, that they can know and learn that even if their bodies and their brains and everything else may tell them something different and in that learning that they are securely attached and loved, they can live that out too. We often hear hurt people, hurt people. I really feel like those that have been healed or experienced healing can also bring healing to others. And so we get this opportunity as parents to do that and our kiddos can reflect that as they get older and they have families of their own. [00:39:48] Speaker B: That sounds like a lovely cycle then to bring into future generations. I love that picture. Thank you for being with us today, Sheri. I really appreciate your wisdom and it's been lovely to talk about these patterns with you. [00:40:03] Speaker A: I agree. Thanks, Jesse. [00:40:09] Speaker B: We hope you enjoyed the episode. If you're interested in learning more, head to empoweredtoconnect.org for our library of resources. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at etc, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empowered to Connect podcast. In the meantime, let's hold on to hope together.