[E209] Marriage in the Midst

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Welcome to the Empowered to Connect podcast where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families and our communities. All right, everybody, we are so excited to sit down with Mo and Tana. Fresh off of being the keynote speakers at one of our partners marriage conferences, the Sparrow Fund hosts a conference called Together called called Every Year. It's a fantastic opportunity for adoptive and foster parents to really experience being renewed, being refreshed, being encouraged. You guys, you just got back as we're recording this kind of. What. What was your experience? What was something that really stood out to you that you enjoyed about being there? I didn't get to go, so fill me in. What did you all enjoy about being there? [00:00:52] Speaker A: Yeah, it's so fun to be with you, Becca. And of course, it's fun to be with you two, Mo. So here we go. That this is the first time, just as a married couple, that we've gotten to get away together like this and in a really long time, actually. We have to be careful because of the dynamics of our family about making a commitment way ahead of time to be out of town at the same time with kind of no flexibility for something to go off the rails. And so we take our together commitments that don't have flexibility really, really seriously. And so when we were with them, it was evident to both of us, I think, pretty quickly that that was like a really good yes, we were, um. It felt right to be in a room full of other families and parents that were walking the same road that were there, really thinking about how they could be in partnership and collaboration within their marriages to like walk this thing out for the long haul. And so it was a joy and a delight to be there. And it gave us some time, I think, really in preparation for it. We've been really, really, really deep in the weeds for so many years that just really talking about all of these concepts and ideas as it applies to kiddos. And so it was fun, even the preparation for us to step back and really wrap some of these ideas around and talk about it in light of our marriage. So it was awesome. Not to mention it's beautiful where we were. [00:02:18] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. I agree. I agree. It was a sweet time to get away with like minded families and just be away. And like Tana just said, the preparation part, so so much of what we do is talking about parenting and to be able to look at marriage within the context of a family and in parenting was really good. Sweet. [00:02:41] Speaker A: Agreed. [00:02:41] Speaker B: Absolutely. Okay. I don't know if we've ever asked this on the Etc podcast, but when did you guys meet? How long have you been married? [00:02:49] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, that's amazing. [00:02:50] Speaker C: We have been married. We were 27, 26, 28. Somewhere in there. [00:02:57] Speaker A: Math doesn't always math. [00:02:58] Speaker B: Not quite 30, but close. [00:03:00] Speaker A: A lot of years. [00:03:00] Speaker C: A lot of years. [00:03:02] Speaker A: We know exactly how long, right? I mean, it's. We got married in 1997, so somebody can do some math really, really quick. That would be amazing. [00:03:09] Speaker C: So 28 years. 28 years this summer. So we have. We have walked some seasons and some road together, and it's, It's. It's fun to just to look back at those seasons. And some of those seasons have been really sweet, some have been challenging, but we have, man, we're here. Coming up on 28 years. [00:03:37] Speaker A: Yeah. When we were talking about this whole idea of, like, length of marriage and seasons, we were starting to get ready to go and share, and then we actually saw, I think it was like a little video on Instagram or TikTok or something that you sent me, Mo. And it was about this guy that said, by the time that you have your entirety of your marriage, you've had five marriages. And that actually lined up with exactly how we started our talks, because we were thinking about our marriage through kind of eras and how each era has been uniquely different. [00:04:10] Speaker C: And shout out to T. Swift eras. [00:04:14] Speaker A: I did. I was like, yeah, Mo's kind of a swifty. I just let the whole podcast audience know that too. But. And looking at those eras as. As really, I think that hindsight is such a powerful thing because it's really hard sometimes to have perspective when you're in the middle of something. There's something really important, I think, about looking back over what you've walked through and maybe how you've grown and changed, maybe how you were able to show up in ways that you didn't think you could. And I think it builds a lot of resilience even to think about the past and what we've walked through. And so we've. We've walked through some seasons. Right. So to your point, Becca, we got married in 1997. We were young married. We moved really quickly in our marriage. We started building our family, and our family started growing really quickly. And we were kind of came into it with, like, sunshine and rainbows and everything's gonna be awesome and so naive and just like, we're amazing people. We're gonna be amazing parents. We're like, we have a strong relationship. This is not gonna be a Problem, like, so incredibly hopeful. But I would say, like, also, like, really, really naive and then realized a few kiddos in that we were, like, way deep in the trenches. Like, we were deep, deep, deep in the water, and we needed to kind of make some changes at that point. [00:05:46] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, you know, the reality is to talk, like, when we were first asked to speak on marriage, I was in some regards going, man, I don't know what we would talk about. And the reality of a marriage is that it happens, at least within our family, within the context of our family. Right. And so when we are looking at needing to make some changes, a lot of the tensions within our marriage was because we were not on the same page around parenting, and we were needing to learn a new way forward. And there were things that we bring into our marriage. You don't just come in as a clean slate. And so, you know, there was just. There was complexity to our home and to our family and to our marriage that we needed to. Yeah. Reassess it and make some changes. [00:06:52] Speaker B: And you're highlighting something that I think a lot of people feel where it's like, okay, the marriage is separate. Like, I need to invest in my marriage and I need to invest in my kids, and I need to, like, it kind of comes off as we're kind of siloing ourselves into these little chunks. And what I hear you saying is, no, man, it's like, all connected together. It's all mixed up. [00:07:16] Speaker A: It was because when I think about those season, especially in that. That first one where we realized, like, things are not going well, the reality that things weren't going well mostly was because of what was happening in the reality of our parenting. And we. We started going, oh, something has to give, Something has to change. But. But the fact that it wasn't going well was impacting our marriage. So to think that we could tend to our marriage separately than we were tending to the reality of what was going on inside the family was. Was not it. It was a high hope. I would. I would say, really, because oftentimes, and I don't want this to sound like we're being critical or judgmental. We're not in any way. But a lot of times, the sort of formula that you're given for supporting your marriage, well, it wasn't really something that we could. We couldn't do that formula in. In our family dynamic at the time. In fact, we were trying to un. Formula way of thinking as it pertained to parenting. We tried to do a formula. We tried to do A plus B equals C. And things weren't working for our kids. And so our, our sort of marriage solutions were, were being given to us in the same kind of formula. So we're like, hold up, hit pause. We are working through some. We were growing in knowledge is what I would say. We were growing in our, our understanding and our compassionate for what was going on with the kids. And we started realizing, hold on a minute, this stuff applies to us too. So if we're going to think about any number of like, concepts or insights as it applies to kids, can we sort of try to undo this formula, way of, quote, unquote, fixing our marriage and operate similarly, which meant like, you know, a once a week date night wasn't the solution. Like that. Those are not bad. But that's not going to fix our marriage. It's not going to repair what was going on at home any more than a quick band aid would for the kids. Like, it was a much more complex, nuanced family system kind of work that we needed to really undergo and we needed to make significant changes as we grew in a lot of understanding around a lot of areas. So there was a lot of knowledge and insight that we needed to gain. [00:09:49] Speaker B: I've heard you guys talk about this idea before, and I wonder, Mo, can you like, maybe put a pin here for our listeners? Tana saying, like, date nights, wasn't it? We needed, like, maybe. Are you comfortable sharing a little bit of why, like, why was your family in a season where it was like, okay, hold on, we got to look at this whole deal all together. You guys had some unique, unique things that not all families face. Would you kind of share for listeners maybe why you find yourself there? And then what are some of those insights that you started to gain? [00:10:19] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think one, we were not on the same page. And I mean, if I can just. Where we were in that season is that Tana was becoming very attuned to what was happening in our home with our children. [00:10:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:45] Speaker C: And she was making some paths forward there. I would come in, coming home from work and, man, I would just step in and do. I would enter the home how I wanted to enter the home. And so I was adding some chaos to the home. So she was, she was, I would say she was further along on the parenting journey than I was because I wasn't really open to at that point making any changes. I mean, this is how we're going to do it. This is what I grew up in my home. And we can just do it how we want to do it right. [00:11:25] Speaker B: All those expectations that we have, all those things. [00:11:28] Speaker C: And you know, like, I just thought we could do whatever. And so it was just, it was, it was just a real hard place to be because we weren't on the same page. And it was just, it was like, I think I really had. Things were going to be a little simpler. Things were going to be like A plus B equals C, black, white. And I began to realize that it was, it was a little more complex. [00:12:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:01] Speaker C: That there was some nuance to parenting and to relationships and that I needed to begin to do some work in regards to my whole family. And that meant some parenting work, which ultimately is relationship work. I mean, it's just about good relationships. And so. [00:12:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I would love to kind of highlight you saying that we were on different pages because I want to be. I want to be like, really thoughtful here to say that we were both having to learn like a lot of really new things. And, and I think mo, if I'm, you know, I don't want to be like, revisionist, historian. I think we were both really open to. I think we both knew some things needed to change. Like we, we didn't love the temperature of the home. We didn't feel like we were really meeting our kids needs. We felt like we were seeing things like, just real specifically, like behavior and like the way we were to respond to it really differently. We were trying to unlearn some ways that we thought about discipline. Like we. There was, it was very, it was a ton there. So I think we were both open to learning something new, but we weren't doing it maybe at the same pace and in the same way. And what I mean by that is I was, you know, reading the books and I might be like, oh, I'm understanding, you know, how trauma impacts the brain. I'll use that as an example. But I didn't have enough language to explain that to somebody else yet. And I didn't know how to apply that knowledge to like how I was going to interact with the kids. So I was like, it was like trial and error. And so in reality what would happen is I would be learning new ideas and be like, hey, I'm going to try to respond differently or I'm going to do this differently or we're going to stop doing X and we're going to start doing Y. But I didn't really talk to you about it very much because to your point, I was trying to use my intuition to figure it out. And we didn't Have a shared vocabulary. We didn't have aligned principles yet. We hadn't figured out what it. We didn't even have language for what we had been doing. [00:14:13] Speaker C: Right. [00:14:14] Speaker A: In a way that helped us figure out, oh, we want to stop doing this and start doing this instead. So it's just. It was this very messy middle ground where it almost got. Well, I'm not going to say it almost. It got worse before it got better. [00:14:28] Speaker C: Right. [00:14:29] Speaker A: Meaning even the way that we, you and I were disaligned, we became. We were kind of mostly aligned and doing it in a way that was not helpful. [00:14:38] Speaker C: So we were both bad. [00:14:39] Speaker A: Right. Right. [00:14:41] Speaker C: And then. [00:14:41] Speaker A: I mean, I didn't want to say bad. [00:14:43] Speaker C: And then you met. [00:14:44] Speaker A: We were both not doing great. [00:14:46] Speaker C: That's right. [00:14:46] Speaker A: And then we were doing our best and it wasn't helpful. [00:14:49] Speaker C: And I stayed not great. And you moved toward. [00:14:52] Speaker A: Well, I think we were both moving. I. I don't want to minimize the growth and work that doing because we both agreed something has to give. [00:15:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:00] Speaker A: But how we figured that out was in different ways based on our personalities. Some of. Some of it was proximity to the kids. I was home all day. You were working outside of the house and. And I was like getting to try. And you got home and I didn't know how to explain to you what I intuited. I didn't know how to pass the baton to you. I didn't have any patience for you at that time because you couldn't intuit it on your own. And I was. I felt kind of abandoned in making the changes. Like it. It got hot and heated before it got better. But I think what we were both committed to is something has to give. And we were willing to sort of. I don't think battle it out is the exact right word, but that's what's coming to me right now. Sort of battle it out. And sometimes that meant we felt like we were in opposition to each other, but really our goal was the same. We just had to figure out how to get there. And so it was a very tense time in our marriage. But then again, we started realizing, like, learning things. And I'm like, wait a minute, like, I'll just give an example. We're learning about the kids stress responses. Like, we knew that there was something. We started understanding this idea of fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. And we wanted to understand how to support our kids. So we came to these stress responses to get insight on our kids and then realized, holy smokes, this is us too. [00:16:24] Speaker C: Right. [00:16:24] Speaker A: So it's Almost like the children truly were the invitation and pathway for the whole family to heal. [00:16:33] Speaker C: Right, Right. [00:16:34] Speaker A: We. We knew we wanted to be the parents they deserved and the. And, and show up the best we could. And we knew we could show up better than we were. [00:16:42] Speaker C: Right. [00:16:42] Speaker A: But with every new thing that we thought we needed for the kids, it was just a mirror that we need it for ourselves individually and that we need it for our marriage. Right. So I would think about stress responses would be one thing that comes to mind. [00:16:56] Speaker C: Absolutely. I mean, we. We say that even in our parenting courses that we do. Right. People come to us to talk about their children and they soon realize, no, we're gonna talk about you. Right. Relationships, attachment, it's a two way street. It's two people. So. Absolutely. I mean, yes, the stress responses was a big eye opener for us. [00:17:22] Speaker A: Right. Because even us sort of not being on the same page, like, we began to discover, like, my stress responses fight, and Mo, yours is flight. Yeah. So that was what was happening in the reality of the family. And kiddo's not going well. Mo's sort of making a joke and trying to escape and get out of the heart and get out of the situation, and I'm like doubling down and digging into it and wanting to fix it. And so even the reality of the complexity of what was happening within that family dynamic, we. We were like, oh, these stress responses that we're experiencing with our children, we're experiencing with each other. So how can I practice some patience and slow down and how can. [00:18:11] Speaker C: And how can I step in? [00:18:13] Speaker A: Yeah, how can you. How can I, like, maybe step back and take a beat? And how can you step in and take a beat? You know, like, we were coming at it all totally differently from different. And, and how can we observe that behavior in a non judgmental way so we understand that stress responses are involuntary. It's our body's physiological protection mode and mechanism. So if I can say, like, oh, he's not doing that to me personally, that's just a sign that he needs some support. Oh, I'm not doing that intentionally. That's a sign I need some support. So how can we change the framework and apply that same compassion we were trying to find for our kids to ourselves first and then to each other? [00:19:01] Speaker B: I appreciate just that whole, like this whole part of the conversation is just permission to not divorce your marriage from your family. It's permission to keep those things integrated. And so as I hear you guys talk about what you've learned, it was all mixed up together. But you were committed to the same thing. You were committed to let's work towards healing for our family or towards maybe peace or some other semblance of, you know, like, what you wanted your life to feel like or look like or your home. And so as you did that, I just appreciate that permission to see it as one thing. And we're moving in the same direction together. [00:19:42] Speaker A: I remember one of the very first, like, big questions we had to ask as we had found the empowered to connect parenting material. Remember, we didn't found this thing. We're like second generation as we get to steward the next season of empowered to connect. But one of the very first questions that we were asked to consider is what did we consider to be successful parenting? And to your point, Becca, we were disal. If we were disaligned in that answer, then it was going to be hard to find the pathway forward. And so I think we applied that to our marriage. But a couple of things happened that I think unhooked something for us. I think what we agreed is, well, we want our. For parent. We would. We would consider. And this was. We were learning something new. We had to redefine what we thought was success. That successful parenting is a. Is creating a home where children can be, you know, can experience healing and connection. Well, I don't think at that point we were like, oh, but we also need to experience healing. I don't think you. And I'm certain we did not start parenting thinking we needed to do any healing. [00:20:50] Speaker C: I did not. I can. [00:20:51] Speaker A: Zero. [00:20:52] Speaker C: Yeah, right. [00:20:53] Speaker A: We. We had a different definition of success, and it was probably much more about outward appearance, behavior, accomplishments, pouring out to others. Like, there was a different definition of what successful home would look like. So when we were like, wait a minute. Actually, if we believe successful parenting is connected, healing centered, and trauma informed. Holy smokes. We need to be healing centered for ourselves and each other. We need to be connected for ourselves and each other. And we need to have a lens of, like, a growth mindset that we have growing to do too. [00:21:31] Speaker C: Right? [00:21:32] Speaker A: We did not think we did. [00:21:34] Speaker C: Right. [00:21:34] Speaker A: I'm just. We didn't. We were like, we're awesome. [00:21:37] Speaker C: Right? [00:21:38] Speaker B: But I think a lot of people resonate with that. It's like, I'm a good person and I want to have a. I want to be a good parent, and so I will be. It's that, like, desire. We want things to be great. [00:21:49] Speaker A: So they will be. [00:21:50] Speaker B: So they will be. [00:21:50] Speaker C: Right? Like, I. I mean, Tony, you just said a growth mindset. Like, I would never have classified myself as one with a fixed mindset. Like. Like, we're just kind of. We're. Yeah, I'm growing. I'm always growing, you know, new seasons. But I think what. What came front and center for me was I really was fixed on, like, what I thought parenting was going to be, marriage was going to be, relationships were going to be, and how that dynamic would play out. And so there really is a shift when you begin to say, I've got to have a growth mindset. And, you know, that's. That's humbling to realize that, you know, you're putting your head on the pillow at night realizing, man, this is harder than I thought. And. But there's a real gift. There is a gift in growing, and so. [00:22:53] Speaker B: Absolutely. And it's a reminder that this is a journey, like, there. You know, we're just moving forward together. Okay. Before we move on from this idea of, like, complexity and seeing it all mixed up together. I became a parent, like, five months ago, and Tana has been encouraging me so much in this season. And I think when we talk about my marriage. Tana, something that you bring up that I can't think of anyone else in my life who's been this clear about it. You talk a lot about showing up for each other, like, in the tag team and in the being trusting each other and in showing up for one another. I think I just can't let us skip through this part without putting a note on that, because for me, just seeing marriage that way in this new parent season has been different from what I've heard from other people. It's just a different way to think about it. Can you kind of tell our listeners what is that mindset? What is that kind of encouragement that you give folks as they think through. Okay, we're in this era. We're in this new era. What are we supposed to do with this? How do we navigate this season? [00:23:57] Speaker A: I think if I were to, like, peel the covers back like this, the. The bottom level of that idea to me is believing the best in each other. [00:24:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:08] Speaker A: Meaning, truly, we're all doing the best we can, and that means I'm not always going to do what Mo has seen as my best, and that means Mo's not always going to do what I've seen as his best. So we. But we believe in the essence and core of each other and our commitment to our marriage and our family. So we can take a beat and, like, we can, like, understand and believe that we're going to move through this season to the best of our ability and committed to doing it together. And so I can kind of give him some room, you know, like. And I would like some room. Yeah, I would like a little room to not always be 100% and I would like to give him room to not. I don't, I don't believe in this whole we always have to give 100%. I don't think that's true. I think there are seasons I can and then I am certain there are seasons I'm operating at about 50 and I'm certain Mo is operating. He's going to fill in the gap. So I think it's this like trust that together, side by side, we're doing our best and we're going to communicate when we're struggling and the other's going to be there to support us and that it can go both ways. So that is the tag teaming mindset that I think of. Like it to me it's just a humble posturing. Like just don't think too highly of yourself and, and, and like operate with a lot of self compassion and, and spouse and partner compassion. It's hard. Of course it's hard when you're both really, really struggling and sort of maybe neither one can is having the ability to rise to the occasion. But I think that happens a think it does. And even then, well then let's just take a beat on everything. Like let's rearrange some of our commitments, let's pull back in some other areas, let's figure out what can slide. Let's not, you know, hyper fixate on the things that don't have to be dealt with right now. Let's reorient our priorities because we're both in a season of struggle. So it's a long game mindset to me. And I, I, I, I am, I'm not naive. I think one of the things I'm incredibly grateful for in the life of our particular marriage is like the commitment to each other's never been in question. And I think there's a foundation there that I know is not everybody's experience and I know that's not everybody that's listening's experience. So I want to say that out loud that if, if that is shaky, it's hard to put some of these other things into play that I'm talking about. And so I don't, I just want to say that out loud to me. I'm really mindful that it is a gift to have somebody that you know is like totally 100% in and we can tag team in and out when we're struggling. What do you add to that? [00:26:57] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, you know, we had a kiddo that was in the hospital for 200 plus days. And so in some regards we were forced to get here. The forced to. You know, for two thirds of a year we were literally tag teaming morning shift in the hospital, night shift in the hospital. And it was during that season that we learned how to communicate pretty succinctly and directly and, and all the things. And so that is, it is absolutely a gift. But realizing that again, is that what I saw growing up? Is that what I envisioned marriage to be? I don't know what I envisioned marriage to be, to be honest. I think the gift was what our children were kind of allowing us to experience and grow and learn together. And so the tag teaming for sure. [00:28:07] Speaker B: And that communication piece, I think that that's easier said than done. So I think that's like a 200 day hospital stay is going to give you a great chance to practice that. [00:28:16] Speaker A: I mean, for real. [00:28:17] Speaker B: Oh man. [00:28:18] Speaker A: For real. [00:28:18] Speaker C: Yes. [00:28:19] Speaker B: And if I'm not mistaken, there was a child in the hospital, but there was also other children in the home. [00:28:24] Speaker A: So homeschooling three other kids at the same time. We were in the hospital for that many days. Yeah, we did figure out how to like talk in bullet points. And again, I think it's just, I'm not saying we did this perfectly, but I'm proud of how we navigated some of those seasons because I think we just believed the best in each other. And it was like Mo is given like everything he's gotten. So is she. So what am I gonna get mad about? Like what am I gonna pick a fight? Not picking a fight with him. He's, he's showing up, I'm showing up. And I just kept being like, I'm proud of us. Like we're doing this thing, we're working together and, and if you can have kind of that mindset about, which is why I think the marriage like siloed away from the family, I don't think it's actually as healthy. Yeah, I think you can have a much healthier, full, healthy perspective kind of marriage if you can see it as part of an inter dynamic thing happening within the life of a family system. And maybe there's some cultural aspects to that too where we're pushing against some of like thought that we might be in a very like individualistic sort of society, whereas we were like parenting kind of in a village. Mentality a little bit. And our marriage was centered in that. And, and I'm proud of the ways that we grew and changed and it's carried, it's care. Those, those things we've learned have carried us well through other seasons. [00:29:49] Speaker C: Yeah. And I tell you, you know, I officiated a wedding a couple of weeks ago and you know, what I told them is like, this is your wedding, this is your marriage. [00:29:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:59] Speaker C: It's no one else's. This isn't your parents, your grandparents, your best friends. This is your marriage and you get to fight for it. You get to be as nurturing and as loving and you know, what are the, the, the ebbs and flows and what, what's the rhythm of your marriage? Each, each marriage is going to have a different rhythm. Some of that is personality and wiring and those types of things. But like, what is your rhythm? And I think these early years helped us find a rhythm. Sometimes we say a muscle. We, we just have this, we have this muscle for our marriage that it, it's not like others and, but it is, it has been really sweet. [00:30:50] Speaker A: And you know what? I, I appreciate what you're saying because it's making me think about some of those years that were hard weren't just because of the dynamics going on in our home. It was because we were trying to contort our marriage to look like other people's MO. [00:31:04] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. [00:31:05] Speaker A: And we weren't, we weren't resting into our personalities. We were sort of believing in some like, stereotypical like marriage roles and responsibilities and we thought that things were supposed to play out a certain way. And I think you were fighting against your natural wir, I was fighting against mine and it was causing us to miss. And so I really appreciate what you're saying because some of that was overlapping some of this. It was like a self discovery season as we were trying to discover our children. We're like, oh, it's okay to step into the natural way that we were created, that we are designed and laid out in our personality and wiring and gifting, just like we're accepting that in our children. So it kind of let us hit a restart and like what we thought, quote, unquote, marriage was supposed to look like. [00:31:54] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:31:54] Speaker B: Yeah. I really appreciate that encouragement from you MO and that kind of like fleshing it out. Tana. Of just your marriage is your marriage. And so much of the like, frustration and resentment and bitterness comes from comparison. So I appreciate that every family and I appreciate the idea of eras or seasons. Like every family, it's a. It's a season. And so how can you show up for each other in this season? Like, the tag team 200 days in the hospital is different from what it looks like now with soccer practice or whatever it is. But you still have those muscles to rely on. So I really appreciate that. That's really a cool way to think about it. I think I want to push into this. So I'm assuming as you guys process things and worked things out and communicated in bullet points, I'm assuming sometimes that went well and other times, like, stuff just kind of popped up between you. Like, we talk a lot about the wal us when we think about relationships. I wonder how that has shown up in your guys's marriage. So the wall between us is this idea that as we go throughout our interactions, sometimes stuff hits us a little funny and sometimes we know why, and sometimes we got to do a little bit of reflecting to kind of find the why. But what does that look like for you guys? How have you kind of processed or leaned into that as you've been doing the marriage dance? [00:33:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I think a couple thoughts that I'm super curious to see here you can say about this mode because I guess we. We were on different sides of the wal, probably had really different perspectives as to what was happening on the other side. But we do use an image here at etc literally of two people on the sides of, like, these little boxes or squares that are there between us and have an activity where we talk about. We have to be mindful of what that stuff is. And it's like our responsibility to work through our stuff so that we can have, we hope, a freer access to be in healthy relationship with people on the other side. And so for me, some of my, like, awareness of what was going on, not surprising. I said my stress response is fight. So I had to get really comfortable with, like, my. My feelings of anger. And. And. And then when I say comfortable with them, I mean being like, I think I might. I think I might get angry when things are bothering me. And then my. My next question was, I wonder why. I wonder why that is making me feel that way. I wonder why I reacted that way. I wonder why that hurt my feelings. I wonder why I shut down like this practicing curiosity again. We were trying to do it with our kids. And then I'm like, oh, I think I get to do this for myself. And in the wondering why, sometimes I could make a line. Sometimes I could be like, oh, I think that upsets me because of this experience that happened to Me in childhood or I think that bothers me because of my family dynamics. Growing up, sometimes I had to ask myself, I wonder why for years before I was really able to have some compounding insight that really helped me untangle some stuff from my past. And so I think what I would say is, I'm still doing that exact work and having new insights side all the time. But it is, it's about attachment patterns and history and experiences and personalities and stress responses and all of that stuff. All the stuff can build up. So for me, my sign was anger. And then I had to learn how to say, I wonder why. [00:35:26] Speaker C: And like, if there's one takeaway, that's it right there. I would say is, is being comfortable asking that question. Why? Why do you feel that way? Why do you respond that way? And I'm going to be real honest, I never asked why. Like, as, as Tana was trying to figure out why all these things were, you know, the stuff between us, like, I, I never asked why. And, and I think I had to, I had to learn how to ask that question. And that was kind of my biggest growth place of beginning to say, why do I have a hard time navigating feelings? Why? Like not only navigating feelings, what is a feeling and how am I feeling? Like all those things, right? Like there was just this kind of go with the flow, easy going mo and I had to say, why, why, why am I feeling this way or why is there tension here? So, yeah. [00:36:33] Speaker B: What helped you with that process? Because I, I feel like a lot of people are probably nodding their heads right now. They're probably like, yeah, what is the feeling? I know. What is this? How did you find your way? [00:36:42] Speaker C: I mean, the story I share is, is, you know, ironically, Tana was gone one weekend and I was home with the kids and feelings chart on the wall, kid pointing at the picture, you know, the little cartoon picture. And like, I had no idea how to respond. And then, you know, I'm putting the kids to bed that night and I'm thinking we're having a sweet moment. And one of my kids are like, dad, I have big emotions and you don't know what to do with them and stormed out of the room. And I was like, I was so perplexed by all this feelings talk. And you know, Tana came home and I was kind of like, man, you're not gonna believe. And I just, I, you know, she began to just say, moose are the feelings, right? Like there's, you are a great dad. You're a Great husband. But when it comes to the feelings aspect of the universe, that is. That is a part that you don't navigate well. And so. So for me, it was beginning literally. Literally going to that chart on the wall that had cartoon characters on it and try to figure out, how am I feeling? And then got some guys and we began to navigate feelings and began to unlock some things. And I'll be truthful, I began to unlock some things and was so excited to come home and share my feelings with Tana. [00:38:14] Speaker A: I wasn't so excited to hear them. [00:38:16] Speaker C: No, no. I mean, I don't want to paint this picture. Like, oh, I did this work. And then, wow, we had warm fuzzies. I mean, I started. I mean, I remember being in the kitchen and came home from work, and you're like, how. How are you? Or how was your day? And I was like, man, it was a good day, but I'm feeling this way. And you stopped, like, you were walking toward the refrigerator. You stopped and turned around. I remember you said, saying, I have six kids that I have to navigate their feelings, and now I got to navigate yours. And, like. And I thought she was going to be proud of me that I said, you know, I feel sad or I feel. And so, again, the dynamics of marriage, of just. Well, what do you mean? Why does. Like. [00:38:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I remember that day. I think it was pivotal for us because I was realizing that my stress capacity was pretty low at that time, and I knew that, like, something had to give. And I want what I knew was on the other side of that work. I wanted the outcome, but I didn't want to do the work to get there. And I wanted you to be in a tune, emotionally present, you know, really sensitive dad to the kiddos and be able to empathize with them. But I had felt so alone in doing it for so long that I had, like, zero margin to help you along the journey, too. And I wanted it, but I didn't, man. I just wasn't in a place. I wasn't in a tender, safe place to sort of help you through it, which was hard. But I think I remember feeling obviously safe enough to be that way. And I was like, I've got to do this all day, every day. I'm working through mine, I'm working through theirs, and I need you to get some support to work through yours, because I want it, but I cannot be a safe place for you right now and only me to hold your work. [00:40:01] Speaker C: Right, right. [00:40:02] Speaker A: And that's when you started the men's group. I think you were. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up. I can't hear. I'm sad every time you walk in the door from work in the middle of dinner while I'm trying to manage the kids. And like, I'm. Thank you for knowing you're sad. What are you going to do about. That Was really where I was. And I mean, I'm not. I wish, I wish I had more capacity at that time to be more emotionally present to support you on that journey. But back to your point, Becca, we were not in a season where I had a bunch of emotional capacity to help you heal it that way. But I felt safe enough to say, hey, I'm for this, but I need some. I need some support people around you to help you. And you did something really beautiful and went out and fostered and built that community around yourself. And we're the better. We're all the better for it. So I don't. I couldn't be your person to do that work with you entirely. I think I got the benefit of it. And you, you figured out how to process and then bring that home in a way that was supportive of us together instead of asking me to be the sole support person. But it was a tricky little moment. I mean, I literally remember where we were both standing, too. And I had already been feeling some of that. Like, I had been talking to a friend. I'm so glad he's on this journey. I'm so thankful he's willing to do this work. I do not know if our marriage can survive him figuring out his feelings. And she was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was like, I don't know. I do not know. Because we were shifting the rules of engagement. And in these eras, you have to be willing to let people change. That is part of growing together. That is part of having five different marriages. As I said, is mo deserved place and space in our relationship to change, as did I. But it's really hard to change, especially when things are difficult or there's loss or grief or unknown or pain. It's really, really, really hard in that season to give your partner or spouse room to change as well. And often that's where marriages do fracture and break apart is at that spot right there where they've gone through something big. And, you know, on the other side of that, that there's growth. But are you going to grow together or are you going to grow apart? And interestingly enough, the title of our talks at that marriage conference was Together and the essence of all of this was how do you allow room to grow and change and learn and practice and make mistakes and show up the best you can and actually look up 28 years in after walking a lot of road and thinking, I think we've still got this thing in hand to the best of our abilities. We fumbled at some, but we. I hope and pray we have a long road ahead to keep on growing and changing and learning new things instead of separating and splitting apart. But it takes a lot of humility, and you have to advocate for your needs. Right. Like I had to say, mo, I can't do this. Yeah, I'm sure it hurt you that day, but I think you loved and cared for me enough to know that, like, I couldn't do all of that. So there was, like, compassion for me, too, in the middle of it. I'm guessing I was. I'm hoping. [00:43:17] Speaker C: Well, and I. I think going back to the stress responses, like, you stepped in, which was a natural instinct for you, and it wasn't for me, like, the hard conversations or the direct conversations. And for 28 years, like. Like, it has been a gift. Like, the gift of you communicating that to me and not me guessing or not, you know, all. And so me learning how to humbly receive that. Not to be defensive, not to, you know, be hurt. [00:43:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:44:00] Speaker C: But to say, man, we are both fighting for and working for same thing. The same thing. [00:44:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:05] Speaker C: And to communicate that as clearly as possible, and let's just take the next right step. Right. Like, it's this. This marriage is an invitation for change. It's an. And, you know, that's the beauty of relationship and to. And. And so I don't. I don't. Like, change does not happen overnight. [00:44:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:44:34] Speaker C: And you're not going to grow, mature however you want to, you know, know sanctification, like, whoever's. Whatever you're, Wherever you're coming to this from, you're going to happen at your own speed, your own pace. Some will navigate different seasons differently. But there's this beauty in doing it together and. And supporting one another in it. [00:45:00] Speaker B: I think I'm hearing a lot here, but I feel like one of the things I'm hearing is that there's a myth, maybe that your spouse should be all things for you, should meet every need, should fulfill every thing. And I feel like what y'all are pulling out is we need to grow and be well as individuals. And that takes. Yes, it takes marriage, work, and it takes those other support people, that village, that community. It takes. I know, for A lot of us, like, sometimes we go through seasons of therapy or counseling. Like we each have work to do and I assume, you know, 28 years in that your marriage is not consistently in a place of your. You say I'm sad and you say, I can't hear that today. I assume that, like, as y'all have gone on those journeys together, but separate, there's been seasons where you were able to show up for each other. I've seen it. So I know this. I know from like, being Yalls friend. I've seen you show up for each other emotionally. So I appreciate. Tani, you said stress capacity. It's this idea that, yes, we should show up for our spouse fully 100%. We cannot be everything to our spouse 100 of the time. That's just not reality. [00:46:13] Speaker A: It's not. [00:46:14] Speaker B: That's what I feel like I heard you kind of hinting at or saying. [00:46:17] Speaker A: Yeah. So we actually have not to do like a total major plug here. But I'm gonna do a little etc plug on our. On our website. If you look at resources, there is an image of something called like the stress capacity window. And it's this idea of what we are capable of at any given time is like what we're capable of things we may not have the capacity to do. So this is hints back. This is like this. This philosophy underneath what I was saying, which was I see I have seen mo in different seasons have different levels of capacity. [00:46:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:52] Speaker A: That doesn't mean he's not capable of it. He just may not have the capacity to do it. Yeah, that's what I was saying in the kitchen. That's the day in the kitchen. I have. Have the capability to support people growing and changing and learning and exploring emotions. I do not today, for seven people have the capacity to do that in the throes of all of the stuff we're trying to heal and work on. So that. That is this idea of like a stress window and different seasons. We have a different amount of stress that we can manage in a way that we would say, like, is managing it well. And so our windows of tolerance for what we're able to do ebb. And. And that is where I think like the best compassion lives. I think that when you understand that big idea, there is like abundance of compassion because there's so much insight to. And again, I'm going to go ahead and extend this to children and each other and self that you know, when you're like, for me, I have some physiological signs that things aren't Going, well. Well, one of them is one of my eyes will start twitching or I'll start physically dropping things. When I'm super stressed out, that's my body being like, hello, warning sign, Warning sign, alert. Right, right, right. Mo jokingly says his is he eats a lot of milkshakes. [00:48:17] Speaker C: Milkshakes. That's not stress response. [00:48:19] Speaker A: When Mo's like, I'm gonna make me another milkshake. [00:48:22] Speaker C: My stress response is sponsored by Blue Bell ice cream. [00:48:26] Speaker A: Right. So when Mo's at his stress capacity, he's enjoying milkshake milkshakes. I might have an eye twitch or a drop. Becca, I'm certain you probably have your own indicators. So I think it's just like being aware of ourself, but then taking the initiative to communicate that right to your spouse in a way that they can actually be compassionate instead of doing it in a way you're lashing out or being reactive. I mean, I remember at a very. At a marriage conference early on, Mo, we would have been married. I mean, it was like half a minute if we were so new baby married people. And we heard a line, and I don't know why. It was, like, revolutionary to me at the time. We were so young. But they were like, your spouse cannot read your mind. And I was like, oh, but if he loves me, he would know me, you know? And the whole idea there was, we want our. Our spouses and our partners to be able to intuit our needs and meet them just intuitively. And that to us is that they love us and we're seen if they can just intuitively do it. How about we flip the script on that? And how about we say it's our job. It's the same idea as a wall. It's my job to understand myself. And if I'm not getting my needs met or being able to advocate for myself, I'm going to try to communicate that. That in as clear and kind a way as I can. And if my partner or spouse changes their behavior based on that, that's actual love. That's actual sacrifice. That's actual compassion. Not that they couldn't intuit it to begin with, but that they were willing to edit themselves or change their behavior in order to show up in a supportive way. And I think that was a. I think that's one of those, like, way foundational things that we figured out. I'm not going to hold you accountable for not being able to read mind. I can't read my mind half the time. Right. So if you're walking through A partnership, and you're feeling like your needs are not intuitively being met, and there's wounding and hurt there. I don't mean to minimize that. It's fair, it's real. It's hard. But maybe we could have a moment of repair where we can come back together and say, hey, I want to own the fact that I think I've been holding you responsible or accountable or been hurt by the fact that you can't intuit my needs. I'm gonna. Can I try to practice asking for my needs to be met or communicating those or advocating or using my voice in a way that gives you an opportunity to meet my needs. And then let's don't get mad at them when they do it. [00:51:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:01] Speaker A: Let's be grateful that they're willing to do it. [00:51:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And like, negotiating needs, all of that. We talk about this idea of needs and meeting needs and having needs a lot when we think about parent child because it's like the child expresses needs. The parent meets the needs. That forms an attachment style. But in marriages, the same principles are true. Like, we have needs, and how we communicate them has a lot to do with our style. And how our partner responds has a lot to do with their style. So there's a lot there that can get. And there's. There's so much about attachment styles, but kind of like the basic, basic that we talk about is when needs are expressed. That can be done kind of of in a secure way. Like, I'm communicating it clearly and I'm telling you what I need. Or it can be a little bit of this, like, push, pulley kind of thing. Like, I'm trying to. I'm trying to make you guess what I need. Or it can be this, like, I'm gonna take my ball and go play by myself. Like, I'm gonna do camp myself. [00:51:59] Speaker C: Or passive aggressive. [00:52:00] Speaker B: Yeah, passive aggressive aggressive. And then the way that we respond to needs, a lot of times we can either get super, like, entangled up into it, like, oh, my goodness, I'm so sorry. How could I have not done that? I should have filled up your car with G I. And then on the flip side, it could be like, fill up your own dang car with gas. Like, it could be very dismissive. So there's like this, like, dance, push, pull this dance this thing that happens. I. I wonder if. If you guys have any thoughts when you're thinking about this idea of attachment when it comes to marriage? Kind of what pops to yalls mind as you think about that? [00:52:32] Speaker A: I Think it's about being aware of your own attachment style and how it's very potentially impacting the other one. And maybe I would have a warning sign. If you're both one of those styles, then like you might have some big blind spots. [00:52:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:46] Speaker A: Like if you're both like Mo and I both came into marriage more on the dismissive side. And so we, we had some really big blind spots because we weren't even really clashing with each other in that way. We were sort of synced up. [00:52:58] Speaker B: Sure. [00:52:59] Speaker A: And we were just passing that on to our children. We weren't really able to be like, oh, this is a tension spot between us. Something could be going wrong. So I think do some reading, do some learning, really ask each other. Start seeing how you sort of react or respond to difficult situations, those relational dynamics and get curious. Non judgmentally. [00:53:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:23] Speaker A: Like there's, there's attachment styles are just part of like being a human being in person. It doesn't mean you bad. Doesn't make you bad at all. It just makes you like a human being. So being like, hey, I think I lean dismissive in this way. What do you think you lean like just get curious and have some like really constructive conversations. We do have a few other podcast episodes very specific about attachment. So if this is like the first time at your hearing about that, I would go back and look. We have some really, really good ones that walk through the different attachment styles and cycle. And I think I would practice curiosity. [00:53:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I was gonna say that was super eye opening for me to, to realize my attachment style and how that was affecting my world around me. [00:54:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:08] Speaker C: Yeah. So I would absolutely echo and encourage people to, to figure that out and realize you're not stuck where you are, that there's work you can do to not continue to be dismissive like I was forever. [00:54:22] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe, maybe that's what I would want to just make sure we put a fine point on before we sort of start closing the conversation down is again another piece that's undergirding all of this is this belief and hope that things can get better and change and, and that for, for many of us that's that that belief system is going to come from all different kinds of places and spaces. That could be your, that could be your faith. Belief that there's hope to come. There could be even some understanding. And I think these things play really well together that like our brains can get and grow new neuro pathways which I don't want to get super sciency. But this particular idea Was so helpful for me because it made me say, hey, Mo and I came into marriage, marriage one way. And we're going to keep literally this is why I was like, we reframed our marriage to our marriage can be healing centered. What is healing centered? It means it's a growth mindset. How can we have a growth mindset? It may. It actually means we believe our brains can continue to change and heal and grow over time. Which means we can break patterns, we can break habits, we can communicate differently, we can, you know, get to earn secure attachment. We can sort of figure out our stress responses and take a beat and pause and respond. Respond instead of react not perfectly, but better than we are today. So this idea of change and growth mindset and this learning and unlearning and relearning and the commitment to that, it has been hugely helpful for me for again myself. And to offer that same thing to you and to know you're offering it to me is why I can say we can be in it through seasons. [00:56:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:11] Speaker A: Because I know that literally my brain still has, still has new neuroplasticity. I mean, it's neuroplastic. It has new neuro pathways that I'm going to see things differently five years from now. I'm going to have learned and grown and had new insight and you will too. So the story's not over yet is really what I think is the bottom line of that. It's a long range view of marriage in the middle of like showing up in present day day, like trying to be as emotionally present as possible right in the midst of it. [00:56:42] Speaker C: Yeah. How do you embrace today but have hope for what should to come? [00:56:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:49] Speaker B: If you had to encourage someone who's in the thick of it. [00:56:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:53] Speaker B: Marriage is hard right now. They're struggling, they're not sure how to keep going forward together. If you could zoom out, what encouragement would you give to somebody who's in that spot? [00:57:08] Speaker C: I mean, obviously this is the Empowered to Connect podcast and so we are not meant to be isolated and try to figure this out alone. I think there's the gift in community and others, whether that is some friends that can be honest and real and speak in to the reality of where you are, whether that's professional counseling, support groups, whatever that community is for you. I just think, I mean, I can't imagine not having community in those early years. But it was hard. There were times we didn't have it and it was lonely and it was hard. But there were those that came along in different Seasons. And so I'm grateful for the community we had. I'm grateful for those that could speak in. I can't. I'm going to say under underestimate is not the right word. We were not in a great place. Like, and so I don't want to minimize. Like. Like, we were in a hard place. And I think individually, we had to get to a place where we're going to grow, we're going to make changes, we're going to do our own work. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna grow and mature and, and. And understand all the, all the different components that was the wall between us. And I'm going to understand my attachment style and I'm going to understand my stress responses and I'm going to try to make sense of my history and my past and that I'm going to. I'm going to take steps to do my work. And so also realizing that everybody needs to do their work so that, that you can come together and strengthen together. [00:59:23] Speaker A: I mean, I think I would echo that. And I appreciated where you started, which was you probably need some people outside of each other to process with, because the things that you might not be able to articulate or understand or even see in yourself could be the thing that's really hurting, hurting your partner or spouse. So asking them to help you understand it might just cause more harm. So I think that getting some safe place to process yourself and then try to bring that insight back and rebuild trust with, like sharing it with each other in, in some. We talk a lot, and we haven't in this podcast, we could talk about it in this episode for so long. But this idea of scaffolding, which means like a careful and slow approach to growing skills and growing capacity, that we grow in a scaffolded way. Maybe you could put a fine point on that, Becca, and help me. You know what I'm trying to say. So even if you're trying to repair. Scaffold repair. [01:00:37] Speaker B: Baby steps. [01:00:38] Speaker A: Baby steps is the word in little steps. Yes. [01:00:40] Speaker C: Well, and we did. You don't get there overnight. [01:00:43] Speaker A: So you're not going to get out overnight. [01:00:45] Speaker C: Going to get out overnight. [01:00:46] Speaker A: That's right. So if you're in, if you've got big feelings, if you've got big stress reactions, if you've got big pain, big hurt, and you're coming to every interaction loaded for bear, then you need to go let that out someplace outside of your marriage with a friend, with a counselor, with the therapist, so you can. You have the freedom to Experience all that in a really big, honest, transparent parent. No filtered way. So you can gain insight to why and then try to bring some of that insight back to the relationship, I think is what I'm trying to say. Because the relationship may not be able to handle all of the learning and growing and figuring it out, which is what I was advocating for in the kitchen that day. That was my, like, I need you to please, please get some more people to help here. And that's takes so much stinking vulnerability. [01:01:40] Speaker C: Yeah. A lot of humility. [01:01:42] Speaker A: So much. I mean, you rounded up some guys and was like, hey, I think I need to do some emotions. Work anybody down for that. And you know what? They all were, by the way. Like, I think the other thing that we've done, and I'm, I am really grateful for this, is if we didn't have the community, we just made the community. Because we just believe that we can't be the only ones here that need to have conversations in this sort of really vulnerable, honest, transparent way. So we just went and found a few people that we felt like were emotionally safe enough that we could start growing with. And we did. And then we got to bring that independent individual growth and we became interdependent. We were probably operating really independently. And then we can sling over to co dependence really quickly in a marriage. But I would say the goal is to be interdependent, which is where we have a really healthy view of what we need and how we interact with each other. And we are also okay getting some of that support outside of. Of one another. So we want to be healthy inter dependent partners and spouses that can advocate and get help outside of the marriage. And we did. [01:02:53] Speaker B: You're saying that in order to have a healthy marriage, I gotta have healthy relationships with every person in my whole life. [01:03:00] Speaker A: I am saying that. [01:03:01] Speaker B: You are. You're saying in order to have a healthy marriage, you have to have healthy parent child relationships, you have to have healthy friendships, healthy mentors. You got to have other healthy relationships to feed into that marriage. Okay, I gotta do it. Since it's a marriage episode and it's the last question I'll ask. [01:03:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:17] Speaker B: Mo and Tana in this season, what is something about your spouse that makes you smile or that you like about each other? [01:03:23] Speaker A: Oh, I love that so much. [01:03:24] Speaker B: In this season. It doesn't have to be for all time. Don't put too much pressure on the question. [01:03:29] Speaker A: That's, that's a, that's such a sweet question. Are you ready to answer that? So Fast. [01:03:33] Speaker C: Well, I mean, there's a lot. But I'm. I'm gonna say coming off this past. Past weekend at the retreat, like, just seeing her heart for others and seeing it come out through her teaching is just. Yeah, is. Is really sweet. I've always said she. She's my favorite teacher. She's my favorite preacher. [01:04:05] Speaker A: Thank you for that. That's very sweet. Not surprising. I'm gonna go to something because it's my love language, which is acts of service. And so I think consistently and always and really right now, because I think we're both really busy and working full time, like most servant heart and how he shows up and really is a partner in the responsibilities, specifically at home. Obviously we work together, so that would make sense to be at work. But there are so many quiet things that Mo does that I think we all in our family take for granted, but I don't take those things for granted. So the way that you just serve and show up and are committed to the things that nobody else ever knows you do are the things that I most deeply appreciate. And I wouldn't say. I'd say that's always and forever, but it. It tends to be in high relief. Like. Like, in real practical terms. Our dishwasher is broken right now. We do not have a working dishwasher. I do not know why it's taking us so long to get this fixed. It's like we're both frozen about it. We can't decide if we want to repair what we have or buy new. And it's taken us far too long to actually make that decision. We're so busy. We can't make that decision. That's where we're having some decision fatigue. And he is just washing the dishes all the time. And that. That is just a very quiet thing. I deeply, deeply appreciate servant spirit. [01:05:31] Speaker B: Thank you guys so much for just sharing with us, for sharing with the folks at Together called. There will be some links in our show notes to some of the resources that we've talked about today. And thank you guys so much for sharing with you. [01:05:44] Speaker A: Becca. [01:05:45] Speaker C: Hey, thanks for having me on, guys. [01:05:47] Speaker A: I know it's been a hot minute since you've been here. I love it. [01:05:50] Speaker B: Has come back soon. All right, thank you guys so much. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, the best way to support us going forward is to subscribe. We'd love to hear from you, leave a review, drop us a comment, or email us to let us know what you hope to hear in future episodes. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at Etc, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empowered to Connect podcast. Until then, we're holding on to hope with.