[E197] Crying, and foot stomps, and glares, oh my!

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Empowered to connect podcast, where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families, and our communities. [00:00:18] Speaker B: Hey, everyone, this is Jesse Farris with empowered to connect. And I'm here with my friends, Becca McKay and Tona Ottinger. Say hey, guys. [00:00:26] Speaker C: Hi, guys. Hi, guys. [00:00:30] Speaker B: And we have been talking, we want to talk today about this idea that we all have feelings. That's a pretty basic piece of knowledge, right? And when we all bring our feelings into a room in a family, how do we make space for those feelings? This question is kind of born out of this idea, these conversations we've been having with parents recently about, if I do that, then my kid's going to be upset, or if I make this decision or remind them of their end of the bargain for this, then they're going to feel disappointed or they might feel mad. And we want to pull that apart a little bit. I know that we all have trouble when our kids melt down, or especially in the younger years with tantrums or the older years with disrespect. How do we make space for our kids to express their feelings while scaffolding them towards expressing those feelings in an emotionally healthy way? Does that make sense? [00:01:34] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So this is an easy answer. So I think I can, like, give one quick little line and then we can just be done with this episode, right? And that is like, oh, gracious sakes. So that's just not the case. It's so nuanced and so complex. The very first thing that comes to my mind, in my heart when I think about this idea of, like, giving our kids room to be feeling and emotional beings is as adults, when we interact with kiddos, that maybe in a. Maybe an alerted space or maybe some of their behavior is not something that maybe would have been okay for us when we were young, or isn't the way we do it, or wasn't allowed in our house, or maybe isn't even what you thought would be allowed when you were thinking up being a parent or being in a family setting. Or maybe you're an educator and you wouldn't run a classroom this way. It's this idea of, like, what's acceptable, like, what were your expectations and then what was expected of you? How have you brought that into the interaction? And then what are your expectations of what kids should and shouldn't do with feelings? And that is very complex, right? There's so much in just that one concept and idea. Becca, what comes to mind for you? [00:02:56] Speaker D: Okay, you guys, know, I just flew to California and back, and when you were talking, Jesse, the first thing that came to my mind was, we flew with an airline, and there was a problem with, like, the printing of the bag tag thing. And so everybody that was checking in at the kiosk was having to go to this very long, like, for special concerns line. And so when you were talking about this idea of how can kids express their feelings, I immediately was like, kids and adults and workers and participants. And so I'm thinking about this line that I was in and how all the people in the line were extremely annoyed. Like, you should be able to walk in, click the button, and go drop off your bag, and go to TSA, and you're already, like, mentally preparing for, like, I have to take my shoes off, and they're gonna make me pull the ipod out of the bag, and, like, you're already annoyed. And so just in the span of, like, you know, I don't know, the 45 minutes that we were in that line, I saw the huge scope of people that were taking it, like, positive. Like, it's okay. We got plenty of time. People that were, like, our flights in ten minutes. Please let us to the front. We're panicking. I saw kids crying. I saw kids laughing. I saw parents yelling, cussing, and fussing. I saw kids yelling and cussing and fussing. And so it's just this, like, picture of, okay, that is a big inconvenience. It's really frustrating for everyone involved, including the staff one of the staff members made to my husband. And I laugh because, you know, it's like, four people working. And as there's an open spot, it's like, whenever you're ordering at Chick fil A, right? Like, you see an open spot, you walk up to it. So this lady walked up to it, and the worker said, 'I did not tell you to come over here.' And we were like, oh, she's feeling dysregulated. So she, like, the lady had to walk back to the line and then wait for someone to say, next, please. And so that's just an example that comes to my mind from, like, literally this week of when we experience something, we all have feelings and emotions. Sometimes the standards that we have for kids are even higher than the standards that we hold our own selves to as adults whenever we experience frustration. [00:05:00] Speaker C: Yep. [00:05:00] Speaker D: So what does it look like to be realistic about, what's the line like? You know, is it appropriate to start cussing out a worker? I don't think so. In my values and my you know what? Like, I have, like, a line of, like, what I feel like is appropriate or nothing. Other people have different lines and different expectations. But first, can we just acknowledge that, like, people have big feelings, adults can't. Everybody in between. [00:05:24] Speaker C: Right? [00:05:26] Speaker B: I love that point you're making, Becca, that often we have higher standards for our kids than we have for ourselves. And, like, okay, let's give. Let's give ourselves the benefit of the doubt. I know. That comes from, like, we want our kids to be better than we are, right? We want our kids to have it better than we had it. We want them to be better people than we are. Like, we desire the very best for our kids. Right? But I was even thinking about it as I was introducing the topic, because I took my kids grocery shopping this morning, and I feel like that's all I need to say about that. [00:05:59] Speaker C: Right. [00:06:00] Speaker B: But I will add that I felt grumpy. Like, I went to bed late last night out of my own poor choices. Revenge. Procrastination. Anyone, if anyone else does that. [00:06:10] Speaker C: Yep. [00:06:11] Speaker B: So, um, I took my time, and then I paid for it dearly. This morning, I was feeling so grumpy, and I was thinking about, like, in. In my family, you're allowed to tell other people, even if you're the grown up. Like, 'I feel really grumpy today. I'm very irritable.' And, like, we try and work with each other in my family when it works like that. And, like, the kids are like, you know what that means is, like, let's be a little extra sensitive towards this person today. [00:06:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:06:40] Speaker B: And I was struggling with it because it was like, am I allowed to ask that as a parent, or is that inappropriate? You know, my kids aren't responsible for my feelings. My kids, you know, like, I'm the grown up. I need to be bigger, stronger, safer, braver, all of those things, right? And I want to pave the way of showing them, like, hey, it's okay to have a bad day. It's okay to feel off. And it also challenges me in thinking, like, are my kids allowed to have an off day? Like, what do we do when our kids are having a bad day? We did a book when our kids were young called the no, no no day, and we love that book. So we'll refer to it sometimes of, like, this is my no, no no day. But a lot of times, especially when our kids are younger and not as. Well, not as good at communicating with us, like, how do we allow them to express their feelings or have an off day, you know, I don't know. How do you guys handle that, even. [00:07:42] Speaker D: An off moment in a good day? Like, yeah, you know, like, you can be having the best day, and then they can have a big feeling and be like, well, this whole day was terrible. And, like, you can either take that super personal and, like, make that really the battle, or you can go, they're probably pretty dysregulated. I wonder when the last time was that they had a snack. Like, they're hungry, they're tired. It's been a big day. Like, so sometimes it's an off day, and other times it's just within a day. These, like, roller coaster moments that happen all throughout the day. And just had that mindset of, am I taking this as you're ungrateful and disobedient and disrespectful, or am I taking it as you're disregulated? And so that, you know, what do I do with that? How do I step towards you? [00:08:24] Speaker C: Way back in the early beginning of this whole connected parenting journey for Mo and I, I think feelings were the. And maybe the range of them that was happening in our. Across our family system. So it was like, kids and parents and then Mo and I and all of these feelings and thoughts and disappointments and how they were colliding and mixing together and creating, you know, maybe not the most emotionally safe spaces for one another. Like, I think that that was actually part of our guide, that something needed to shift and change, because we were coming from a mindset that had a whole lot of thoughts and perceptions and conceptions about what feelings are and what they are nothing and how much room they should have in a family or in a relationship. And so it's interesting that this is the conversation and topic for today, because it feels like an origin conversation and topic for me and my own parenting journey. It was one of the very first, if you think about it, like, connected parenting, like an onion with layers. This idea of feelings and how acceptable are they? As an Ottinger, how much leverage and room do you have as an Ottinger parent, adult spouse, and child to have a feeling and then react in that feeling? Because most often, our feelings are connected to what we would classify as, like, reactions. It isn't until you can, you know, somewhat practice the pauses we talk about or regulate or find some moment of calm that you can respond. Typically, they're connected to some sort of behavioral reaction, and then that reaction is causing a reaction in someone else, and then, therefore, the relationship is having a moment of stress and tension. So I don't mean to make that be, like, a huge theory idea, but I do think it's important for us to think about what role is my mindset as a parent or caregiver or adult playing the way this whole feelings thing is going down so we could talk about that. Like, what does it look like to go back and be like, what do I think about feelings and the role that they play in a family unit? You know? And then, you know, how is that coming out in my relationship with my kids? Maybe in positive and maybe not so positive, maybe even harmful ways. So that was, like, one of our very first woo hoo. We have some. Maybe recalibrating is a word I would use around feelings, and maybe some of what mo and I thought based on our own history and past, based on our families of origin, based on the little subculture of social engagement that we were parenting our peers and people that were influencing our thoughts and feelings about what kids should and shouldn't do when they feel a feeling, you know? So it was a lot of work. How about that? 24 years in the making, I think. [00:11:32] Speaker B: I've learned so much from you and Mo, Tona, of just that we all can grow in this area. And if I were to think of this as an onion in my own life and in my own family development, learning how to feel feelings has been such a journey for me. And I thought I was so adept at talking about feelings, and I was pretty proficient in naming feelings, but when it came down to actually feeling my own feelings and allowing myself to sit with them non judgmentally, um, and maybe even more difficult. I don't know. It would be a toss up whether it's more difficult to be non judgmental and sit with my own feelings or to sit with somebody else's uncomfortable feelings. [00:12:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:12:21] Speaker B: Um, even as we were setting up the podcast today, like, we were having. [00:12:25] Speaker C: Trouble with having a few technical difficulties. [00:12:27] Speaker B: I was joking with us, right, of, like, it's a. It's okay if you want to cry about this, Becca. You know? [00:12:33] Speaker C: That's right. That's right. Who wants to stomp their feet right now? [00:12:37] Speaker B: I think that's why I notice it in other parents of, like, I really identify in my very gut heart self with, like, but my kids kind of be disappointed, right? And it's like. And, you know, like, part of parenting, part of growing up, part of scaffolding our kids towards being an adulthood is like, yeah, disappointment is a feeling that we feel maybe at least once a day, you know, like, what do we do when we feel disappointed. My kid's gonna feel mad if I say that or do that. Like, and how will we be present to their feeling of anger? And how is my kid allowed to feel angry in my family? Like, if in my family, I don't let my kid yell, I don't let my kid stomp their foot, I don't let my kid roll their eyes, or, like, as Becca was saying, the cussing and fussing, like, well, what is an appropriate way to express anger? And I think we figure out how to do that as individuals. We have to figure out how to do that with the adult relationships in our lives, right? [00:13:47] Speaker C: Yep. [00:13:48] Speaker B: And we're finding a way forward in our families and parenting with our kids. You know, that it's just really, that's really hard for me. And to me, it all comes back to, like, how I feel about that, which is usually tied in with my attachment style. Right. And all that stuff that was baked. [00:14:05] Speaker D: In, and there's just no one size fits all. So when you're talking about yourself and how you process feelings, Jesse, I, like, from the moment I can remember, have been the most sensitive. Like, anything can make me cry. Like, from when I was little. And I feel like what I learned as a kid was, like, you're too sensitive. Don't do that. But it's, like, also what makes me a good listener and a good friend and caring about other people's feelings. And so I've had to learn how to, like, embrace my feelings as I've gotten older without letting them, like, dictate everything, you know, my beliefs or, like, without letting them have so much power over me that it's just impossible to take a step forward. And then you think about, like, there was four of us in my family, and so my parents parented us, and we're pretty close together, and they had four very different expressions and ways of feeling feelings. Like, my siblings were not as sensitive as I was, and so it was different. Like, so just for parents to hear, like, there's not one way that a whole family is going to experience feelings or, like, need to express them or process them, and that's okay. Like, it's okay that it looks different with different relationships, but even today, like, it's hard. I think we just have to learn what is the way forward. You know, for me, when I'm feeling disappointed, what is the way forward that helps me doesn't dismiss, but also doesn't get entangled using those attachment language words, what is okay for the kids in our care? And I think it's a process and it's a journey. But I feel like, yeah, when you were talking about your own onion layer, I was just processing my own self and how, like, man, I remember when I was little being told, quit crying. Quit crying. Not just by my parents. My parents loved me. They gave me lots of hugs and like soothed me and all the things. But just in general, those like subtle. [00:15:53] Speaker C: Shaming messages and society and your teachers. [00:15:57] Speaker D: And the other kids. And so there is a message in culture that's like, just get on with it. Just move on. Like whether it's a, you're too excited, it's not always a sad or mad feeling. Sometimes it's you're doing too much. Like, you need to chill out. Like you're, you're making other people uncomfortable. And so just, yeah, what, what's the appropriate way to express big feelings as a kid, as an adult, as a parent, as a kid? Like, how does that look in our different families? And I just love the idea that it's connected to our attachment, that it's unique to us and that it's a scaffolded process. Those are things you've said, Jesse, throughout. Like it's, it's a journey of just taking those little steps and like, what is the okay way for kids to express that they're mad? In the Faris house. In the Ottinger house. In the McKay house. In your house? [00:16:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:16:41] Speaker B: I'm curious, guys. What is your, what's your knee jerk reaction when a kid is having a big feeling that doesn't feel great to you? What's your knee jerk reaction? And what, what do you guys do? It doesn't even have to be a kid. It could be just a person in your life. What do you do to kind of support yourself, to show up and be present for that person? [00:17:05] Speaker C: That's a great question, Jesse. It's interesting because I still feel like I go back to those early days of like we put feelings charts in our kitchen on the wall and found myself being the one that was most often looking at them, trying to discover what was going on in me because, so it harks back to your question of like, when, when my kids had a big feeling or I was trying to find my way through, like what does it mean to reset and like actually let a kid have a feeling? What's a respectful and appropriate amount of behavior connected to a feeling? These are big parenting philosophies. These are not simple things to process. So I found myself staring at the board going, oh, I think that my knee jerk is anger. And we had a whole chart that was just everything that anger masks, you know? So then I was like, okay, next question is, what's. Where's the anger coming from? Yeah. And then most often it was then, and I'm sure it is still very much now, connected to some unmet expectation. So my knee jerk is probably to control or manage the moment somehow. Probably different for different kids, different for different feelings, fix it, support, nurture, move along. Like, I'm sure I'm wanting to show up with, like, a lot of managerial support in positive and maybe not so positive ways. So probably to get things moving and back on track, you know? So just, like, hanging out and, like, taking a deep breath and sitting and being, like, really, really still is a challenge for me, but it is sometimes what's needed. Like, you sometimes don't need to push and do the most to help a kid that's having a feeling. Sometimes they need you to do the least, you know? So I have a hard time doing the least. I'm very good at doing the most. So that's my answer. [00:19:06] Speaker D: That's good. Tana? I think my knee jerk, I think it depends on the feeling. Like, I think I have more. I'm more. Okay. Like, if a kid is having a big feeling that's like, I'm really excited. I can, like, see the joy in it, even if it's annoying. Like, it doesn't really bug me. But if they're having a big feeling that's, like, sad, then it's really hard for me not to get sad. Like, it's hard for me not to over identify and jump right on that emotional rollercoaster and be like, I'm sad with you. Like, like, too much to where I'm not co regulating anymore. I'm just, like, riding the emotional train. Yeah, like, let's go versus, like, mad feelings. My knee jerk is more, like, to get super. Probably just from working where I've worked and being a social worker. Like, I get very much into de escalate, calm, cool and collected. What do I need to do here to get you back down? [00:19:56] Speaker C: Like, it's going to, like, your logic brain. [00:19:58] Speaker D: Yeah, I go into very, like, super left brain. Yeah, like, super calm. How am I, like, going to tread lightly and make this, you know, help soothe this kiddo or whatever it is with kids especially? So I think my knee jerk is different depending on the thing. But I think I've grown a lot because I think my knee jerk with kids, if I'm thinking about, like, if you're asking a kid to do something, and their response is, let's say, the eye rolling, the whining, the tantrum, the stomp in the feet, those types of things that can be really frustrating or can really push your buttons. As an adult, those things used to bug me a lot more because I was not allowed as a kid to be mad or upset by a directive given by not just my parents, but any adult. Like, that was a no no. It was you obey period. So whenever I then work, started working with kids, I was like, wait, not every kid operates like this. Like, what is like. No, you don't. [00:20:51] Speaker C: There is some other internal operating system. [00:20:53] Speaker D: Yeah. What this is like, what is this iOS? I don't know it. And so I think I've grown a lot because I. Because of being exposed to empowered to connect principles even before I worked here. Like, learning that there's other things that are driving behaviors. Like, I think I used to just see that as disobedient, defiant behavior. And I need to make you stop and tell you what's what and give you a lecture or what, take control, whatever it is. So I feel like that one for me has changed a lot over the last, you know, ten years of just being exposed to this kind of thinking, because it. It really is that mindset shift. It's okay. I'm asking you to do something hard. For example, when I was working in a school, like a math worksheet, if you move towards the math worksheet and you're rolling your eyes and you're grumbling under your breath, but you're moving towards the math worksheet, there's something to praise there. Like, there's something we can build off of. There's some, like, good momentum there. Or my previous self, I would be like, you can try that again without the grumbling, sir. Like, that was my, like, programming. So I had to update my iOS to, like, totally be able to engage in a different way when we're thinking about those types of feelings. [00:22:02] Speaker C: Yeah. Jessie, I'm curious about this for you. How would you answer that question? [00:22:06] Speaker B: Oh, I think it was such a game changer for me, y'all. When I learned I had always been a little confused about what my attachment style default might have been, and when I learned that it was avoidant dismissive, because I want to avoid people's emotions, including my own, the way that was coming, I had always viewed avoidant dismissive attachment style as, like, robotic, cold, unfeeling, unwilling to talk about emotions. And I was like, well, that's not me. I'm a very warm, I'm a very emotive person. I like to talk about emotions. What I didn't realize until the last handful of years is I want to fix every bad feeling emotion around me in myself and in other people. So it's like, Becca's having trouble with the mic, and I'm going to offer, like, six suggestions because I really just hate the idea that she would be starting to feel frustrated or mad. I think the hardest feeling for me to withstand is anger. I want to please that person as soon as possible to finish the anger. I want it to be gone and done. And I think growth for me in the last handful of years has been like, you feel mad about this? I'm present to that. And I think some of the middle part for me was having to just voice it in an awkward way. [00:23:43] Speaker C: Like, yes, it feels so awkward. I just had to embrace the awkward. [00:23:50] Speaker B: Awkwardly, like, voicing what was internal for me. Otherwise, I would do it without thinking. So I was saying things like, I wish I could make your mad go away, but that's not appropriate. And so I'm gonna sit here. [00:24:03] Speaker C: Yeah, I know. You're like, that's. Maybe there's too many words. Sorry. That was my internal stream of consciousness coming out of my mouth. Sorry about that. It was a lot of. [00:24:15] Speaker B: Exactly right. And I was just a weirdo for a good long while. I'm maybe still sitting there, but I think what's slowly been happening over the years now is, like, I know it's okay for that teenager to feel annoyed, or I know it's okay for that teenager to feel disappointed. And, like, how do I meet them in the disappointment? And I'm just always gauging it. Like, am I trying to fix this so it will go away? Or am I trying to engage them where they are so they can process what they're feeling? It's really tricky, though, y'all. [00:24:52] Speaker C: Like, basically you're having. You're meeting them in the middle while having about 15 internal dialogue conversations going on. So this is where I said, man, oh, man, it's the most, like. Like, maybe y'all are sitting here listening, going, okay, guys, like, that's a whole lot of stuff. It is. But maybe I would just say, like, it's the richness and the connection and to yourself and to your children and to those that are in your family and your friends. Like, it feels like this is kind of where the good stuff is, right? To sort of be willing to go a little deeper and reflect inward. And then when you have opportunities to practice, which is all the time if you're parenting or in some sort of child care giving, even job like, I'm sure you have times all the time to do this sort of self evaluating and move into a place where you're doing more responding than reacting, which, Jesse, you just explained, like what the mental process is, like how that really looks is you're sitting and you're taking stock and you're reflecting on your own motivations and what's happening inside of you. And you're measuring the words at what you're offering, the person you're being present with. And it's just, it takes time. Maybe that's what I would say if this is not something that you're typically used to practicing. Go so easy on yourself. Like be gentle with you. Even in the stumbling through, awkwardly trying to do it, you know, because it, if this is not your normal mo or the family of origin or like something that feels like second nature to you, it's going to come out clumsy and you may even have some bumps. But that's good. [00:26:46] Speaker B: It's almost like parenting ourselves, right? [00:26:49] Speaker C: 1000%. [00:26:51] Speaker B: Because if someone, all those years ago when I was little, Jesse had said, okay, I know you're trying to move on, but I can tell you feel a feeling about this and I'm here for it if you want to share it with me. Like, I think that's what I'm trying to do for myself now. Like, okay, self, you're feeling a feeling about this. It's okay. Why don't you, why don't you share that? I know that. [00:27:20] Speaker C: Share that with yourself and then be myself. [00:27:24] Speaker B: Yeah, but it's like parenting our little kid selves for a second so that we can pass that forward to our own kids. [00:27:32] Speaker C: Yep. [00:27:34] Speaker B: Okay. Here's what I want to know. I think maybe you got us started on this a little bit, tawna, but circle back to it too. What is one way you want to encourage parents and one. And something you want to challenge them about when it comes to being present to their little and big kids emotions. [00:27:55] Speaker C: Becca, do you want to start us off on that? [00:27:57] Speaker D: I want to encourage parents that there's not one way. [00:28:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:28:02] Speaker D: So I, and that's, you know, you've listened to us for long. We say that all the time. But here's what I mean by that. Like, some kids need a hand on their back. Some kids need space. Some kids need you to sit down and ask questions. Some kids don't. So don't get stuck on the process as much as seeing your child. What are the things that are, you know, having them experience big feelings? What are the things that are bringing that up in them? What is that doing to you? How are you processing your reactions to their big feelings? What would it look like to move towards them and offer a way forward towards being connected to that feeling? Like, yeah, yeah, you're mad, man. I get why you'd be mad. I'm here with you. Like, what does that feel like? Or with a little toddler, maybe it's, hey, bud, let's get a snack. Like, maybe it is a little bit more of a redirection. So there's not one way forward from the big feeling. It's really, really just about taking steps towards the kiddo instead of becoming adversarial or, like, against them in their emotions. The challenge I would give is that emotions are tricky, and we live on pendulums, and the pendulum that we live on with emotions. And maybe I want to say three things, so maybe that's not a pendulum, but I think tendencies. We tend to walk on eggshells around kids because we're afraid of taking them off. And I think that's a dangerous way to parent or care for kids, because if we are walking on eggshells in a world with no limits or everything is like, everything is acceptable because I don't want to take you off. That can be dangerous. Whenever the kid is 28 and they need to fly and the luggage tag is taking a long time. Like, that could lead to a really bad situation in the airport if a person has never had practice working through that disappointment and frustration right onto this, too. [00:29:59] Speaker B: Because I think sometimes we. Sometimes we walk on eggshells and call it nurture. [00:30:05] Speaker C: That's not what. [00:30:06] Speaker B: Nurture. [00:30:06] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:30:07] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:30:08] Speaker B: So, yeah, what. You go ahead with your thought, Becca, but it's right on. [00:30:14] Speaker D: Maybe it's connected, maybe it's not. But I think we can walk on eggshells, or we can become overly involved, as I was, you know, in my sad feelings of, like, feeling exactly what the kiddo is feeling and not staying regulated ourselves. So I think if you're. And you might call that nurture. Well, I'm just showing empathy. There's a yemenite point where, as the adult, you have to find a way to stay regulated yourself. And if you can't do that, you're not helping co regulate. You're just in it with them. And so I used to talk with parents a lot about the emotional roller coaster that kids were on. And I would tell them to tell themselves, I am too tall for this ride. That doesn't mean I don't care about my kid who's on the ride. But if I'm jumping on the roller coaster with them, then we are both freaking out. Like, it is not helpful for anyone. So I think we can do eggshells. We can ride the emotional roller coaster. And then the last thing you've spoken to, so, well, Jesse is just not being willing to even touch feelings with a ten foot pole. So I would challenge parents to find, where are you? Are you the eggshell walker? Are you the ten foot pole or the roller coaster? And then depending on where you are, that will inform your next step. If you're a rollercoaster rider, you don't need to hear get really close to your kids feelings. You need to hear take deep breaths while you're sitting in the room so that you stay calm. But if you're the ten foot pole person, you need to be told, okay, put the phone down, put the dishes down, and go sit with your kiddo. It's okay that they're sad and mad. That's okay. So just. It depends on where you are, where I think you should start. So take the challenge that feels right for you as a parent. [00:31:51] Speaker C: I made a few notes, Jessie, when you asked that before, Becca, and literally, they're exactly in alignment with what she just said, which maybe isn't a horrible surprise. I was feeling something connected, but you just, man, you said it so well, Becca. It was connected to this idea of, like, nurturing, aka connected parenting. And sometimes those things, we don't always see that connected parenting is a balance of nurture and structure. So I want to bring that into this conversation, because having a, you know, a family that allows emotions doesn't mean that all structure goes out the window. So I appreciate this nuanced idea of, like, are you more left brain about it? Are you more right brain about it? The words you would say is, do you stay away from it, or do you jump on the roller coaster? Or are you avoiding it altogether? Like, those were just parental stress responses. It's just another way of saying fight, flight, freeze, or fawn as it relates to the big feelings and the behaviors that are connected to those feelings and how they come out with our kids. So maybe my last thought, if I could just sort of not see if it's an encouragement or a challenge, would be that parenting, well, does not mean your kids are not going to have big feelings, you know, quote unquote parenting well, doesn't mean there won't be meltdowns. Parenting, well, doesn't mean there's not going to be massive disappointment. It is finding your balance and how that particular child and you are dancing together and trying to assess what's going on in you and what they might need, and then responding in measure and measured to whatever it needs. So sometimes big feelings need a strong response. Not mean, not unkind, but strong. And in your own 2ft, holding whatever ground needs to be held for whatever way with that, kiddo, sometimes that can be the most regulating. Sometimes the whiny love needs you to slow down and get on your knee and say, I think you might be having a bit of a hard day. Would you like a hug? And then there's a puddle of tears and a big hug. Like our very best connected parenting self does not avoid the feelings. And we measure our response to meet the needs of the child while taking care of ourselves. And usually that's done in reflecting afterwards. So what activates me? What do I run from? What do I pull towards? What swirls me up? What roller coasters do I have a tendency to jump on? And if you have multiple children, or if you're taking care of or teaching multiple kids, it's going to be different for every child. So maybe my encouragement would be just be gentle, gentle on yourself and see the patterns. I mean, my biggest. My biggest epiphany with my relationship with one of our children happened because I saw myself having a similar reaction in a friendship and I was able to put words on it in a safe way with a caring, safe adult. And then I was able to see that pattern in myself and how it might also be happening with my child when they express a feeling in the same way. Because the child relationship was so close, I couldn't see it clearly. I just was so mixed up in it. So I think that it really is about a personal discovery and like I said, still 24 years in. So my encouragement would be hang out for the long haul and you're going to look up five years and ten years and 20 years, and you will not regret. You will not regret being reflective and thoughtful about this thing called feelings and emotions and how it plays out in your family and relationships. [00:36:06] Speaker B: That's good. My experience to our caregivers listening is that it's okay if you don't have this all settled today. Like, it's okay that you need to grow because we all need to grow. We will all be growing our entire lives in this area, right? So it's okay. It's okay to show up on not your best day. It's okay to show up just with what you have in any given moment. And it's okay to identify areas that you would like to grow in and start making efforts to do that. Like, yeah, I think when I think about what I want my kids to carry away from their experience in my family, with me as their caregiver, I know not very much of it is going to be things that I said or even specific things I did and all those things I did. That can be kind of depressing to think about. Most of it's going to be, like, the experience of my presence with them. Right, right. [00:37:13] Speaker C: That's right. [00:37:13] Speaker B: And like, that is, how did I show up? How did I show up in those moments when they were dysregulated? How did I show up in those moments when I was dysregulated or we were both dysregulated in our emotions and our bodies, in whatever, knowing that it's okay to say no to them and be present to that emotion of their disappointment. And I guess that would be my challenge. Is it is. You've heard. You've heard it from Becca and Tawna already, but there is a giant difference between having a goal of a well behaved child who is pushing down every negative feeling they have inside of them in order to comply with what you require, and having a well integrated child who can express appropriately what they need, negotiate their needs, and remain connected to you. And I think that there is even, there is even a picture of obedience in that as well. So I think I would challenge you to think, if you see our title, a lot of these things that we talk about, we sign off as meltdowns, tantrums, unacceptable disrespect. And I think I would ask us to reconsider, is it disrespect, or is it an expression of a feeling? And how can we scaffold our kids towards expressing their feelings in appropriate ways? Right. So that, like Becca is saying, when they get up to that airline counter, they're able to negotiate their needs in a way that is effective and important. And I don't know. That's the ultimate goal. It's so hard to do in the moment every day. And I know you guys are in it, especially when you're really in it. When you're in a season where when a kid is growing and learning a lot about this, it can feel brutal. And I just want to encourage you, just keep showing up, do what you need to do. For yourself to keep showing up and balance that nurture and structure, like Tawna. [00:39:29] Speaker C: Is saying, hey, Jessie, can I have you just brought something to mind. I know we're sort of finishing up, but when you said, like, there's a kiddo that could have it all shoved down versus one, you know, that can manage it in appropriate ways, I wanted to speak to. That's a spectrum that's really messy from one end to the other. And as much as I said earlier, like, be gracious with yourself as you're discovering. I don't want to over. I cannot, maybe I cannot overstate the importance of scaffolding that process and being very compassionate and gracious with your kiddos as they're learning. So this idea of regulation or whatever would be an acceptable response to own emotion. It's going to be real messy before it's not messy anymore. And that messiness is where we get to meet them. And the idea of show me, don't teach me is coming to mind here. Like, what does it mean for our children to see us model and be with them while they're learning how to manage disappointment or anger or frustration or sadness or grief? We often want to lecture them through. And it really is so much about modeling and showing and being present. And maybe my little encouragement would be, it works. It works with all kinds of rages. I mean, rages. All kinds of rages. It does work with rages, too. So that was a little freudian slip. It works with rages. I have some experience with such things. It works with ranges and ages and so many different kind of kiddos been. It's been a gift to see mo and I, and even our children grow through those different developmental ages and stages when they are given the freedom to have feelings, inappropriate ways, or redirected when it's inappropriate, but not asked to bottle up. So find your way. [00:41:33] Speaker B: Even, you know, you were saying, it gets messy. And then they learn my experiences, even as they grow into a new developmental stage, it might get messy. [00:41:43] Speaker C: It does usually get messy again, but. But there's hope because you've seen. You've seen some progress. The long game. Play the long game here. Yeah, man. This is a good cop. This is a good topic. We probably could keep talking for maybe three or four more episodes about our 15 part series. That's right. That's right. On the onion of feelings. [00:42:08] Speaker B: All right, as we. As we get ready to close, you know, my favorite question for anyone is always, what are you reading these days? So I'd love to know what's something you've been reading in the past couple months that has really just sparked your interest that you'd love to share with everybody else. [00:42:24] Speaker C: That's awesome. Becky, you want to go first? [00:42:26] Speaker D: Nope. [00:42:27] Speaker C: Okay, so I have. I. This is going to tell you something about myself. I had, like, six audible credits that were, like, getting, you know, they were just kind of racking up in my audible. And we've been doing some house projects at home. I have literally, in the last, like, three weeks, listened to, like, five thrillers. And for some reason it's all. And I can't even say the names of them. It's like lady across the lake, or the house across the lake, or the lady that disappeared, or alice forgot everything. I don't even know the titles of them, but you know what I'm talking about. Alice doesn't remember something. Like, I have, like, and I think I even. Becky, you were going on vacation. I think I even texted you. I was like, I have all these audible books if you need something to listen to. And I, like, took a break and stepped away, and I was like, why have I bought six straight, like, horror thriller suspense books? So I went to lunch with a friend last week, and we were just talking about podcasts and true crime stuff, and we were both. We had no answer. We were just sitting there eating mexican food, and we were like, why don't we, like, really dark things? And we were like, I don't know. No. Like. [00:43:42] Speaker B: There are listeners right now that are like, yes, that is all the. [00:43:46] Speaker C: True crime thriller stuff. I mean, I. Can I say that tongue in cheek? Maybe it makes me feel better about my life. I'm like, well, it's not that bad. Okay, it's not that bad. So my standard of what isn't that bad must be real, real low. So that's what I'm listening to. I don't know if it's giving me life or taking my life. [00:44:05] Speaker B: It's keeping me intensity from your short. [00:44:09] Speaker C: That's probably what it is, Jess. It has to have, like, high level of intensity and psycho thrillers. And I gotta think about why they're. Why they doing that, you know? So I can't. All the titles. [00:44:21] Speaker B: You've got a good thriller. Send it to Tawna. [00:44:23] Speaker C: Yeah, the titles, the. The storylines are all messed up because I literally, like, binged six audio full audiobooks in, like, the last four weeks. Okay. That's all I got. [00:44:34] Speaker D: Mine is similar but different, which is that while I was on vacation, I discovered that because I have Amazon prime there's like a lending library on Kindle. I didn't know. It's called prime reading. So it's not, you know, it's not your, like five star best book of all time. [00:44:50] Speaker C: It's not the new hardback fiction. [00:44:52] Speaker B: That's recommendations. [00:44:57] Speaker D: And I actually, off the top of my head, I samus Tan. I can't remember the titles, but I read like three. Just like free prime reading books, like on the plane rides while I was at the beach. So they, anyways, this is a new discovery for me. I'm more of a paperback person, but I've run out of space in my home. And so my sweet dad got me a Kindle, and he was like, just, you like to read. Just keep reading. But let's keep it. Let's keep it here. And so I, like, there was a, there was one that was a thriller. There was one that was a super cheesy love story, one that was about like a, like a vacation went wrong kind of thing. And so I just was reading, like, you know, mid level books but for free, which is my speed, so I love it. [00:45:41] Speaker C: All right, Jess, what about you? Because you're always, we. Yeah, Jesse's our book person around here. [00:45:46] Speaker B: I'm a book person, and I have a stack of things I'm reading. I'll tell you, I've been loving the City Spies series. That is a children's book series. I've been reading it with my youngest kiddo, and we, we really enjoy it. The audiobooks are awesome. And sometimes we listen instead of me reading. But now that I know the accents of everybody, I've been trying to read it myself, so. [00:46:10] Speaker D: Yes. [00:46:10] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. That's funny. With accents. [00:46:13] Speaker B: Yes. [00:46:13] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. Stop. And she lets you do that? [00:46:17] Speaker B: She does. She allows it. Although she has told me she misses the audiobook. So my days may be number. [00:46:23] Speaker C: That's awesome. She's like, yeah, mom's not anymore. [00:46:26] Speaker B: I usually have a nonfiction going. The one I just finished that I've been telling everybody about is the anxious generation by Jonathan Haight. Is it height hate? Something like that. But it's very buzzy right now. And I've been thinking a lot about it. And then I'll say in Jesse, can. [00:46:44] Speaker C: I respond to this really quick? I think I told you so. I was standing in the bookstore like two weeks ago, and I was, I started to pull the anxious generation off the bookshelf because everybody's talking about it. You had. And I did this, like, moment of self reflection. I was like, will reading the ancient anxious generation make me anxious? Yes, it will. And I reshelved it. It was like, I think I've done this. I think I have a handle. And I walked away. So it's like no anxiety for this generation. But anyway, I need the cliff notes because I opted out of reading it. But it's so everybody's talking about it so much right now. I know it's. [00:47:19] Speaker B: I know it's intimidating to read. It's a little bit like putting a WWJD tag on your car or something and then like feeling like you're on the hook to drive the way Jesus would or whatever. Whatever connects with holding yourself accountable. [00:47:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:47:38] Speaker B: Okay. [00:47:39] Speaker C: Anyway, you were going to say something else. I'm sorry. I just thought it was so funny. Anxious generation was going to make me. [00:47:44] Speaker B: Were talking about some things you tore through and summer is for rom.com for me. So I've probably read like five or six rom.com books that I had been saving up and just tearing through them. So fun. I love to sit out on my front porch and just love reading something light and fluffy. [00:48:03] Speaker C: I love that. I did start actually reading the covenant of water. Have you guys heard of that book? [00:48:09] Speaker D: I've heard of it. [00:48:10] Speaker C: It's massive. And I think that's the night I did not buy the anxious generation. I bought the covenant of water and told myself I'd read it over the summer that, nah, I'm gonna just tell myself I get to finish that one in December Christmas. But instead I was like, that's a very good book. And now I'm gonna listen to audible of people killing each other. Yeah, we all have sweet spots. [00:48:35] Speaker B: Okay, thanks for sharing that, guys, and indulging me in my nerdy interests. And thank you all for listening, and we hope that you'll join us next time. [00:48:50] Speaker C: Thanks, Jess. [00:48:56] Speaker A: We hope you enjoyed the episode. If you're interested in learning more, head to empoweredtoconnect.org for our library of resources. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at etc. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the empowered to connect podcast. In the meantime, let's hold on to hope together.