[E239] Replay Let's Talk About Lying with Robyn Gobbel

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Empowered to Connect podcast, where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families and our communities. Hey, y', all, real quick before we dive in, if you are listening to this episode in real time, then you know that summer has just hit and we have something that will hopefully help you. The Summer Survival Kit is available at our website on June 3rd. It's totally free and you can find it at empoweredtoconnect shop. Go get it. Hopefully it's gonna provide a little bit of structure, a lot of connection for those endless summer days, and we hope it helps. Okay, and today we are pulling out one of our favorite episodes from the archives. Robin Goble on lying. You know, lying is one of those behaviors that when it's happening, you know, in a circumstance with a kid, it can feel so frustrating, and it brings up big feelings and assumptions within us. But Robin is going to help us in this episode figure out what's going on underneath this behavior and how can we support our kid and support the relationship we have with them because our reaction in that moment is so crucial to preserving the relationship we have moving forward. So without further ado, let's get into it. [00:01:29] Speaker B: Well, we are back today with one of our favorite people on earth, Robin Goble. And we wanted to talk about an easy, lighthearted topic that none of us struggle with with either ourselves or our kids, which is lying. So we're here. Tana and I are here with Robin today. And so, Robin, say first, obviously, just thank you for being on with us again, and we're super glad to have you here. Why don't we jump kind of right into this and talk about l and just get right into the overview of, like, what is it that we need to start with when we're looking at lying and dishonesty and understanding this with our kids and ourselves? [00:02:09] Speaker C: Well, it's awesome to be here with you both. I've been looking forward to it so much that things are hard and this, like, spot on my calendar, which is like, oh, I get to be with JD And Tony today. Yay. So really glad to be here. Yeah. Lying, I mean, same, right? Like, the families I work with, the humans I know on the planet, lying is a thing, and it's a. You know. Why? Well, there's a lot of reasons why it's a thing, but one of the reasons it's a thing is because everybody lies. [00:02:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:45] Speaker C: It's like the most normal human behavior. And I would say first, to challenge everybody who's listening Just pause and think about, like, when was the last time I lied? Even a teeny tiny lie, or lied by omission or just stated around a little truth. And most of us don't have to think too far back in our history to come up with something. Would you all say that's true about you? [00:03:19] Speaker D: Yeah. Oh, yeah, Totally. [00:03:22] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:03:22] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. [00:03:24] Speaker C: Yep. [00:03:24] Speaker D: Yep. [00:03:25] Speaker C: Me too. Yeah. So I really actually, when I think about, like, why is lying so hard for people? I mean, there's a lot of reasons, but actually I think that's probably up at the top is because we talk about things related to lying so much. We talk about respect, we talk about integrity. We talk about these, like, characterological values that we all would agree are good. [00:03:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:51] Speaker C: And lying conflicts with those. And everybody lies. And so making sense of all of that. [00:04:01] Speaker D: It's a quandary. It's a quandary. [00:04:03] Speaker C: Quandary. Yep. [00:04:05] Speaker D: Yep. [00:04:07] Speaker B: Tana. [00:04:08] Speaker D: Well, I'm just like, doc, okay, we can just hit stop recording. Because I thought surely, Robin, I thought [00:04:15] Speaker C: we were gonna get to talk about [00:04:16] Speaker D: how we as parents feel about when our children but we are starting right off with a moment of self reflection on this. It just feels a little too early for that. No, I'm just teasing. Oh, goodness. I appreciate that. I'm thinking about what does it do in me immediately to think about it first from a place of self observation. And I really did just like, oh my gosh, I just had a major paradigm shift immediately. So thank you for taking us straight there as we start this conversation. Yeah, it's important. It depersonalizes it all of a sudden. Right. It feels like we can talk about that, but how lying feels so personal and so relational breaking. But you just immediately defused it from being something that's personal to something that's human. [00:05:12] Speaker C: Yeah. Yes. It's just human. Which I do think there's a huge sigh of relief that happens when we think of it that way as well as extra kind of moment of terror. Like for me, both happen well. [00:05:30] Speaker B: And I'm even just again. I shared an episode recently, we were talking about flight as a stress response. And lying obviously pops up a lot in that conversation. And I was sharing that. I am a recovering childhood liar. I just was somebody who would impulsively lie a lot. And I didn't understand it in myself. I didn't understand why I would do that. I was really good at it and really good at. When you're really good at it, it's really difficult to then shut that valve off as you're trying to have integrity, be a good person, whatever word you wanna label that on. And so one of the things that I love. And you talked about this in a podcast you had recently, Right. And one of the sentences that you said, you just said, we only lie because it doesn't feel safe to tell the truth. And I thought maybe we just put that on repeat for 30 minutes in the podcast and just. We all say that over and over again. Because at its core, that's. That's the feeling that I would have inside. Is that, like, ooh, I can't be honest here. Because this is not. This is not a space for honesty in this moment. [00:06:31] Speaker C: Right. [00:06:32] Speaker B: Do you want to elaborate a little bit more on that? [00:06:35] Speaker C: Yes. I mean, it's. I think it's hard to take something as nuanced and complex as lying, because there's lots of things that are underneath lying, lots of reasons why we lie, and then distill it down to something like, we only lie because if it doesn't feel safe to tell the truth, it feels like, how can those two things possibly make sense? Like, how can something so big and complex as lying have just one origin? But if we pause and really got quiet with ourselves and thought about, again, times we've lied, times our kids have lied, times we've watched other people lie, it's like there's really no other reason aside from hat. Without question. I do think kind of creating this other version of reality that we like to live in can be a bit of a habit. But even that has its origins. And, like, we're only not acknowledging what's true and real because something about that doesn't feel. And I use the word safe. I know for some folks that feels like a hard word. I mean, we could say good. Um, we can really destructive. Deconstruct the word safe. But there's. There really is no other reason. Why wouldn't we just say something straight up? And also, a lot of us are told in very clear ways that we're supposed to be lying about certain things. Right? That, like, some things don't get talked about. When people ask, you know, we can just take the easy cliche like, how do I look in this dress? Or whatever, you know, like, there's so many ways where we've been culturally conditioned to be polite, to be respectful, to not tell people how we feel because it's not respectful. That. And then. And then to ask, how are we supposed to know when lying is okay when it's not okay? It just gets really quite complicated. [00:08:35] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. From a stress response place. Like when we think about the conditions in the body that can cause that impulsive lying, like that almost automatic response type, like what is actually happening when those responses are coming up. [00:08:57] Speaker C: So when there's. Especially if we're gonna give like a straight up question, let's put it in my life. Did you take out the trash last night? Straight. Just such a simple straight up question that's also really easy to find out the answer to. But regardless, we all know that that doesn't actually really matter. [00:09:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:21] Speaker C: Did you take out the trash last night? Yes, I did. Okay. And then 10 minutes go by and you look out, you're like, well, no you didn't, because it's still there and the trash cans are already come. And now we have to deal with this full trash can all the way until next week. All those kinds of things. Why would, why wouldn't you just say, oh, shoot, no, I forgot. Right. Well, the first reason that comes to mind for me is when we're stressed, when the brain has a stress response, which we're going to have a stress response because we know that the answer to this question is going to make the other person unhappy. Yep. Righteously or not. Right. Like, I'm happy to acknowledge that as a parent, it makes sense for me to be irritated if an important chore didn't get done. Like, that's not an unreasonable response in myself. Right. So my kid knows, like, oh, I'm like, someone's going to be unhappy if I tell the truth. And the brain then that stress response of this is a relational rupture. This is someone's disappointed in me. This is like, somehow I have to find a way to regulate through those relational pieces. Which is actually a pretty tall ask of anybody. [00:10:39] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:40] Speaker D: In a split second, by the way. [00:10:41] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. [00:10:42] Speaker D: In a split second. I gotta produce the answer right now. [00:10:46] Speaker C: Right. Go ahead. Sorry. No, no, that's exactly right. Because having somebody be unhappy with you, like triggering somebody else's stressed response, which I do. If I say, oh, no, I didn't take out the trash. [00:10:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:59] Speaker C: Now I'm in danger. Yep. Right. Because stressed out humans are dangerous. That is ultimately, when it comes down, like our biology, humans are the most dangerous everything to other humans. There's nothing more dangerous than a human to another human. [00:11:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:15] Speaker C: And so if I'm about to do something that I know is going to trigger somebody else's stress response, I'm pretty motivated not to do that or at least push it off. Right. Because the stressed brain Loses time. Meaning I am really only able to care about what happens in the next moment. I can't care about what happens in five minutes or tomorrow. And we know this by science and the way our brain processes time. But I'm a lot more concerned with what happens in the next moment. Even if in three moments it's going to get worse because that. That will make that person even more stressed that I lied. [00:11:59] Speaker D: Right? Yeah. [00:12:00] Speaker B: Right. [00:12:00] Speaker D: I think that is amazing. Just even saying that the stress brain isn't. That isn't having like a thoughtful contemplative, like, you know, using their executive functioning response in that moment. Because what happens to us as a parent or an adult, if we're just putting this in an adult child relationship, relationship context, a kid lies, and you're thinking, well, you know, the ramifications of that are worse than if you had just told the truth. Like, it seems so logical to us because we're thinking about cause and effect. That's future thinking. Cause and effect is a future state. Right. And I'm hearing you say that isn't available to them in that moment. [00:12:42] Speaker C: Not in that moment. I mean, so, yeah, there's that cause and effect piece. Like, I have to pause. There's a lot of pausing that would have to happen. Be like, it would take my mom about 10 seconds. Like, why did she even ask me to look out the window and notice I didn't take the trash to the road, so I might as well just fess up. Well, first of all, that actually does take a lot of time in regulation to pause and think all of that through. And in additional. Then the next skill I'd have to have in order to risk that is regulating through somebody being unhappy with me. Even if it's not dangerous. Unhappy. Right. Like, even if I know, like, you know, my kid's never been in danger because he forgot to take all the trash. Yeah, we're irritated by it, but it's not dangerous. [00:13:28] Speaker B: Right. [00:13:29] Speaker C: But that it takes a lot to regulate through the relational rupture that happens when somebody is even justifiably frustrated with us. It takes a lot to regulate through the feeling of disappointment. I've disappointed somebody else. Disappointment as a feeling that we don't spend enough time giving a lot of care and attention to. So we don't have a lot of capacity to regulate through. So there's a lot of complex things that go into. Did you take out the trash? [00:14:01] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:14:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:05] Speaker D: So if we as the grownup in that situation have at least some understanding of what's happening in that moment, like, if we can bring some understanding, what do you, you know, how is a different way maybe to navigate that moment with a kiddo that you are just wanting to check in on a chore? Like, do you have any, like, ideas for sort of where we could go instead? [00:14:32] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. And I have lots of ideas and there are lots of really good ideas that I should use more in my parenting too. On this is like if we're doing [00:14:41] Speaker D: our very best today, which we know [00:14:43] Speaker C: is, you know, a little unlikely. Just a little unlikely. Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:48] Speaker D: I love it. [00:14:49] Speaker C: Same. I mean, this one is tricky. But the first thing that I'd say, and I know your listeners have heard this before, is don't ask a question if you know the answer to it. Right. There's no reason actually for me to ask my kid if he took out the trash. In a way, it's kind of lazy on my behalf because it really is quite simple for me to see if he did or didn't. Now, it's not an unreasonable thing to ask. Like, hey, did you remember take the trash out last night? Like, that's a reasonable thing to ask somebody you're in relationship with. But if you know that the next thing that's going to happen is a lot of dysregulation or the opportunity for a lie, then that's. It just is an easy thing to not ask. Right. To just actually look and then say, hey, buddy, it's Thursday morning. Trash comes on Thursdays at our house. The trash isn't to the road again. What's up with that? How did that happen? What do we need to do different? Because it's frustrating when the trash doesn't get taken out. And now we don't have room for this week's trash. How do we work together to figure out a plan to, you know, make sure the trash is taken out? So like when I'm at my very best parenting. Yeah, that's a great example. Like just don't ask and then work together. Yeah. But yeah, let's say you do ask and then there's a lie or there's a big reaction. And I think for me the most helpful thing is from my kid can't pause in those moments. He's already demonstrated he can't. [00:16:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:29] Speaker C: That means I have to do it. I have to be the more regulated one. Take a breath, pause. It's a bummer. Yep. Sometimes resent how much I have to be the grown up. [00:16:43] Speaker D: That's the truth today. [00:16:45] Speaker C: I know, I know. And pause. And you know and then do what I need to do internally. I mean, what I do next really varies on how did my kid. Did my kid. Why did he throw himself on the floor? Which he'll do when he's unhappy. Like, what should just happen as far as, like, how do I respond to that? But a moment of pause, which is, whoops, I sort of set him up for that. And somehow there's a dynamic in our relationship that he would rather risk a relational rupture that comes through lying, then he would rather risk the relational rupture that comes through oops, I didn't do what I was supposed to do. And that's just a place for me to pause and get curious about, like, why is that? [00:17:38] Speaker D: Yeah, I have. I don't mind, you know, doing a little bit of self reflection here on this particular episode. For those listeners that may or may not know. We have a fairly large family and some. We have older young adult children, and then we have some kids that are younger. And as a parent, I do think that this, like, what, Robin, you just so beautifully articulated, you know, in like, three minutes, just has taken me, like, I don't know, a decade to work through and a long process. That curious piece has been an incredibly long journey for me. And I'm thinking we could maybe all relate to that in different ways as we are processing how to pause and show up for our kiddos and ourselves. Well, in those moments. But lying in particular has been a personal parenting stress spot for me. And a lot of, like, thinking back to my own past and history and my own growing up and my family dynamics and, like, why is that moment of, like, risking telling me the truth? Like, why is it so painful to me when it doesn't happen? And, you know, the answers weren't easy to come by. Like, a lot of, like, I don't know why this bothers me so bad, but it does. And I am not. I am not a safe place. I could say it was for multiple kiddos, but one of my children in particular, and we've had a lot of conversations about it. Now, on the other side of the times that mom did not respond well, tons of repair have come initiated by me as I've like, oh, my goodness, this is so deep in me. And it would be a situation where my husband would be in the same scenario and maybe a child would. Would lie about something, and I could see him navigate through it with, like, more calm, more regulation, like, more ability to show up and problem solve. And I just got stuck and so reactionary and Like, I went into major self protection mode in that moment. I got so dysregulated, and I just knew I was. Because I could look at him and be like, well, he's not. The line's not okay. But he isn't absolutely losing his mind right now, and I am. What's going on in me? And I wish that I could say that the answer was fast and easy, but it wasn't, Robin. It wasn't. And I didn't. I don't mean to over share, but I didn't come to my, like, big, huge epiphanies until I started seeing it in a friendship. Like something happened in a friendship that went a little bit sideways. And I felt the same feelings come up and I was more clear and level headed to pull that apart because it wasn't a parent child dynamic. And I was like, ooh, why is that impacting me that way? And then I'm like, oh, look at my past. That's what's happening in my relationship with this kiddo. You know, it just. It's just. It's not easy. We can say it. But my goodness, it's so layered, right? Does that resonate with either one of y'? [00:20:57] Speaker C: All? For sure. Well, it's so layered. So in lying, I think lying and food lying and food issues and the work that I do with families, layered, they. There's a way that, at least in Western culture, we have made connections between things that aren't connected, which is like, if my kid eats the way that I want them to eat, I'm a good parent, essentially. When it comes down to it, yes, I'm good at mothering, I'm good at caregiving. If my child eats in this way other people determine is good. And then I think that's really true about lying. Of all the things we wouldn't want somebody outside our family to know about or to experience from our child, right? It's for them to lie. There's something about the way that we've conflated a very normal behavior with integrity, with character, with it, meaning this person doesn't respect me, and if I don't. And then we can start talking about all sorts of bigger things regarding just Western culture and what it means [00:22:11] Speaker B: to [00:22:11] Speaker C: be respected and why that's important, and the fear that comes up when we're not. Um, I also think it, like, for me, when I'm lied to or when I experience somebody lying to me, it. It took me a long time to unpack that as well, because I actually start to feel like, my own reality is being called into question. And when my reality is being called into question, I start to feel like myself. Like my existence is getting called. Like, am I real? Which that sounds bananas, I think, to say out loud, like, when your kid is like, yeah, yes, I took out the trash and it's like, and now I'm worried that I don't exist. Right? Yeah. Oh, come on, please. And maybe in that exact situation, it doesn't, you know, but there is absolutely situations that have come up for me. And then being a therapist, I'm. Yeah. I'm just required to be constantly looking at the stuff because, believe it or not, clients sometimes lie to me. [00:23:22] Speaker D: Oh, that's so interesting. [00:23:26] Speaker C: And so, yeah, that is where I discovered the hurt part of me was. It's like, what if you're. What if that person is actually right and I'm wrong? Like, what if. [00:23:37] Speaker D: What does that mean? [00:23:38] Speaker C: They're not lying? Maybe they're telling the truth. Even though I know the trash doesn't take it to the road. But what if. What. And I'm like, if I can't depend on my own experience in reality, I. And I know this sounds wild to some people. It's like I start to question, like, do I exist? Am I here in the world? [00:23:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:57] Speaker C: Okay, well, now it makes a lot more sense. Why lying? Yep. Create such a huge reaction. [00:24:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:06] Speaker C: Yep, yep. [00:24:08] Speaker B: Well, and the two of you are sharing your. Your internal responses. I think, because that was such a thing for me, I immediately feel this grief of, like, I have not provided a safe place for my kid. And now. And before they've even gotten to the end of their lie, I'm. I've already got them in jail 10 years from now. You know what I mean? I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this means. Yeah, this means they're going to be on the street for. For the rest of their lives. Holy crap. Yeah. [00:24:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:24:33] Speaker B: Like, and so I like. And it might be jail. It might be no one's gonna like you. It might be you're stuck living with us forever because you've, you know, you're an outcast in society and you have to stay inside because no one can trust you. Like, and all of those fears are things either that were, like, projected on me early on growing up or things that I just desperately don't want them to have to feel for themselves as they grow older. Right. I don't want them to have to feel. Feel like they can't be trusted because I know how that feels. [00:25:01] Speaker D: Right. [00:25:02] Speaker B: I don't want them to feel like nobody will listen to you or believe your stories because I know how that feels. And I, conversely, as an adult, know this amazing freedom and joy of being able to be in a relationship where, you know, we've done the work. For me to say something really disappointing and to be met with grace or with love in that or to be met with like, this pisses me off. I still love you. But this is hurtful, authentic. And what that moves me to is deeper levels of honesty. Right? So I think what's so funny is we always set out to talk about how do we address these issues. And almost every time, and I would say every time there's some component of it, but almost every time, the first thing is getting our own stuff out of the way. And when our own stuff is out of the way, like when I'm in my right parenting mind, I am totally unfazed by lying. It's like I've got the kryptonite like in my hand because like, that was my thing. I'm kind of like, this is all you got. Come on, that wasn't even good. I can pick that apart immediately. And like, it allows me to then be patient and go, man, I know that fear. Hold on. Hey, let me. Let's rewind. I know that's not true. And I'll try to debunk it right out of the gate to say, but before you try to cover it up, I want you to know, like, this isn't even about that. And I'll try to go straight to the heart of the issue. And we talk about scaffolding all the time. And I think the. And you know, there are 10,000 things that I do not do well or I impulsively react to with my kids. I think because of this having been an issue with me specifically, there has been some ingrown, like, ingrained patience that I've got toward it. But this scaffolding of like, let me not even try to get you to the point where you are doing the hard blunt, like, my check is in pain, honesty. But let me go, let me show you right away I know what happened or I know it isn't true and just take the pressure off of you. You don't even have to lie. Cause I know, I know that this is not true. So what actually happened? Just know you can tell me this, like, and I'm not here upset. I want to know because I want to. And then like you kind of lay out like your parents job. Like I want to be able to help you grow into a person that is healthy and whole and doesn't have to feel this pressure to make stuff up to be accepted or whatever. And so, you know, sometimes ends with doubling or tripling down on a dumb lie and you're just like, all right, okay, well whatever. And then sometimes you get these beautiful like moments of all right, I'll tell you. You know, and so, you know, all of us have this self examination to do to realize why the reaction wells up in us the way that it does before we begin to then diagnosis. But then within our kids, lying is the faceplate that's happening. But there's always a deeper back end thing causing it. [00:28:03] Speaker C: Right. [00:28:04] Speaker D: I appreciate the fact that. I think even all three of us are great examples at how like something different's happening in each one of us in that interaction. Like the way that we are showing up in that moment, it's individual and it is so deeply tied to dispersenality and wiring and history and every one of our curious. When we're curious with ourselves and we come to some deeper self awareness, probably going to lead us down some different reasons why we feel the way that we do in that moment. So I think our strategies for how we move through that moment are probably pretty unique as well. Right. Would you like, what are your thoughts about that, Robin? Like, absolutely. [00:28:49] Speaker C: Yeah. We all are gonna have our own pieces about like what's hard about this, what's tender about this. And I also wanna make sure it's really clear that simply because something's hard or tender around us or sometimes we do react in certain ways. Like it doesn't necessarily make our kids lying our fault. [00:29:09] Speaker D: Right. [00:29:10] Speaker B: Or okay, right. [00:29:12] Speaker C: Well, no, no, no, that for sure too. That's another, that's almost another western culture thing too. That's like black and white thinking. Yeah, it's like, no, no, no. To be clear, the behavior still isn't cool. [00:29:25] Speaker B: Sure. [00:29:26] Speaker D: Yep, that's right. [00:29:27] Speaker C: And it doesn't have to blow us up. Yeah, it doesn't. We don't have to like freak out about it. And there's, you know, there's this thing I'm sure y' all come up against too. When working with such mindful, thoughtful, curious parents who would be listening to a podcast like this. It's like it. All of a sudden it becomes really easy to be like, oh, this is my fault. [00:29:51] Speaker D: Yes. I was going there. I was like, we've got to talk about that. Because that is where I go, I know better. I should be able to create the perfect Scenario where my child feels so safe that they should be able to tell me everything. So if they lie, I didn't create felt safety. [00:30:06] Speaker C: Wa. [00:30:06] Speaker B: Wa. [00:30:07] Speaker D: And then. Then I'm in a different place in my head. Right, right. [00:30:11] Speaker C: Yeah. We've created this really mixed up idea of what felt safety is personal, which is I can't. I'm not in charge of anybody else's experience of safety. I can offer safety. I am not responsible. I cannot be in charge of if that person receives it. [00:30:31] Speaker D: Amen. [00:30:32] Speaker C: That doesn't take me off the hook for doing intensely hard work to make sure that I'm as safe of a human as possible in these relationships that I'm deeply committed to. [00:30:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:45] Speaker C: Like, I don't work really hard to be in relationship with the male lady. I don't have to. I never come into contact with her. Very rarely do I come into contact with the male lady. I work really, really hard in my deeply intimate relationships, and that's my job. That's my responsibility. That's my commitment to these humans that I've said, I will be in this intimate relationship with you. That doesn't make it my fault. [00:31:13] Speaker B: Totally, totally. [00:31:15] Speaker C: Right. And some of that, I think, is just human parenting. [00:31:18] Speaker D: Right. [00:31:18] Speaker C: That again, my kid doesn't have a significant trauma history besides being raised by me, and he does occasionally lie. And my husband and I can do the really important work of looking at, like, how have we set this up? Like, how have we set up these dynamics in our family? Where the other day he said that he left his wallet at home so that he didn't have to drive when it's kind of like, well, did he or did he just really not want to? And for some reason it didn't feel okay for him to just say, I really don't want to drive right now. And how did we contribute to that? Like, how have we created a scenario in which he would rather say, but also, it's not our fault, and also he's human. Like, maybe in that moment he just really felt like not dealing with anything except I left my wallet at home. Okay. We don't have to. Like, this isn't pathological. [00:32:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. [00:32:22] Speaker D: I feel like I'm hearing this, like, oh, I don't know. It's always a little bit of both and. Right. [00:32:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:28] Speaker D: Evaluate my contribution. Own what's mine to own and release what isn't. And we can say that in, like, a little quick, little cute summary. And that's like, holy smokes. That's like, everything. Right. [00:32:45] Speaker B: Well, and I, you Know what we're talking about too? Like, it is so complicated. It is both. And because sometimes our kids have intense trauma histories that do produce this fear mountain that is like, I can't conquer this. Sometimes our kids or we lie about dumb stuff for no conceivable reason at all. Right. The wallet thing is a perfect example. I mean, the other night there was. Let me think of a more generic way to say this. There is food evidence in someone's room, in someone's areas that I was like. And I trapped my question. [00:33:27] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:33:28] Speaker B: Did you go to a bar last night and like, no. And I was like, it's touching you while you tell me that, like the, the rapper is on. So I think the, you know, there's those moments where that was not connected to some, like, scary, like, I better just say no because I can't face the church. Like, that was just kind of like an impulsive and that, that falls more on this ADD side, right? Of like, sometimes there's this impulsive, like, I can't. I see it going out and I'm like, oh, no, no, that's not true. Oh, it's gone. Like, I can't. I already said it too fast. I didn't want to face it. I thought maybe they'd turn away and [00:34:02] Speaker C: not see this, whatever. [00:34:03] Speaker B: And so I think it is, you know what we say so often on here, we become students of our kids, we get curious all that. We brace ourselves and we have to understand these. The residual effects of trauma, stress, adversity do exist and can produce these things. But again, there's not this generic, like formula. We can't just whip out our playbook in the moment and go, aha. Got it. That's why this is happening now. And so if we can become students, it does help us to be able to nuance those arguments because sometimes there is, as a kid, you don't want to face what you know is going to be a hard sit down conversation from your parents since you're like, I'm just going to tell them that it's at school and I don't care, you know, whatever. And so in those situations, I think, you know what, and one of the things that you said, Robin, on your episode, just, you know, shift the focus in those situations into just offering connection regulation felt safety, right? Like that's kind of the back end, like beginning to rebuild after this is connection regulation felt safety. And if we can reinforce those things, hopefully, hopefully as we go that floor gets higher and higher of trust that exists, you know, within our, our relationships. [00:35:17] Speaker D: So I have a super practical question because I'm really curious, Robin, what your thoughts are about this. So we've talked some in the past and I've heard people say, and I've even thought about doing it, and it kind of works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. But let's say you're in a situation where, you know, maybe a kid lies about something and you know that it's not the truth. So however you got there, maybe you trapped them. Maybe you. You could just tell by their reaction they probably weren't telling you the truth or whatever. Maybe it is a kiddo that might tend towards impulsive react actions or responses. What is your thought about like a gentle, like, hey, sweetie, would you like, like a minute or two to think about if you, you know, want to give mom a different answer to that? Or like, what do you think of, like, how do you feel? Like that is a successful way to navigate that moment. Would you make some other suggestions for how to move relationally towards some truth telling while creating felt safety or giving them. Modeling them having a moment to pause and letting them have a minute to decide if they are safe to tell the truth. So I don't know. Do you have any thoughts about that? [00:36:27] Speaker C: Yeah, it's kind of an annoying thought, which. It just really depends. It just depends on someone. I mean, I do absolutely. Like, the pause before saying something is a really important skill we want our kids to have. [00:36:44] Speaker D: Right. [00:36:44] Speaker C: Like, I want myself to have more of a pause. It probably be good if my husband had more of a pause. Like, these are good life relational skills and very, very valid things to want to teach our kids in the moment of, you know, for some kids that are temperamentally, you know, set one way, saying something like, hey, I'm going to give you just a couple of minutes to think to just have a pause. I'm gonna come back, we're gonna try this again. That could go all sorts of different ways depending on the kid. Like, for some kids, that would just. The shame would crater them totally. And that could look actually like shame or it could look like rage, because that's a great way to respond to shame. It could look like digging heels and even more like, I am. I don't need any time. I don't need a dress. [00:37:35] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:37:36] Speaker C: I am telling the truth, you know, So I think there's a lot of great ideas out there. And I think for a lot of kids with certain temperaments, with how dysregulated they are in that moment with what their history has been with that parent of other kinds of repairs that were similar to that. That. That could be a great experience. Like, hey, hey, honey, I'm gonna come. Like, I'm gonna go grab a drink and I'm gonna come back and just a couple minutes, we're trying this all over again. And let's just see. Well, let's just see what happens then. For some kids, maybe that would work for some. Yeah. And then for some it wouldn't at all. And I think catching moments outside of dysregulation or outside somebody being in trouble, to really narrate through. Noticing people in movies who have taken a pause, Noticing other people in your life who have taken a pause before they respond. Narrating out like, you know, when we download our. Our Days at the dinner Table, and, you know, I was having this conversation with my boss and they said this, and I really noticed I had to take a breath and pause and think hard before I answered it. That was hard. You know, like, a lot of more inner dialogue. Sharing can be super helpful just to help. Just share. Like, these are, like normal human experiences. This isn't about you being a bad kid. This is about life and trying to figure it out. So I think, absolutely, that could be a great thing for some kids, and then for some it's not. And you know how we know. We try. [00:39:19] Speaker D: I know. And you pay attention in the moment. That's right. That's right. [00:39:23] Speaker C: Yeah. And I really think with lying, you know, one thought I had two thoughts come to me. Let's see if I can actually articulate them. One of them is, we do have to get really honest with ourselves about how honest we are in the world and even cult. Like, I've lived in different cultures where there is a culture of lying. There's a culture of smile, happy face. There's a. There's a culture of everything's fine here. There's a culture of we don't talk about hard things. We don't. Yeah, we just all pretend everything's fine. And I've seen those. I've seen that kind of culture in families and in communities. And I do think there's a place that doesn't make it our fault, but I do think we have to be super honest about. Do we have a culture in our family of saying things that are hard? Like, I really don't like what you've cooked for dinner today. [00:40:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:31] Speaker C: Yeah, that is hard. I really don't want to eat this. For example, on my best days, my kid's Allowed to say, I don't want to do XYZ chore. Yep. That doesn't mean he doesn't do it. Sure. [00:40:47] Speaker D: Just allowed to tell you his feelings about him. [00:40:49] Speaker C: Absolutely. He's even allowed to be like, I don't want to do it now. Can I do it in an hour? And I know that that can get really tricky. I'm not necessarily suggesting. I'm just. What I'm saying is we have to get really honest with ourselves. Is. What is the. Do the people in our family feel like we can really say real things? Because sometimes when we're dealing with something tricky with our kid, we have to pause and ask ourselves that question and be like, I think. I don't. This isn't our fault, but I can see how we've unintentionally contributed to this. Yeah. [00:41:31] Speaker B: Gosh, that's. [00:41:31] Speaker C: That's hard. But, you know, the other thing I've thought about a lot lately, probably because of my own personal life, is that when it comes right down to it, the behaviors in our kids that are making us really stressed or unhappy or triggered or whatever, is because the serve and return of relationship that we're longing for is getting messed up. Everything is about that. Everything is about that. [00:41:54] Speaker D: I could not agree with you more. [00:41:55] Speaker C: The serve and return of relationship doesn't involve lying. Yep. [00:42:00] Speaker B: Right. Right. [00:42:01] Speaker C: And if I thought of every behavior in another human that. Let's just say it pisses me off. Yeah. It would be that the serve I sent to them wasn't returned in the way that I was hoping for. Yep. [00:42:16] Speaker D: Yes. I mean, that's it. That's it. [00:42:20] Speaker B: We all exit. [00:42:21] Speaker C: And it's fair to be upset about that. [00:42:24] Speaker B: Right. [00:42:24] Speaker C: Like, it's fair to be like, hey, I served you myself. Like, I. When I say serve, I mean like, that energetic. Like, I volleyed something to you. Yeah. [00:42:35] Speaker D: Yeah. And I presented an opportunity for connection. [00:42:39] Speaker C: Yes. Yes. [00:42:40] Speaker D: I presented an opportunity for connection. Yeah. [00:42:43] Speaker C: And instead of volleying it back to me, you chucked it in my face, or you grabbed it and ran away, or you slammed it on the ground or you kicked it back. You know what I mean? Like, there's all these energetic ways that serve and return gets thwarted. That really is what hurts. That's really good. [00:43:02] Speaker B: And I think, you know, if I'm. So my person immediately goes, oh, this is. This is hard. So what's the silver lining here? And I think the silver lining here is that that doesn't mean the game's over. Right? [00:43:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:43:16] Speaker B: Like, I think that's. That's the thing for us to remember in that situation, like, I. I served the ball to you. You hit it over the fence. Not in a good way, like, but [00:43:27] Speaker D: we're both still on the court. But we're both still on the court. [00:43:29] Speaker B: We're still there. We'll go find another ball. We'll start over again, you know, now [00:43:32] Speaker D: I think that we'll go find that one together. How about that? [00:43:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:35] Speaker D: We'll go on the hunt for the one that's lost. [00:43:37] Speaker B: That's great. And I think that what. What we probably grieve as parents the most is just that sigh of, like, and I have to be the one to lead this, you know? [00:43:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:43:48] Speaker B: Like, because if we want our kids to lead it one day, like, they've got to see what it looks like, you know, and so. And sometimes we just don't have energy for that. But I. I love this, as kind of our. Like, a closing thought to this conversation is that, you know, our. Our job is to. To continue offering ourselves up through. For connection and then helping our kids. You know, we're giving tennis lessons to carry this analogy out, you know, and teaching them how to return it. And if we can. If we can do that graciously, it doesn't mean that the ball isn't going to, you know, hit the net or get slammed down or set on fire or whatever. It just means that we can continue to come back and try again and start again and keep on playing. So. [00:44:31] Speaker D: And the tenderness that's happening in that moment, like, I'm thinking about. Robin, you used the word tender earlier, and I don't use that word very often when I think about these situations, but it resonated really deeply with me because that's what's happening. It's a moment of vulnerable tenderness where we're saying we're available to you and we're in relationship with you, and you have some power in this relationship to navigate where we go. Because I'm being tender with you as I serve up a moment of connection. And so, you know, I think it's. You know, you are always so compassionate to create such safe places for caregivers in the work that you do. Robyn and I deeply appreciate that because we do have feelings. You know, we are human in the middle of navigating these relationships. And so. So the tender places in us, it's okay to honor those and, like, name them and hold space for them and be. Just be kind to ourselves. [00:45:30] Speaker C: Yeah, we have to. I mean, I really. [00:45:32] Speaker D: So I thank you for that. Yeah. [00:45:37] Speaker C: Yeah. Yes. You're so welcome. I do. I. I love these parents so much, and I do. I watch sometimes. Then it's so easy to shame ourselves. Like, oh, I know the right way to do this, or I shouldn't have feelings that the serve wasn't returned, because I know why it's hard for my kids to return it. Both can be true. It can be so hard that, just like you said, it's vulnerable even with our kids, to offer ourselves up for connection when we don't get it back in the way that we're longing for, it hurts. And that gets to be true as well as it gets to be true that we can understand why our kid is struggling with this. Like, they both are there. [00:46:20] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:46:21] Speaker B: So true. Gosh, Robyn, thank you so much. This has been awesome. And I mean, we, you know, I hope, you know, you're. You're unofficially contractually obligated to come on with us a lot of times and, and just keep doing this off and on. So. But yeah, we appreciate you so much. [00:46:39] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:46:40] Speaker D: Before, is there anything you want to share, like, with our listeners as we're closing, where they can find you any fun projects you're working on, like, any shameless plug for how to find you in the world? [00:46:53] Speaker C: Yeah, you bet. So I also podcast so they can find that. Of course. Parenting after trauma. I have got so much just free resources on my website. That's just robingobel.com I do have my, you know, virtual community for parents of kids with big behaviors. Most kids have experienced trauma, though not all of them. That's called the club, and club is open for new members periodically. We're sort of in the middle of a facelift right now. Like, we're kind of built. I'm saying we're building a new clubhouse. Oh, I love that. As soon as the clubhouse is done, we'll be welcoming new families in again. And it's just like, I think the most brilliant parents in the whole world are there. Brilliant meeting, like, their light, like, brilliance in a light kind of way. They're just the most amazing, amazing humans. So, yeah, that's where you can find me. [00:47:48] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, we'll link all that in the show notes and we will see you next time. [00:47:57] Speaker A: We hope you enjoyed the episode. If you're interested in learning more, head to empoweredtoconnect.org for our library of resources. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at etc. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empowered to Connect podcast. In the meantime, let's hold on to hope together.