[E180] Nurturing Through the Ages and Stages: Toddler Years!

[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to the Empowered to Connect podcast, where we come together to discuss a healing, sensitive approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families, and our communities. I'm JD Wilson, and I am your host. And today on the show, we've got two very likable people we've known for a long time. Friends of the program, Shane and Mindy, are going to join us today to talk about their journey into the world of adoption and parenting. Learning to nurture toddlers if you are the parent of a toddler, you know that this is one of the most challenging phases of life, both physically, emotionally, and otherwise, because of all the different challenges that come with parenting toddlers again, both physical and emotional. And when you add learning to parent after trauma in that equation, it can feel at times overwhelming and even unbearable. And so Shane and Mindy have walked a long road parenting. They've got four kids. They're going to share their story and a lot more of their thoughts and their experiences when it comes to parenting toddlers. You are going to love them. They're so fun. One disclaimer I will give you is that right before recording this episode, I am recording from our home studio because we've got a kid sick. But more importantly, I got a phone call that we had a kid having an asthma experience at a school right before we were supposed to record. So I was actually late jumping into this conversation today. So you will hear me come in about halfway through. Becca is going to start the episode off. So it sounds more abrupt in the beginning is because I was missing from the first part of it, and so I jumped in a little later. Shane and Mindy were really fun to be with and enjoyable today, so you're going to love being with them. Here they are now, Becca, Shane and Mindy and then me in a little bit. Here we are. [00:01:56] Speaker B: So, as we said, we're in this series on nurturing, and we're really looking at different aspects of that. So we got to hear some great things last week about nurturing babies. We're looking ahead to kind of continuing the series all through young adulthood. And we have Shane and Mindy here today to talk about what it was like to nurture kids during those toddler preschool years, which if you're listening and you're in that season right now, you're probably like, yes, please someone validate how I'm feeling because it's such a hard season or can be. There's just so much happening. There's so much growth that's happening. So as we jump into that I wonder, Shane and Mindy, if you'll just share with people a little bit about yourselves and your family and how you even came to know. Empowered to connect. [00:02:45] Speaker C: We were talking right before, trying to figure out where we reconnected with you years ago. We're both from the northeast. We came to Memphis in 2010, and we started having our kiddos in 2011. And so we, at 24 years old, started our adoption journey, and we adopted a little boy at two months old. And then I was at the same time pregnant. And so we had these two little babies that were nine months apart, and that was also Shane's first year of medical school. So. [00:03:40] Speaker B: We were just really doing it all. [00:03:45] Speaker C: And then we had, our third daughter was born the last year of medical school, and then we moved back to the northeast for residency. And the last year of residency, our son was born in 2020, and we came across MSCC in 2016. So our oldest was three, and I'd just given birth to our third kiddo, and we were having a really hard time. And I had a group of mom friends that we would get together and I would just be crying, just so desperate, know, just sharing with them what was going on and how we were having such hard time. One of the mom's friends said, have you guys heard of MFCC? And she gave me Connor and Mo's number, so we jumped in. We were doing the eight week parenting class. We started counseling there. Our oldest started therapy there. So it was like everything all at once. [00:05:05] Speaker B: And we were kind of joking before we hit record today of just, like, how much they don't prepare you for when you're going through the adoption process. So I wonder if you can even remember. I'd be curious, Shane, if you think back to you were 23, 24, you're starting medical school, you're going through this process. Do you remember what you thought it would be like or kind of, what did you have in mind? [00:05:30] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. I'll try not to talk for an hour straight without breathing. Yeah. So we had a very idealized picture in our mind of make yourself available for adoption and everything will work out great. It's the right thing to do, so it'll work out great, which a big part of me still feels like from a society level, it is totally the right, loving, kind thing to do, and I fully, wholeheartedly believe in it, but I so believe now, and it was not on my radar then or yours, that the preparation process needs to be almost more robust than the adoption process. And in our experience, it was completely flipped on its head. There was no preparation process. It was all adoption process. [00:06:29] Speaker C: And even then, though we knew that we wanted to do a domestic adoption, we knew that we wanted to do infant adoption, that we just nicely kind of thought that, oh, because our, our child wouldn't be going through the foster care system or be having lived in an orphanage for many years, that it's kind of like a clean slate. Like, you're not going to have all the struggles that would come. And that was just, we were just naive. [00:06:59] Speaker D: And we didn't know you will have any parenting. We didn't have any parenting experience at all. [00:07:04] Speaker C: And both of us grew up in kind of the evangelical conservative church, and then we were parented very traditionally. And so that is the only parenting context that you have, and that's where you start. That's what you work from. [00:07:19] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think so many people can relate to that. I think that's so common. I think that a lot of people have that mindset. Well, they didn't have memories of going through all these different homes or, well, they didn't have necessarily physical abuse. And so you're highlighting something that I think a lot of people don't know, which is just that there's so much inherent trauma that can happen even with infinite. There's so much that can happen even prenatally that we're learning now through research. So, no, I think, thank you guys for sharing vulnerably because I think a lot of people can probably relate. We don't know what we don't know. And I love said Shane about just like, hey, we need to educate people just as much as we put them through this adoption process. Let's put them through a preparation process because it's so needed for them to have that picture. [00:08:10] Speaker D: I almost believe that it should be required that there is some. It was essentially, no, it was essentially like, if you want to read a book, you can read a book kind of thing. But I almost feel so strongly about it right now that I feel like the services provided at MFCC should almost be like, it's just that important. [00:08:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:34] Speaker C: And I remember saying to Shane, literally, these exact words know as we kind of started, as the behaviors got more and more challenging, as our oldest became, he was a toddler and then going into preschool and everyone's telling us, oh, well, you just need to firm up. You need to be more disciplined. You need to have more spanking, more time out, just be consistent. All that. And we were like, okay, let's give this a try. We'll try to spank our. Then, you know, a little bit of time passed and I said to Shane, I have no idea what we're going to do, but we can't do this. [00:09:14] Speaker D: It's not working. [00:09:15] Speaker C: And it was like we had no idea what to do. But whatever it was, it wasn't going to be that. It was just like having the complete opposite effect of what it was supposed to do. And this isn't going to work, right? [00:09:29] Speaker D: And you have these instincts, but you. [00:09:31] Speaker C: Don'T know what to do. [00:09:32] Speaker D: And your instincts are telling you this isn't right, doesn't feel right, it's not going well. Something is missing. And not only were we doing traditional stuff like that, but not soothing, like, hey, you got to get it right, got to do this right. And then in a way that we would never interact with our three year old now, right? Because we have twelve years of experience of like, oh, that's not right. [00:10:00] Speaker C: And guess what? And this is where the nurture just takes over. Because it was like we went from this very traditional parenting style that we both grew up with and all of our just kind of what mostly is happening in society and that people are saying you got to do. And then it was like we had to completely switch gears and thank God that we did because I swear it put our whole family on a different path that otherwise I don't even know what would have happened if we hadn't. Yeah. [00:10:34] Speaker D: And sometimes I'll put things through like a super black and white lens and I will think, okay, what we're doing right now is not working at all. This traditional parenting that we're trying, it's just not working. And our house is not at peace at all. And then when we get connected with you guys, and in the back of my mind I'm saying, man, this nurturing connection before, correction, all this kind of stuff, it sounds so soft. [00:11:01] Speaker B: It does. [00:11:02] Speaker D: But at the same time, I'm saying what we're doing right now is not working at all. And even if this MFCC stuff doesn't work, at least it's kind and at least it's fostering connection. And if your kids are going to be bozos one way or the other, you want to have a loving connection with. So like, even if it doesn't work, it's still the right thing. It just feels right. [00:11:22] Speaker B: I really appreciate perspective of getting on board, not knowing if it's going to work. Because then I think what happens when you get into this kind of new mindset that we talk about, the empowered to connect, like balancing nurture and structure, connecting before correcting. When you get into that, so much of it is about changing your mindset about what does it works. And so I think you guys are hitting on so much that society just teaches us, suck up the emotions, behave the right way, like, period, end of story. That's it. And you guys are saying, that's not it. That's not working. [00:11:58] Speaker C: Is the goal to change the behavior? What is your ultimate goal? Or is the goal to maintain that connection? Because ideally, if you can maintain the connection and with the nurture and with the structure, help change the behavior, that's great. But the goal can't be the behavior. The goal is the connection. [00:12:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:20] Speaker C: And it's like a hard shift. Even now. Even now, we still struggle every day. [00:12:26] Speaker D: Even if, worst case scenario, what if the behavior doesn't change? At least your kid knows you're in their corner, and that way you're in it with them. Whereas on the other end, it's like, figure it out, pal. You got to get. [00:12:38] Speaker B: What were some of those early practices you said, mindy, we didn't know what we were going to do next, but not this. [00:12:48] Speaker C: Yeah. So one of the first things, and like I said, we were switching to nurturing. And I've always been really kind of naturally good at instrumental care, which is like, I'm making sure my kid is well fed. I'm making sure they had a good nap. I'm making sure they got a full night's rest, and they're not overstimulated and all that stuff. But what's harder for me is nurture, physical touch and words of affirmation, and Shane is better at. So we're kind of stepping into all this, and it's like you have your tool bell and they're saying, okay, now, first order business. You're starting to have a meltdown or whatever's happening. Playful engagement, all right? You try to do playful engagement, next thing you know, oh, got to give a choice. You got to give a choice. And so I remember when I was first learning, like, using choices and stuff, and I'd be in the moment all worked up, like, you know what? You know what? You can either eat your food or I can make you eat your food. I'm like, I know I need to use a choice here. I can't, in this moment, come up with whatever the choice is going to be. And then slowly, as time went on now, it's just so natural. We're just doing all these things so naturally. Not that it's still not a struggle, but that at the beginning, it was just funny. Absolutely. [00:14:15] Speaker B: And it's that awkward process of just trying new things and seeing what works. Even, like, I love that you said playful engagement, but even with that, I think through your story, I think I counted four. I think you have four kids. And so as you're parenting those four kids, it's not like there's one way to play. It's not like there's one way to do playful engagement. So even when you learn that in a class, then you have to go home to your real family and work it out. What's their style? How do they play? How are they going with it? So those are some of yours. Shane, what were some of the things that you remember from those early, early. [00:14:58] Speaker D: Days, some of the things that I did poorly? [00:15:03] Speaker C: You can talk about that if you want. [00:15:04] Speaker B: But when you first started trying these principles, these new ways of doing things, what do you remember from that time? [00:15:11] Speaker D: Yeah, I think above all else, it's the mindset shift of what are our goals and what is it that your big picture role of a parent. Your big picture role of a parent, maybe when I'm 24, I'm thinking to raise a kid that follows directions and does what they're supposed to do, kind of super simple, and then kind of just a total flip of like, what are we really doing here with this kid? Nothing you're doing is working. And then to kind of, even though I was skeptical, starting with you guys, it was kind of just like, at a certain point, it clicks and you say, all right, this is it. I don't know exactly how to do it, or I don't know if it's even going to work. But I do know that this feels right and what we were doing doesn't feel right because I can list off six or seven things of what I used to do. That was more like just like power through mentality, which is probably a little bit of a metaphor of problem solving in general for me. And it's like it just didn't work. It just doesn't work in this context. So it was such a paradigm shift to work with you guys and kind of get this different approach that was all new to us and very different than anything we'd seen before. [00:16:36] Speaker B: You guys obviously have kids all the way on. They're not all toddlers anymore and they're not all preschool anymore. But if you think about that age and kind of how kids are at that age, I wonder if you can say nurturing is kind of our topic of the month. We're really thinking about it. We're really digging into it. What kind of nurture do you think kids need at this age? And how is nurture especially helpful at this age? Maybe if anything comes to mind on. [00:17:06] Speaker A: That. [00:17:09] Speaker B: What kind of nurture do they need? Because I think toddlers, I guess I'll answer my question first. Just like toddlers are in such a unique place where so many of their needs are emotional and like we were talking about earlier, we're taught to suck it up. Don't worry about the emotions. And so I wonder what else. What else about toddlers or preschoolers comes to mind that's especially helpful when you're thinking about nurture. [00:17:33] Speaker D: This is something that you're probably going to be like. That's a weird thing. Don't say that. But I swear, part of me, of some of the documentaries that we watch that are national geographic type stuff, and you see just these little toddler type age animals. And for parents to just be on the ground with them, letting them crawl on you, grab at you, kind of just say, I'm yours, we are together, and whatever you need, I'm here for you. That's what I think of with our current three year old. It's kind of like, anything you want from me, man, we are here. I'm on the ground with you, you're crawling on me, touching all that kind of just super basic stuff is what I feel is such a fun part about that age. Just like they're grabbing your face and they're on your back and they feel so comfortable that they can do anything with you. I love that sweet, nurturing part of. [00:18:39] Speaker C: This age and also that their emotions are so big. They have these little bodies, but they have such big emotions and that I can tolerate the emotion so much better now and just let it ride, it's going to fizzle out. But just giving them that space and that time and to support the child during that. And I think that was the hardest thing for me to learn with our oldest because I was so triggered by the big emotions, and I still am very triggered by big emotions, but it was really hard for me to help the child regulate when they were having this big, explosive reaction and that I had to somehow find a way to stay in that with them when everything in me was just like, get me out of here. And I'm just ready to. My head's about to explode. And so that was the hardest thing to learn. And it's still hard to do because we still have to help our oldest regulate and stay with them. Doesn't stop at toddler doors and the yelling and the throwing and the screaming. If you go away, it will never stop. So you got to stay. But you'd have to set that boundary and figure it out. And now with the toddler, with our youngest, I'm just like, it's all right, buddy. [00:20:14] Speaker D: But also, that's a uniquely difficult situation. When we think about going back in time, not only are we, we don't have parenting experience, we don't have life experience, and we're dealing with. In a perfect world, maybe you raise three more typical biological kids, and then maybe you have more difficulty or a struggle with your youngest and you're more prepared because you've been through it. You're like ten years older and you have all that. But we're 24. We have a kid who, when he's struggling, when he is hurt, when he's emotionally out of control, you are saying, hey, man, I got you. [00:20:49] Speaker A: Come here. [00:20:49] Speaker D: And he's hitting you and you're kind of like, oh, I don't have the tool set for this at all. Whereas with our youngest, now, if he's hurt, he's running to you for a hug, and it's much more like. [00:21:03] Speaker C: It's more natural. [00:21:04] Speaker D: You don't need a deep toolkit to handle that. It's like, yeah, man, I'm sorry you got hurt, baby. I'm going to give you a kiss and hug you and we're good. But when you are dealing with the other scenario where you try to nurture in that moment of hurt and they're swinging at you and you're kind of just like, I got nothing for this. It's tough. Oh, JD, I think you're muted. [00:21:29] Speaker C: Oh, JD, he's been muted the whole time. Hold on. Pause. [00:21:40] Speaker D: Well, Becca has the mute. [00:21:44] Speaker A: Is that better? Can you hear me now? [00:21:46] Speaker D: Oh, we got you. Yeah. [00:21:47] Speaker C: We haven't heard anything you've said before. [00:21:52] Speaker A: Not been. I've not been trying to. I've just been letting y'all talk. What I was going to say is I resonate with what you all are saying because I think in our situation, too, what drove us to etc. In the beginning was just being like, we don't have any answers for what we are seeing right now. Right. And we've got four also. And our youngest has just a completely different set of challenges than the other three. But one of those is not what we have with the oldest or with the second or with the third. So each of them all have their own unique challenges. And I think I find what has happened now is I've been able to chill out a little bit because I've been parenting for a while, but then all this knowledge of attachment and all this knowledge of how connection feeds that plays into when there is a big conflict, how I approach it, right. My insecurity when we were first parenting was, like, out of control. Wanting to be the dad and be in control and come in and drop the hammer and solve the situation and all of that one just time and so many children has just broken me of that. But then the other piece was like, learning all we learned about trauma and the brain about attachment has since helped me realize that was actually the exact opposite approach of what was going to actually work for us in the moment. And so with the youngest one now, there is such a different approach that we take toward all those situations. And I have the patience and the self assuredness to. You were talking, Mindy, about just staying in, staying with it, and staying in those conflicts. I wonder for you guys, can you put a finger on a moment where you had one of those breakthroughs where you realized kind of what it was that was changing in you, or you started to see, like, oh, this worked well here. And now I've got an idea of how I should approach these things. [00:24:00] Speaker C: There's so many. I think, for me, maybe when we first jumped into the empowered to connect stuff in 2016, like I said, we were in the parenting class. We were doing counseling. We were. Connor was our parent mentor, coming to our house at night after the kids were in bed. And that was sort of, for me, a breakthrough of recognizing, why am I so triggered by this child's behavior? What's happening in me? What do I need to do? And why can't I do it? That was kind of like, I think a theme of us for parenting is that both of us worked really hard at everything. And I kind of just assumed, yeah, I would work hard as a parent, and I would be really good at it, and my kids would be great, and everything would be rainbows and butterflies. [00:25:00] Speaker D: And it was like, I want to just emphasize that. And I know it kind of sounds like a duplicate thing to say, but we have had very charmed lives and have a lot of gratitude for our lives. And sure, we have excelled at everything. And then you get to this point, you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm bad at this, right? [00:25:22] Speaker C: It's not going, but it's every waking moment of your life. And so it's like, I have never worked harder at anything than I have at. And to feel that you are working so hard and you're doing everything in your power and it's just consuming every waking moment, and yet still it is so humbling that you're not where you thought you were going to be. All of your expectations have to be just totally revamped and set aside. But I think probably at the very beginning, having those very personal conversations about what's happening in you when this is going on with your child. You want to nurture them, you want to help them, but there's a wall and you can't break through it. Just having more of that self awareness. And so for me, like I said before, being able to help my son regulate and staying with him was so hard. And once I had more awareness of why is it so hard for me and some coping for being in that moment and staying with him instead of the you're on, time out, get away from me approach. So, yeah, having more self awareness of what is triggering me and coping skills for being in the moment, it's so. [00:26:47] Speaker B: Huge because you can't offer regulation if you're not regulated right. And it makes sense. The time out thing I know is not the way forward, but it makes sense whenever you're so stressed out, you just need a minute to regulate. So what you're saying flipping old school. [00:27:06] Speaker C: Parenting is like you put the kid on time out, now I'm like, I need a timeout. I can't help you if I don't get a timeout. [00:27:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I need a minute to regulate so I can give that to you. I think that you're articulating so well, Shane, for you, when you think back, yeah. [00:27:26] Speaker D: And maybe these aren't like the most hopeful answers, but I would say one feeling like, why am I so bad at this? And to be introduced to a community that's like, hey, you're not the only one dealing with this stuff. And here's like a whole bunch of other people with kind of similar stories. And these people are like 5678 years ahead of you and they're able to offer you hope in this way. And nothing's new. This has all been done before. We are ten years ahead of you and we can kind of help you through that. So that was really helpful. And then the other thing kind of being like, it's not even really a breakthrough, but more of like a mindset thing of like, hey, maybe you're not going to get behavioral changes, maybe you're not going to get maybe it's really just like, what's going on in me that's going to change. The kids don't change, and they just are what they are. But what are you going to do in response to that, and what is your overall approach going to be? That probably extends outside of parenting as far as just, like, how your demeanor and what you bring to your interactions. But that was the biggest thing for me with this whole journey is kind of like, what are you doing, dude? It's very easy to say, this kid's killing me. This kid's killing me. They're not doing right. Why can't they get it together? And it's kind of like, all right, well, that's kind of a little bit outside of one thing I've learned. You're not going to fix all that, so what are you bringing to it? So that was a big breakthrough for me personally to kind of better understand where I'm coming from. And I've always been so grateful to min because I would say even though I went to the classes and did the counseling, she has always been more diligent with maybe the more academic side of things and kind of reading the books and then saying, hey, I need you to read this part of this, or I need you to read that part of that. And kind of hearing some of these PhD level folks kind of explain things. And that was always really helpful to me, even though maybe in the moment it's not the best thing, but kind of just like, piecing together that whole, like, hey, this is the big picture. We've researched a lot on this, and this is kind of what the most recent literature supports, kind of get with it. And that was always helpful to me, too. And those were books from you guys. Those were generally books that were recommended through the coursework, I would say. [00:30:02] Speaker C: And thinking of a moment with my oldest when we started to switch parenting ways and we started focusing more on the nurture and all that. Probably a year in, I probably wrote this down in a journal somewhere, and I wish I could remember the exact context of how it happened, but he was little. He was probably four. Yeah, little four or five. And something was going on, and I was standing in the kitchen, and it was like, I don't know what he did or what it was, but it was a nurture moment where I just met the need that I saw kind of intuitively. And he came over to me and just kind of leaned against me and said, mom, how did you know me? And it was like this moment where it was like, he was so little. And the way that he said it, it was just like he felt known and he felt seen by this simple thing that I did because it was like, I wish I could remember exactly what it was because it was so not a big deal. But he just leaned up against me and said, mom, how did you know me? And like, man, this kid is feeling care of. He's feeling seen, and he's so little to say something that moment to me. All right, we're on the right track. [00:31:26] Speaker D: Wait. That kind of spurred me to want to say something else. So you have often said, I don't know where you got it from or from what book you say that kids do. Well, if they can. [00:31:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:40] Speaker D: And I've heard you guys say on the podcast as well. And I remember not that long ago, like, less than six months ago, I was in a rut, and I was like, yo, you're killing me. Like, you're bringing me down. Like, the vibe in the house, the daily battles, you're bringing me down. And it's a huge bummer. And I was feeling a little bit probably on the side of sorry for myself. Why is it like this? Why is this hard? Why is this dragging on like it is? And one of our kids was doing their thing that makes me that was just super frustrated about, and I was kind of removed. I'm in the kitchen, and one of the kids is just being a bozo and totally being inappropriate. And you came up and hugged him and just supported him, and he kind of melted into you a little bit. [00:32:30] Speaker C: I forced him to hug me. [00:32:34] Speaker D: It was just like one of those things where kind of like, yeah, it's not easy, but it is simple. It's that you just got to love them through it. And it's like, even I was so didn't want to do that in that moment to see you kind of just be like, I just going to love you anyway. And that's how we're going to get through this. It was like, gosh, that's so heavy, and it's so simple. But that was another one of the things where I was like, that's how you get through all this. [00:33:05] Speaker A: You were talking earlier about just what a big shift it is and how hard this way of parenting is in the beginning. And then there's moments like that where you realize probably the biggest difficulty is the dying to yourself and the self control that it takes to remind yourself in the moment. A lot of these things are not super complex. They're just really difficult to do because everything in you wants to just be like, you all are killing me, get out of my face. I'm going to smack the next person who comes near me, whatever. And to be clear, that's none of us in this podcast. There's no smacking in houses going on. But the feeling of that overwhelmedness to go from that to then being able to stay in it and stay close to a kid or to have the humility to say, I need a minute and have your parenting partner, can I tag in? Those are the moments that you really make your hay, so to speak, as a parent in this way because you're doing everything you can to not break that connection. And I don't know if there's maybe every stage has their unique challenges in this way. Toddlers have a way of just bringing up the instant rage in you of the surprise. What are you doing? The other day, one of our kids just decided that she was going to paint american girl doll's hair with nail polish. And it's just like going nuts. Red nail polish on the carpet, on bedding, on whatever else, just going that's painting it. And it's like, what? It's my doll in my nail polish. And I was just like, oh my gosh, my carpet. [00:34:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:55] Speaker A: And in the moment you're like, we can't replace this carpet. So I guess we just have nail polish carpet now. So this is what this is in our house at this moment. But in that moment, then realizing if I ever want this, if I want to be able to address this, I have to stay in it and level set myself to go, grand scheme of things. Rather have connection and red carpet than get the carpet or keep the carpet clean and have my daughter terrified of me, right? Because that's the alternative. And it takes, again, fourth kid, she gets the best of me in a lot of ways, but it's those little things over time that add up to keep that connection. And so I completely resonate with that story because that's happened in our house a million times, too. I wonder for you guys, when you think about parents who are either just starting out this way or maybe there's parents who are sharing and they're in your spot from the other day. They're like, listen this podcast. Like, yeah, I hear this. And also you don't know our situation, but I'm really about to pop. I don't know what to do right now. From a practical standpoint, would you mind just kind of speaking to some of those first early moments that little things you could do to begin kind of building connection in ways that maybe don't feel, like too big of a reach, if that makes sense. [00:36:23] Speaker C: I would say play has got to be the top, especially for that toddler preschool age. [00:36:31] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:36:32] Speaker C: There was a time with my oldest where I did called PCIT. It's play therapy where they teach the parent how to let the child lead the play. And I don't know, it was so long ago, but I think play has got to be the most important. And for that age, you're just bonding and you're kind of letting them direct it. [00:37:02] Speaker D: Time consuming. Yeah, it could be logistically because it's like in our situation, two babies and then med school. [00:37:14] Speaker C: Med school and we had the two babies. I was not trying to playfully engage. [00:37:19] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:37:22] Speaker C: And also, it can just be a part of how you do your everyday things that you have to do. It's how you are when you're making dinner. It's how you are when you're giving them a bath. It's how you are when you're getting dressed, changing their diapers. We're having some potty training pulled up, and it's just like how you get through the everyday and your interaction with them can be playful. [00:37:48] Speaker D: Yeah. I think when you're young and you're running and you're just like trying to. That stuff can feel not important. And now kind of like, as you're older and, you know, you're raising your last one, you're kind of like, I'm going to gladly make this bedtime take 25 minutes. I'm going to gladly play with you. Just getting you in the car seat two or three. [00:38:12] Speaker C: Like yesterday, Jack and I are running through the parking lot of the gym and he's initiating it. We're jumping over all of know and it's like, I look like a crazy lady wherever I go. And I think also thinking about what I have been trying to work on is knowing what parts of nurture come naturally to me and which ones don't and trying to just be more like. I have to put forth greater effort to get physical affection because my natural thing is just, I had this one big blow up with my daughter. We were actually in Disney world and I'm like, doing all this stuff. She was going through a really hard time, and we went to Disney World during that very difficult time and doing all this stuff for her. And I'm, like, literally very consumed by her struggles at this point. And she had brought her homework with her. And I said, let me sit down and help you get some of this knocked out so you don't get super overwhelmed when we go back on two days and you go to school and she's just, like, so upset with me and just saying how I don't love her and, like, value her the way I do this other kid and blah, blah, blah. And I said to Shane, I'm like, man, I am saying to her, I am doing this right now with you to show you love. Like, this is me showing you nurture and care and love, and you're not feeling it at all. And I called Shane that night, and I was like, we just had a major blow up. And I said, but I'm showing her love, and we're doing all these things, but she's not feeling it. We have to change the way we're showing her love. We have to focus on these other things so that she feels that nurture and that care and that love from us because it's not resonating with her. [00:40:10] Speaker A: It's really good. [00:40:12] Speaker C: So, yeah, just knowing which parts come naturally to you and which ones you have to work harder at. [00:40:22] Speaker D: The hug the cactus kind of analogy, thinking about the younger kids, one of the things that we got with you guys was for some of these sensory seeking kids was to kind of, like, be not your regular physical with them, but even just, like, over and above going out of your way to be pushing, squeezing arms, squeezing feet and hands. And I'm doing this when the kid's little. [00:40:49] Speaker C: And I'm like, man, I feel shade is still doing this all day long. [00:40:52] Speaker D: I'm like, I feel like such an idiot. What am I doing here? And he's so young. He's not really articulating whether he appreciates it or not. And now we're ten years later, we're, like, on the cusp of junior high, and I'm squeezing arms at his request all the time because it was like, that sensory input. He knows that, hey, I need this. I get this from you. And in some ways, I feel like we're lacking connection in a lot of ways. And that silly thing is, like, one thing that brings us together. It's like meeting a need in the same way that you're describing that she had different ways that she needed me. He's still needing that. [00:41:30] Speaker B: Ten years later, both of you are talking. I think that you're saying it so fast. I hope people are hearing it. You're so humble to be willing to do something different or do something you didn't think you would have to do, or you're so willing to look at your kid and go, what does my daughter need? What does my son need? And just meet that need? Whether or not, like you're saying, Shane, you're like, I feel like an idiot or like people are thinking I'm a crazy lady. But I think that the humility to be able to set that aside and just be present to your kids, I feel like as I've just been listening to you guys share your story, man, it just takes a lot to be able to do that. And you're just doing it throughout all these different stories and seasons in different ways. [00:42:18] Speaker D: And you always get blessed with opinions from people that are like, I wouldn't do it that way. I appreciate it. Thanks for that. [00:42:29] Speaker A: Wasn't asking. Oh, my gosh, guys, seriously, thank you so much for jumping on with us today and for just, like, sharing so freely from your stories and being so transparent. It's huge. Any last thoughts before we jump off? [00:42:53] Speaker C: Moms do well if they can. [00:42:54] Speaker D: Moms do well. [00:42:56] Speaker A: That's so good. Again. So Shane and Mindy, a huge shout out to them. Thank you to them for being so transparent and wonderful and just enjoyable to talk to. And we hope that you got as much from them as we did. We really enjoyed getting to be with them today. And so a big shout out to them. Thank you to them. Another episode in the books on nurture. We got more coming up. And so we are working our way through the different ages and stages of parenting and talking to folks who are kind of either in that season or have just come out of that season, and they are sharing with us what it's like to nurture in that season of life. And so, really excited for our next episode. Can't wait to share it with you. I'm not going to spoil who the guest is yet. You'll have to listen to find out. But for everybody here at empowered to connect, for Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, for Tad Jewett, the creator of the music behind the Empowered to Connect podcast, I'm JD Wilson, and we will see you next week on the empowered to connect podcast.