[E198] Why Dr. Deborah MacNamara Says You Need to Feel Empty In Order to Feel Full

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Empowered to Connect podcast, where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and wellbeing for ourselves, our families, and our communities. Okay, well, I am so excited to introduce you all to Dr. Deborah McNamara today, who is coming to us from Vancouver, Canada. And Debra, tell us a little bit about what you do and how you got involved in that. [00:00:34] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I'm a mom of two grown kids. I am a developmentalist at heart, which basically means how do we make sense of kids, how they grow? Well, how do we provide the conditions for that? I work with Gordon Neufeld at the Neufeld Institute. I'm on faculty there. I'm a teacher, I'm a counselor. I'm a writer. I try to put that all together and somehow make it work in any given week. But I love my work and I love making sense of kids. So thanks very much for having me. [00:01:00] Speaker A: Well, we love making sense of kids, too, so we're excited to do that together. And Deborah has a couple of books. I was telling her before we began that I'm a little bit fangirling over this episode. So if you hear me being just maybe extra emotive or extra enthusiastic, it's because I am a personal fan of Deborah's work. But I would love to kind of start out Deborah by talking about you begin your newest book called Nourished. And by the way, they have. She has the best subtitles for her books. So it's Nourished, connection, food, and caring for our kids and everyone else we love. We'll talk a little bit more about this book in a second. But you start out in the introduction giving an example of a time you went to Gordon Neufeld for advice. And we're big Gordon Neufeld fans over here at Etc as well. So he didn't give you the advice that you were hoping for. Would you share that story with us and tell us what you think parents need instead of advice? [00:02:04] Speaker B: Yeah. I think this is such an important question, and I'm so grateful that Gordon didn't answer my parenting question for advice directly. And the question was, essentially, I had two kids. One was a great eater, the other one was more picky, which, of course, I deconstruct that word now. And I was asking him for advice. How do I, you know, get her to eat more healthy food? You know, the food that I serve, she's so picky. And he thought about it for a moment, and I was, you know, I thought, well, this is going to be a profound answer because Gordon has to think about it, because Gordon's just brilliant. And so then he said, deborah, if you just throw in some. Because I said, she only eats cheese and bread. He said, if you throw in some wine, you'll have the perfect meal. And I remember looking at him thinking, I am so mad. Like, that is not an answer. Are you mocking me? Are you? Like, what? Why would he throw that curveball out? And so I sat with it because I have great respect for Gordon, and I obviously didn't want to get angry with postdoc supervisor. And so I sat with it. But it dawned on me after I left my meeting with him that he was trying to communicate something to me that he couldn't tell me directly and that I had to find. And that was that the answers to this question actually were already in me and that my focus was off and my focus was not on relationship. And so it was about the problem. That was about the behavior that had become bigger than what then? What was needed here in this situation? We could find our way through this problem if I changed my lens and my focus, which was on how I could be the provider she needed. And, of course, it led into research into the literature to say, well, what has happened here? Why is it that I, as a developmentalist, wholeheartedly support, believe, help my families with attachment issues, and I'm creating one around food? And so then I realized that the one area that has been really untouched through attachment and a behavioral lens deconstructed is actually around eating. And we're in big trouble around eating. So that's the story of the book. But never answer a direct question. So I'll try to be a little. [00:04:17] Speaker A: Bit more helpful to you. No, but I love that. I love that, because you're right, that I just felt that in the deepest part of me when I read that in the introduction of the answers are in us. And so often we are looking through the long wrong lens. And what I appreciate so much about your work is that you're always re centering me on what matters most, what I truly care about most, but lose sight of often. And so I'd love, as we kind of talk about this book, nourished and you've told us kind of what brought you to write it. This is kind of a big general question. I'll let you take it wherever you want to. But what does food have to do with attachment? [00:05:01] Speaker B: Yeah, well, if we understand that attachment is essentially the survival instinct that, you know, Maslow's hierarchy, which we've been enduring since 1943, this idea that food came first really reflected the ethos at the time, his own thinking. He was a traumatized child, actually. And this was not. Attachment was not first and foremost in his mind. So he created a hierarchy out of his own unmet needs and also reflected the ethos of the time, which was food must come first and that we followed blindly because we don't have a culture of attachment anymore. It's a culture of separation. And what does food have to do with it? Well, anything to do with caretaking and anything to do with our survival must come through attachment. Attachment is the fundamental human need through which we deliver our care. You can't deliver care to someone who isn't attached to you, who doesn't follow you, who doesn't seek to be with you, who doesn't belong to you. And, you know, many of your foster and adopt parents know this well, as soon as you get that child into your care, you know, your first order business to take care of this child is you've got to build that connection. And they're reticent to warm up. Sometimes they can detach quite readily. And they have good reasons for that. They come by it honestly. And so we need to be patient, and we need to find a way through to that child's heart slowly but surely. Some of the most interesting information around how we, you know, research that I did was actually in the foster community in terms of looking at how the receptivity of food tracked attachment. The deeper the attachment went, the more receptive the child was, the less attached, the more detached, the more they hoard. They take food matters into their own hands. You could actually track the relationship through the food. Now, you wouldn't put your, you know, you wouldn't focus on the food, but because food was meant to be part and parcel of the caring relationship, when it is not and it is separated, we take food matters into our own hands, and that's when the distress comes, particularly around food and other things. [00:07:10] Speaker A: Yeah, that's so fascinating. We're sharing looks over here, like, oh, yes, I know there are some listeners deeply feeling this as they're listening to you. What are some ways that we. That our culture tends to separate food from relationship? [00:07:26] Speaker B: Yeah, well, we've got three huge forces, of course, the industrialization of food, which was to save us from, you know, having to cook and having to provide for our kids this way now, you know, and as we move into the workforce and great numbers. And so the industrialization of food was meant to save us from this. Now it doesn't mean we can go back and cook food and from scratch. And I just, I have no prescriptions in my book for how we are meant to serve or what we're meant to serve. It's quite wide open based upon our circumstances. But we do have to recognize that there is an industrial machine that wants to take a yam and make it into something so that you pay more for the yam and sell you that finished product. So the industrialization of food that talks us out of our food culture is a problem because that culture was rooted in ancestors and ways of passing on memories and emotions that are encoded in those recipes, in the ways of coming together around food. We have a very behavioral lens when it comes to food. It's all about outcome. Do they have enough proteins? Do they have enough carbohydrates? Good or bad fats? Good or bad? We're obsessed with the micronutrients in things. And so this whole idea that we're meant to pre program and, you know, isolate all these different things and keep on track like we do and food charts and pyramids and yes, there are obviously times for this, especially when children have, you know, metabolic, metabolic issues and special, you know, health issues, of course we have to pay more attention to that. Allergies, anaphylaxis issues, of course. But this hyper focus, oh my goodness, on, you know, what is in the food, the nutritional aspect has gone through the roof and has created tons of alarm for parents. But there's also a behavioral lens which is eat the food on your plate. I know what you need, you know, clean dinner, plate club, consequences, bribes, threats, punishments. And so we've got these three major forces in the absence of food culture to guide us of industrialization of food, of the nutritionism and this whole ramped up, obsessive nutritional agenda. And we have a behavioral one that have converged and parents are alarmed. Parents are alarmed. If there was one word that I would say that is at the root of this is that we're alarmed and we don't feel confident in what we're doing around food, which is a great tragedy because this is in us to give. And I trust parents to figure it out. In fact, one thing that some of the research showed recently, in 2000, was it 2011, no, 2021, that 80% of parents, no, 70% of parents said 70 or 80 said that they knew what food they should be serving their kids. They're pretty clear on, you know, what food they wanted to serve their kids. But 70% said they had no clue how to do this, how we're supposed to eat, how they're meant to get their kids to be receptive. So it's not in the what, it's in the how. And of course, how is all about relationship. It's all about emotion, and it's all about development. Those are the three things, lenses that we would look through. [00:10:40] Speaker A: Love that. Well, tell me a little bit about this concept of collecting your kids. I know this is all the way through the Gordon Neufeld Institute material. It's in your first book. And I was reading it all the way through Nourish too. So tell us about what it is and how does it relate? How can we collect our kids with food? What does that even mean? [00:11:03] Speaker B: Yeah, so collecting is actually an attachment instinct, you know, or it's an attachment ritual. And what we're trying to do is to gather the attachment instincts. So what does that essentially mean? It means that inside of us, we have this innate capacity and desire to connect with another person. But you have to gather that. You have to gather that attention, you have to gather that instinct and that desire and will to connect. Because that instinct can go anywhere. We can attach to many different things, inanimate objects or living objects. And so we purposely have to move in to cultivate relationship, to collect, to gather the eyes, maybe a smile, maybe a nod, to come close, to convey some desire for proximity. You know, like, lovely to see today. I was thinking about you. I have a story to share with you or how are you feeling today? But you're just trying to gather and get into someone's face in a friendly way. Now, some kids who are more neurodivergent, of course, some sensory stuff can be more overwhelming. So we might just come alongside. It might just be the soft tone in our voice. It might be a sing song voice. You know, whatever it is, we find our way to a person's side and try to gather and collect. Now what does that do in terms of receptivity? It makes anyone receptive. Come for dinner. You know, these blueberries are incredible. Did you want to try one like that? Sets the context and the tone. It's so funny to me that the health guidelines in Canada, they have this new health guidelines that came out around food. And the message was, eat together with joy. Now you can say, eat together with joy or eat together with joy. And I think that's how a lot of parents feel like, okay, we got to eat together and everybody must have joy. You can prescribe this. This isn't from the outside in. It's from the inside out. Like, where does joy come from? When. Where does the desire to eat together come from? It's like, there you are. Let's sit down and, you know, you know, Jesse, let's have a cup of coffee. I'm so good to see you. So tell me about yourself. There's delight, there's enjoyment you want to move towards. Your heart opens up. I'll give you a quick example. My daughter lives in her basement suite and goes to university and gives her some autonomy and helps her with housing and helps us pay for her housing. And. But she leaves all the lights on and her fan on, and it's a heater. And I'm just so. I'm like, okay. I just wanted to send her a text to say, come on. [00:13:34] Speaker A: Like, just. [00:13:35] Speaker B: You're burning dollar bills, right? Like. But I thought, no, that's not the way to do it with a teenager. So I was talking to her yesterday, and she had asked for something. I was helping her with it. He said, oh, by the way, just a small thing, but, hey, I don't know if you know, but when you live on your own, you usually have to pay utilities and stuff. And I noticed you've been leaving the stuff on. Could you do me a favor? And. Oh, yeah, Mom. Sorry. I forgot. Okay. Okay. So I come downstairs today to my office, and of course, everything shut off. And she's, you know, remembered. Why? Because the request came inside the relationship. It came inside when she was connected and she had a desire to do this. So collecting is everything. It's an. It harnesses attachment, the most powerful force in the universe. Why we would not collect each other to come to the table when we are around it. It doesn't have to be a table. You could be eating in your car. You know, you can collect someone in your car. Food can have togetherness in a car. I'm not, you know, a stickler for that kind of stuff. But. Yeah, what you're doing is you're putting instead of eat together. It should be gather first, then eat, and then the joy is going to be there. [00:14:41] Speaker A: I love that. I'm going to say I love that about every single thing Dr. McNamara says today. Okay, guys, I. I want to know some more. Let's talk some more about how can we use food to collect people. You give a couple of examples in your book. One is kind of this aroma of carrot muffins you were making for your teenager and how that drew her out of her room. Another is an example that you give with me meeting Friends at the door with their favorite drink. Those are two that are coming to mind that are really going to stick with me. What are some other suggestions or ideas you have for using food to collect and harness this power of attachment? [00:15:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's. Food is because it's invisible in terms of the caring intent. Like when you say to someone, I really care about you, will you let me take care of you? That's very vulnerable, very vulnerable. And it's far too direct, especially for kids. If there's foster situations, that's far too direct, far too vulnerable. So. But the beautiful thing about food is it is embedded in that as an act of caring. If it's coming from generosity, if there is warmth and delight, then it is embodied by the relationship. And so what you're saying is, let me take care of you without directly saying, let me take care of you. And that's the magic of trying to feed someone or trying to take care of someone is you're basically saying, I want to share, provide, serve somebody's. So whatever way you want to do that, it could be with your neighbor. It could be with kids, you know, kids in care where you make a birthday cake, the first birthday cake they get. It could be with your friends coming to the door. It could be, you know, figuring out if you have a new kid in your care, what is it that they like. You're paying attention. You know, you're not being too obvious about it, but you're watching. Okay. They've got some. Oh, they really like garlic. Okay. And you're keeping that to yourself, and you're, you know, you're making things. A few more things with garlic, and you're being a bit less vulnerable. Well, there's stuff there, and you're welcome to join us. Or you might want to be on your own that, you know, you might want to eat at a different time. But that's okay. But I'll make sure it's there for you. So it's this kind of moving forward to say, the invitation is there. But of course, eating is something that someone has to decide to do on their own, so it gives them the autonomy. You can't put food into someone's mouth. It's just this beautiful invitation. So it sets you up for this dance of relationship, the invitation to take care, and then you can measure the receptivity. And so that's the dance of relationship. That's what attachment should look like. And so we're using our collecting to try to engage and get into that dance. But there's no one right way to do it. Be really creative with all things this way. And don't take it personally if they don't take you up on your offer. Just take notes. Okay? This is just where we're at. Give it time. Be patient. Give it time. I have to tell a story of one foster mom who came up to me after a presentation. She said she was from Mexico and she had moved up to Canada, and she was fostering many kids. And one of the things that her specialty was was to make individual tortillas. But she said, what happened? She said, I didn't realize how wonderful this actually was, is because I'm always at the stove. I can only make one tortilla at a time. So my. The kids come in one at a time, and I'm. I'm not sitting down. It's not too vulnerable with them. They come up, but I'm talking to them and I'm not even looking at them. And I'm cooking the tortilla. And she says, and I'm collecting them. [00:18:15] Speaker A: I love that story. [00:18:17] Speaker B: And I'm just like, she got it. She was already doing it. She didn't say, okay, well, how do I do it? She was already doing it. It worked. But then she was like. And she was cooking from her roots also, but she, you know, which embodied her as a provider and something that was deep within her, that she had obviously been cared for this way. So just show up in whatever way makes sense to you. You know, that is an expression of you and your caring, and just keep offering that and just wait for the receptivity. Sometimes things take a little while, but don't worry, the invitation is being extended, and that matters a lot. [00:18:51] Speaker A: This book is so full of so many great ideas. I love that you give recipes, although they're not food recipes, they're relationship recipes or recipes for these concepts you're teaching throughout the book. I want to bring my personal, vulnerable self to this conversation so our listeners know. I'm a mom of two through adoption and married for almost 19 years. And I just in the past month have upped my hours to full time hours. And so I am dancing that dance that many of our parents are dancing. In fact, maybe you yourself have done this in certain seasons. I was identifying with your. You said something in the beginning of your book about having to balance mom and Dr. McNamara and I. I just feel that in my life of, like, we know what we are teaching and believe about child development and about connection and relationships, and then we are going home and trying to live it. And we're not always doing, you know, doing that as well as we might be teaching and thinking about it in our professional lives. And so putting dinner on the table has looked very different this month than it has looked in the past. And so I'm wondering if you have advice or encouragement for parents that are just in a really busy season for whatever reason it is. There are lots of reasons that it could be hard to put dinner on the table. And it is. I love that you talk about. It doesn't have to be at the table. It could be in the car. For my family, we do still get to sit down at the table. But I'm finding this industrialization of food for so many of us is like. I think I was challenged as I was reading your book of oh, man, I want to make the carrot muffins. And I don't know when I'm going to do that. [00:20:46] Speaker B: So do I. [00:20:47] Speaker A: Right, right. So what encouragement do you have for me and for other parents who are finding themselves in busy seasons but still wanting to prioritize that relationship with gathering around food? [00:21:01] Speaker B: Well, I'd say, first of all, be patient with yourself. Like, this is, I think that the number that we do on ourselves and the expectations we have. I think we bring so much more anxiety to this because of that. I think we have to partly accept that it is the way it is for us. I would love to make homemade carrot muffins and grow carrots in my garden to make my carrot muffins. I mean, I had to stop my subscription to some of those house. I won't name the person the magazines because I thought this is just too much in. [00:21:31] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:33] Speaker B: This is just a pursuit of perfection. [00:21:35] Speaker A: Exactly. Reminded of all the things you don't have time to do well. [00:21:39] Speaker B: And I'm just like, I don't have an army of people to do this in my life. Like, this is completely a false front. That is. No, it's beautiful, but it's not reality for me. So I think we just be, you know, we know this. Be patient with yourself. Don't add more angst to it. You're going to figure it out. You're gonna figure it out. I don't know how. Tell us when you get there. Every one of us will have a different story. Like, some people get food services. Some people say four nights a week is great. Some people say, we'll do two nights takeout. Some people say to their partner, you've got to, you know, it's your night. Some people say, to the kids. You choose a meal, I'm gonna help you make it. You know, I. You're gonna figure it out. That's what I know about parents. You're gonna figure it out. And people just need to say that and realize that and be patient with yourself and the mess and the chaos and the mistakes you're gonna make. I mean, they're funny in hindsight. They're not funny at the time. It's like cooking in the instapot, lady. I mean, fish doesn't take any time to cook. And I try to cook an instant pot to save time. My parents, my family's like, don't ever do that. The house just stink. Oh my God. Like it's, it's actually quite comical. And you know what? Do. Do use the food that you think you can, you have best. Like, I mean, you know, get the, the pre cooked chicken. Like, I'm not the thing. The big message, I guess I would say is don't make food. The anxiety, like, focus on the relationship. Do the best you can. Show up the best you can. Yes. There are some uber skilled and organized parents that I just go find them and ask them how they organize their life. I am not your person. I am, I'm just happy if I get something on the table and I have my few favorite recipes. I can cook by heart. And you know, and that's just, that's wonderful. And I, and I take great joy when I can do that and yes, when I can meal plan and yes, when I can shop on a Sunday. And yes, all that stuff goes better. [00:23:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:41] Speaker B: But you know, it's just, it's just the messy reality and. But the message I would say is you're going to figure it out if it's of a value to you. You know what it's like when you're a parent. If something is of value to you, you keep on it. So just trust yourself. [00:23:58] Speaker A: I love that. I have a feeling maybe some people that thought I do not have time for that book might be interested in cracking open that book to hear your freeing words of you are not laying out why we all need to by organic berries and how we're ruining our kids lives by not serving six courses. Yeah, I. You're going to figure it out. I feel that message from you as I read your material. And I think it is one of the reasons I'm drawn to it over and over. It's. It's so freeing. And it is the gift that Gordon Neufeld gave you in the beginning is the Answers are within you, right? [00:24:42] Speaker B: It is. You know, when I was speaking to Gordon the other day, he was presenting in Belgrade for the Djokovic foundation, actually. And I was over there working. We were having a conversation over dinner, and I said, gordon, I'm finding that a lot of parents today, more parents coming to me saying I had such bad postpartum, and somehow reading Rest Plague Row got me through that, and I felt I could be a parent. And I said, I don't understand that. And he said, you've touched something that was missing for them and gave words to it. And I think you've just given words to. What it is is that so much of what's happening in parenting right now is alarmist. I was interviewing Dr. Kacharel yesterday, actually, about her beautiful work as a feeding doctor, and she said in her book she had written, there's no better consumer. There's no better consumer than alarmed. Than an alarmed parent. And so I think that is what's sort of landing on parents today. We're not doing it right. You don't. You're not feeding them right. The discipline's not right. This. Da, da, da. And so I think parents are feeling very overloaded. They care so much about their kids. They're so worried they're not going to get it right. They don't want to hurt the people they love, and they're just feeling buried underneath this pressure. So I think why the message resonates and resonated for me as a parent is because it's like you've got. You've. It's not like this cliche. You've got this, but you have the answers. Nature was not stupid. She wired us up to have the answers for our children. But it does require that we're going to sit in a little bit of conflict with ourselves, that we're not always going to know what to do, that we have to trust ourselves and have some confidence. But far too much of our parenting today has been turned into skills experts yelling advice at us. I mean, I can't even turn on Instagram sometimes with the barrage. And we're looking externally for answers, but we need to look much more internally. And yes, we do need to talk to people about it. Yes, we do need to bring our confusion. Yes, we should look for information, but it must still be centered within us to find the answers and that it's okay, that if it looks a little different for your family than somebody else's family, what you want for screen time and what someone else wants for screen time. That can look completely different. And that's okay, because what's most important that a child needs at the end of the day is an adult who takes and assumes responsibility for them and is their answer. Nature will take care of the rest. But that child needs a home. That child needs a place of rest. That child needs a nervous system that can focus on something else than attachment in order to grow. So that's the bare requirements, but those are tall requirements. But we're far too alarmed today, and we have too many alarming messages coming at us so well. [00:27:38] Speaker A: And even our surgeon general has issued, you know, he's concerned about parents and. [00:27:45] Speaker B: So good that he did. And I will tell you, the only thing that he missed, and I said this last night in a presentation to educators, is I bet if you looked at our teachers and educators, you would find the same thing as well, that as far as that is an occupation and taking care of kids, they're at the same stress level as well. [00:28:01] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. I'm just feeling deep breaths entering my body. Maybe if you are folding laundry or driving as you're listening to this episode, maybe you're feeling that as well. I want to talk about a couple more things with you at first, before we. Before we move on. You said something about how you've deconstructed the word picky. And I want to talk about the thing maybe people were hoping to hear about, maybe that you mentioned in your book. This is what people assume the book will be about. Tell me about how we approach picky eaters. [00:28:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So we have a construct of picky eaters, which essentially, to me, is a behavioral lens that we've applied, which is that child is not following the outcomes that I've set out for the eating agenda today. So therefore, they're picky, they're reticent, they're reluctant. Now, this usually happens around the age of 2 to 3. About 60% of kids are reported or 50 to 60% will come into pediatricians, and parents will talk about this, into doctors. So there's probably a whole bunch else that are not coming in or that it's just working for in a different way. This is a developmental issue issue in many ways. At the age of two to three, what's happening? It's the age of autonomy. They go from simply being fed to now becoming an eater. They have their own mind. It's like someone wakes up and says, I don't like that anymore. And you're like, where did you come from? Well, did you not want me to have my Own mind, My wants, wishes, preferences, desires to taste, experience, to know my body, to have a sense of myself. A child doesn't have that. They don't even say mama until they've said dada. And they don't say I until they said, if it's a heterosexual relationship, mama and dada, like, the development of the self takes time. So by the time they're two to three and they start to say, no, I don't like that, or they have some shyness around food, it's because they're introducing it, like for the first time. They're getting to have their own mind about things. Now should that we just back off and say, okay, you figure it out. No, we have relationship. And so what? A child at the age of two, what do they want to do? They want to be like the people they are attached to. Do you eat the same food? Is there enjoyment around the table in terms of being together and the food that you're eating? You know, if I want my kids to, you know, try. My daughter, who was very picky, she just had a very highly palate, sensitive palate. First of all, things were very provocative with taste and smell, which goes together. And texture. Actually, texture is a huge thing for her. I didn't know she was one of these neurodivergent kids when it came to these senses. Not like my other daughter, who just is neurodivergent in other ways. So it was more provocative for her. The sights and smells and then people's tension around the table. The emotions were also more provocative. So what I labeled as picky was just. She was overwhelmed. She didn't have enough space to figure out her own mind. She would have got to it if she could just have a little bit of space, have some autonomy. We could all relax a little bit about it. She could play with her food, she could smell it, drop it, watch other people eat it. You know that we say, oh, repeated exposure 15 times. Well, no, actually, that won't work unless you have connection. You could be in an alarming situation. Yeah, you can have 15 times of tormented exposure, where you can have 15 times of exposure in the context of connection, which would be different, you know. So her sister said to her one day, maddie, I think you'd really like this butter chicken. It's like, oh, it's my favorite. And I. She'd seen butter chicken, I don't know, 20 times on the table. I don't know, 50 times maybe. And I always say, you're welcome to try it. You don't have to. I, you know, we had butter chicken with edamame and rice, and it was a fusion meal because edamames are the protein and stuff that she would need. And she said, yeah, I'll try a little bit, because she saw us all enjoying it. And now she cooks butter chicken for herself. So picky is a term that we've constructed out of a behavioral lens, an outcome lens around food. This is a developmental progression. And what I'm hearing from colleagues, particularly in the US Is that kids with picky eating are now being sent directly for arfid and sort of resistant eaters down that path. When we, I think some of these kids, we just really need to back up a little bit and say, do we have the context for eating? Yes, there are sensitivities, just like there was with my daughter. But remember, nature wired us up to be able to find answers to that. So do we have a context of connection? Do we have relationship? Are we eating the same food? Is there exposure without coercion? Have we laid the table psychologically for the unfolding here as an eater and that we must answer that question first before we go to, I think, severe pathological ways of looking at this. Is it difficult for some people with food? Yes, they are overwhelmed by it, for sure. So let's take our time, go slow, and use a relationship to bring that development along. [00:33:02] Speaker A: I'm thinking about our families, which include mine, who've had newly placed children through adoption or foster care. And both of my children came to our family through international adoption. So that means there were different tastes and smells and sights, and then they were placed in this, you know, United States context where food was very different than what they had experienced in utero or in their first couple of years of life. But that can happen in foster care situations as well, you know, where a family culture is built around one kind of food or tastes or those types of things. And then you're put in this foreign world of smells and tastes that are different. How can we be patient with our kids as we're introducing food and trying to build attachment with them? In those early days, I heard you say patience. What else? And, and maybe I hear in your story, you know, you were saying there was edamame there, even though if it didn't go along with your theme of butter chicken because you knew your daughter would eat it, what else can we do as we're being patient with kids that are newly placed in our homes? [00:34:21] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you bring up such a good point of all those experiences that they are Shaped by that. They come in and then there's a reshaping. And of course, that happens in the context of attachment. And patience is required because just as a seed, you know, a plant, when transplanted, needs to have roots that are, you know, rebuilt. We can do that. But the beautiful thing about attachment is it allows it. Attachment is the vehicle for transplantation. Patience is not a feeling. It's actually two feelings that come together. And so patience derives from experiencing both the frustration that you have in this endeavor as well as the desire which counters the frustration, the desire to feed, the yearning to take care of a child, to be their answer to, you know, make sure that that seven dollar lettuce doesn't go to waste. The time and energy that you put in planning a meal, the excitement you have about sharing something that might be important to your family or your own roots, that all your desires that come with it, they're not wrong, they're not bad, and, you know, they might not be fully realized. And so that's the frustration is this child isn't taking you up on your offer. You don't know, can't make sense of what's getting in the way. And so you're in this position where you have two competing emotions. And so just try to feel them both if you can. They will actually collide with each other. And as they collide with each other, you're going to feel kind of stirred up, but will also paralyze you in the sense that that will give rise to patience. Like, okay, don't say it, don't do it, you know, whatever you need to do. But patience comes from allowing yourself to feel those two conflicting feelings and to know that they both need to be there. Your frustration is born from your desire to care. But, you know, we're not in charge of that. Their child's brain is in charge of receptivity and whether or not they're going to let us in. And so just patience, you know, is about, okay, I'm frustrated, but I still want to hold on, you know, and that's where the patience comes from. It comes from the mixing of those two feelings. So don't tell yourself to not be frustrated or you're bad for feeling frustrated, or you can't do this because you have lots of frustration and you're, you know, you want to react too quickly, like, yes, that's why you're signed up to do this. I don't know how it couldn't be there. You're gonna second guess yourself sometimes. And I mean, every Parent does. You know, however you get your child, every parent, I think second guess is third, fourth, fifth, tenth guesses. [00:36:59] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:37:01] Speaker B: So patience, desire, remember why you did this. Remember what it means to you. Come back to those roots again and let them anchor you in your frustration. [00:37:11] Speaker A: That's great. Um, great advice. And a good reminder that we often have competing emotions and a great reminder that we don't have to push away the negative feeling ones. That it's both. That those things, you know, patience is both frustration plus desire. I love thinking about that. All right. I have to admit, one of my very favorite things that has come from Rest, Play, Grow, which was your first book that I read, is this concept of tears of futility. And I told my husband, Nick last night, I was so excited about interviewing you today. I said, I'm getting to do something really exciting tomorrow. And I told him about it and he said, you know, what are you going to ask her? I said, I'm going to say tears of futility. Go. Because I just. This concept unlocked something new for me. And I'm such a child development fanatic, you know, it just. I hadn't heard anything like it before. And I saw you thread this through nourished as well when you talked about. I'm going to say this word wrong, but satiation, and also these ideas of, like, having a full belly and. Or the way our emotions play into our gut. So this is kind of a tall order. But tears of futility, go. [00:38:38] Speaker B: Beautiful, beautiful question. And I'm not sure outside of attachment, if there's a better question you could have asked me. [00:38:47] Speaker A: Great. Okay. [00:38:49] Speaker B: And what I mean by that is it's just so misunderstood and so needed. And it's very simple. You can't feel full unless you can feel empty. Satiation is the other side of sadness. And so we have a war on sadness. We have an allergy to sadness. We have a need to hand sanitize away those hard emotions that are. That take us down into our despair, into our grief, into our emptiness. Oh, my goodness. But, you know, they're so important for our recovery, for our renewal, for our own personal transformation. There is so much that doesn't work. There's so much that doesn't work today in our world. In parenting, we are working so hard. We have to become so conscious of so many things that we're meant to take for granted. We weren't meant to talk about love and protect play and how we eat and the importance of tears. Like all of this was something that culture took care of. And there Were ways to move into relationship. There was a village. There was rituals of play. There was rituals of togetherness. And so we've come so undone. So tears, I mean, tears save you. They transform you. We are so worried that when our kids cry that we've done something wrong here. That they're upset is the evidence that we finally can see that we are absolutely hopeless at this parenting game. Oh, my God. You are so trusted. If a child will give you their tears, they're giving you their heart about what is empty for them. You know, like, I have one family that the biological father has an addiction, and the stepfather has stepped up and is an amazing stepfather. And, you know, the mom's doing all she can to hold on to the bio dad for this daughter. And I mean, they're an amazing family and incredibly mature parents in what they're trying to do. But the little girl says to her stepdad, I just wish you were my real dad and not my other one. And she's seven or eight. She's come to the realization of what her bio dad cannot do. She's seeing him for who he is. And so they're highly distressed. And he's saying, I can't give anymore. I've also got my kids, and I've, you know, got all these competing things, and I'm doing all I can. Like, I can't, I can't. How do I step up to be her answer this way? And I said, you don't have to. You already have. Like, you're already there. Her yearning tells you that you just have to walk beside the sadness inside of her that the other person didn't. You already are the answer. Stop it. Like, make room for her sadness. That's all you need to do. Hold on to it, cherish it. Tell her it's important that this whole speaks to the love that she has to somebody. I think, you know, the more that I work and walk alongside sadness and grief, I actually think it's an exquisite emotion. Because what happens is that love is about satiation, fullness, and holding on. But when there is separation and that love or something is taken away from us, how do you hold on? There's a hole. How do you hold on? Sadness comes, and in that sadness is your expression of love. I love something. It went missing. It's not there. I want it. But you are connected through your sadness to the thing that you love. It's an exquisite emotion. So tears of futility. Yes. Some things don't go your way. It can be small hurts, like you didn't get a cookie. You didn't win the game. And, you know, you work in foster and adopt. There's big hurts here. [00:42:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:55] Speaker B: How could you do this walk? And how could you be a parent, any parent, but when there haven't been separations here, we must walk beside sadness. [00:43:08] Speaker A: Oh, all right. Grab your tissues, everyone. And those tears, those tears are good tears, right? [00:43:19] Speaker B: They'll stop when they need to stop. [00:43:22] Speaker A: Yes. And I love and Nourished, you say tears are not the hurt, they are the healing, which is exactly what you're saying you have. And I will encourage over and over people to read this book, Nourished. You have sections on why people are running to food, for why our children might be running to food, for soothing themselves or filling that sadness and how we can handle that. And I just. I really, really love this concept of the importance of tears, and it's one of the most important things you're bringing to parenting culture today. [00:44:05] Speaker B: Well, thank you for that. [00:44:07] Speaker A: I know we've all had a lot to take away from this, and just thank you so much for your words of wisdom and encouragement and the deep breaths that we've been able to take as parents listening that we have what we need within us and to become students of our children, which I know so many of the parents listening are doing their very best to do. Maybe a lighter question as we finish. What is. Well, I have two. So first, encouragement for if people are just discovering you and they're getting into your material or they're just listening to you for the first time on this podcast, and maybe they have older children, teenagers in their home, or even adult children, which you talk about in your book, you've talked about in our podcast, and feeling maybe some regret, like, oh, there's some things I've missed there. I wish I could go back. How can. What encouragement do you have for them today to kind of implement what you teach today now? [00:45:15] Speaker B: Well, I would encourage them to find their tears about the regrets. Let the tears take care of that. We all have those as parents. And the encouragement or the hope would be that it's never too late for attachment till they lower you in the grave and beyond. You know, as my mother recently passed away, and rediscovering my relationship with my mother after her passing has been a beautiful thing. Death is not a barrier to love if you've have that love there. So, you know, until we part, keep working on attachment and then also know that your child will probably still be working on attachment with. With you. So leave as Much of yourself behind that. You can. And. And just don't call it quits. It's actually really never too late to find your tears or to attach. So stay with that. [00:46:07] Speaker A: I love that. Okay, now our lighter question. If you were having someone from your childhood or today make a meal for you, what meal would you like it to be? [00:46:20] Speaker B: I would like my mom's Yorkshire pudding and roast beef dinner. She would always say that the her Yorkshires were so high that you had to put saddles on them to ride. Yeah, with some. With horseradish. No, my mom's Yorkshire pudding and roast beef would be wonderful. [00:46:36] Speaker A: Do you put anything on the Yorkshire pudding or do you eat it plain? [00:46:40] Speaker B: Well, you have different. You know, you can crack it open, you put your little roast beef in there and you can put your gravy inside and have a little sandwich or you. Everybody does it differently. But yeah, the. The York shorts, as my kids call them. But mine are minor, small and dumpy. And my mom's were huge and high. I still haven't figured out a recipe. She kept telling me how to make them. But anyway, onwards I go and try. [00:47:03] Speaker A: I love that. I do want to. [00:47:05] Speaker B: That I have loved your questions, your insight, and just having this conversation with you, it's just been delightful. [00:47:14] Speaker A: Oh, thank you so much. Well, and I'm even hearing in the way that your mother gave you the recipe, but no one could make it like her. You give that example in your book that there are maybe parents who don't always readily pass on the recipe so that their adult children will come back to them for that meal. Well, here's wishing that you're able to continue working on those Yorkshire puddings. And thank you, Deborah. Thank you for sharing your wealth of wisdom with us. But even more important for helping us believe in ourselves and the way that we've been wired that we do have what it takes. I appreciate you. [00:47:56] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you for all your good work too, to support parents. It's my pleasure to be here to support you. Thanks. [00:48:07] Speaker A: Okay. What an amazing time we've had with Dr. McNamara. I hope that you enjoyed that as much as I did talking with her. And maybe we have some brand new fans of Deborah's. If you are interested in looking for her or learning more about what she's written and what she does, you can check her out at her website, which is in our show notes and we will have her social media links as well as the links to her books posted as well. Guys, we are giving away a copy of Nourished and we would love for you to enter this drawing. Check us out on one of our social media outlets on Facebook or Instagram. And what you have to do to get this book is first of all, subscribe to this podcast, listen to this episode, which you already have if you're hearing this, and then comment nourished on our on our social media post and we will choose one of you to receive this fabulous book. We hope you enjoyed the episode. If you're interested in learning more, head to empoweredtoconnect.org for our library of resources. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at etc, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empowered to Connect podcast. In the meantime, let's hold on to hope together. [00:49:30] Speaker B: SA.