[E179] Nurture: Infant Massage & Early Intervention with OT Jodi Haugen

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Empowered to Connect podcast, where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families, and our communities. I'm JD Wilson, and I am your host. And today on the show, we've got Jodie Haugen, who is a TBRI practitioner and occupational therapist of many years, working in the early intervention phase of OT. So she works with infants and parents of infants to do early intervention for everything. And you'll hear her talk about the scope of work that she does. Fascinating conversation with her. She explains everything from kind of early formation of the sensory systems to one of the most mind blowing facts I've ever heard about how many different brain connections are happening with each second of life going by in a child's first year. You do not want to miss that. It is fascinating. She also talks about some very practical tips and tools for you to build connection attachment with your infant. So whether you are a parent of an infant or, you know, a parent of an infant, a really, really helpful interview today with Jody. Becca McKay joins us as well. Just a really great conversation. So without any further ado, here she is, Jody and Becca and myself talking about early intervention, occupational therapy and nurturing our babies. Well, as we mentioned in the introduction, we've got Jodi Haugen with us today, and she is an OT. We also have Becca McKay with us. And so we want to talk today we're starting a series talking about nurture specifically. So as you've been listening along live, as we're airing these earlier in the year, we did a series beginning to talk a lot about structure and discipline and all of that. If you missed those, you can definitely go back and listen to them. But we want to talk about nurture. Know with, with everything that we do, we want to talk about creating a balance, finding the right balance between structure and nurture. And so to do that, we have Jody here with us. So let's do this. Jody, before we ask you to share your story, Becca, will you just kind of introduce the idea, frame this idea for us before we jump in today? [00:02:19] Speaker B: Absolutely. As we jump into this series, nurture, we're going to look at through the lifespan. So we're going to kind of highlight a component of what it might look like to nurture infants today. And then next week we'll just move up the ladder. We'll do toddlers, we'll do all the way up to young adults. And so if you're interested in a specific age group, stay tuned and stick with us. Obviously, the topic nurturing infants. You could almost talk about that for 50 hours. There's so many aspects of it. And so you think about nurturing a baby. You think about those newborn parents up through the night, feeding them every couple of hours. You think about the social skills, playing peek a boo as they take their first steps, all those things. But Jodie, we specifically wanted to invite, because of her expertise with the sensory processing systems that babies are born with, with their early experiences. And then even we're excited today to talk about something that JD and I don't know a lot about, infant massage. So that idea of how healthy touch really nurture. And so, Jodi, we're just. That you're going to bring your expertise and that wisdom that you have from your practice here for us to learn from today. [00:03:36] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. I'm actually really excited to be here. And I assume you want to know a little bit about where I come from. Like you said, I've been an occupational therapist for 27 years now, and 16 of those have been in early intervention. So for those who don't know, early intervention is working with the birth to three population. And it's completely different than what you might think of as traditional occupational therapy or other therapy services, because we're typically going into people's homes, and when we're working with babies, we're really working with parents. We do a lot of parent coaching. And then I completed my TBRI certification. Gosh, I don't know if that was maybe five years ago, and my infant massage certification was, I think, in 2012. So I've been doing that for quite a long time. I have graduate training in sensory integration. That's a really big part of what I do in early intervention is working with babies and toddlers who have sensory challenges. So I hope I can share some tidbits that are interesting today. [00:04:52] Speaker A: Okay, well, number one, all of that background makes me so excited, because there's no pressure on Becca and I to actually share anything today, because you've got it covered. Let's start here, if we can. I will say just from personal experience. So one of our kids early on, we noticed probably around one and a half, two years old, that there were just some things that we just didn't have answers for. We weren't sure. Is this kiddo behind developmentally, we just didn't know what we were looking for, but because we had had other kids before, we kind of knew. All right, maybe some things are not developing as quickly as we thought here or there. There were just some things that we just didn't have answers for. And so we were really fortunate to be in Memphis and to be able to seek out the help of an occupational therapist, and it completely changed our lives. So if you would, will you just kind of start with why do you have a job working with infants? What might the need even be? So can you talk about kind of birth and what is happening at birth that might cause a need for an OT to step in? [00:05:58] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. There's a lot happening. And first, let me talk about one part of your question, the services question and why I have a job and why these services are here. And we can thank our government, actually, because this is part of a federally funded grant program to states early intervention. So this service is available in every state. It looks a little bit different. I'm in Michigan, and our services are offered through the school system, and they are entirely free to families. So we accept referrals from parents, from case workers, from hospitals. Babies who are exposed prenatally are automatic referrals to our program. So as far as getting support, parents should know that early intervention services are available in their state, and they can do a Google search for early intervention, and it should come up with whatever their program is. In Michigan, it's called early on, but in other states, I think, like in Indiana, it's called first step. So just. So that's why I have a job. Thank you. [00:07:09] Speaker B: Government. [00:07:12] Speaker C: Yeah. And then all of the things that I work with as an OT, maybe that's how I can kind of address some of the things that come up in early intervention and how we address those. So as an OT, I receive a lot of referral for babies who come home who have prenatal exposure, who might come home with other medical challenges, feeding challenges. And when you think of all of those medical challenges that happen, those are all forms of trauma or disruption in how it should normally go when a baby comes home. Those can all contribute to some of the later developmental delays. And then we also have a whole staff of, we have pts, physical therapists, social workers, speech therapists, and special education teachers who address the needs of the children all the way until they're three. So, yeah, it's a great program that parents, if they have any concerns, I always say I trust parents so much. And I would say, if you think it, I think it because you know your kids better than anybody. A big philosophy of our program is that parents are the best teachers and therapists. So if you think there might be something wrong then or that's not quite right to reach out for help, and this is a good program. [00:08:44] Speaker B: Could you maybe share some of the benefits of. I think a lot of parents have kind of a wait and see mentality when it comes to. I think something might be going on. Let's just wait and see. Let's just wait and see. And I've heard through my social work experience, I've heard from, like yourself, that really early can help so much. I wonder if there's any benefits you could share of getting help early in order to just support some of that development and growth. [00:09:13] Speaker C: Yeah, early intervention. I mean, when you think about just the brain building capacity that's happening in those early years, in particular the first year of life, but all the way up until five, that the brain is developing at such an incredible rate. I think the Harvard center for Developing Child, they have so many great resources, but one of their big messages is what they call serve and return interactions, so that being attuned and responding to your child, and they have reported that in the first year of life, for every second of those rich interactions, there are a million brain connections happening. So in that first year of life. I know, isn't it per second? Per second. This is a million brain connections happening each second you are having that rich interaction with your baby. And so that first year of life, we're getting all these connections happening, and then there's this kind of pruning back that happens. So if we wait, we miss that kind of golden window, and there's just so much research that supports wait and see is not the answer. We would rather have a child come to us and say that everything's okay than wait and see. And there are many doctors who take a wait and see approach. So I always say, trust your gut. [00:10:44] Speaker A: And a million per second. [00:10:46] Speaker C: Isn't that crazy? I know. I heard that. We are actually going through some social emotional training right now with what's called the pyramid model, and that was shared in there. That was like their latest updated statistic at a million connections per second. I share it with parents now. I'm like, oh, my gosh, you just interacted with your child. Did you know you just made a million connections? [00:11:09] Speaker A: It really is incredible. And you think about. So a very large portion of our listenership are either adoptive or foster families. And so with having early disruption in some form or fashion in a child's story, it can interrupt those connections from being made. And so will you kind of talk about what that disruption can mean from an OT standpoint and how you might address that. [00:11:38] Speaker C: Yeah. So these kids who have a disruption in that attachment cycle, and they are parents who aren't tuning into that. We do a lot of parent training, for sure, to try and help parents understand the benefit and coaching parents of what those interactions look like. And we might be getting into that infant massage part now that we were kind of talking about earlier as one of the tools that we use in early intervention or I use as an OT, working with families that I find can be really beneficial to not just provide this sensory, super powerful sensory input, but also this back and forth interaction that builds brain capacity. So that's one tool we definitely incorporate with every family. [00:12:37] Speaker A: Okay, so let's get into massage then. Let's talk about why, first of all, what the need is for it. And then would you mind getting into the kind of biological weeds with us and helping us understand the different things that are happening in the sensory systems in infant massage? [00:12:57] Speaker C: Sure. I certainly can do my questions if I'm missing anything. And people probably understand what massage is, because most people have had a massage. And when we're talking infant massage, it's applying that to an infant. So it's a form of structured touch. It uses specific methods and techniques and different strokes that can have different effects. But parents should know, aside from a couple of caveats, there isn't a wrong way to touch your baby, short of we want the pressure to be firm but gentle, so not too hard, not too soft. I would say it's kind of like a tube of toothpaste. You don't want to squeeze it too hard because it'll shoot everywhere. Right. You want it to be just right. Or massaging a newborn baby who maybe still has their umbilical cord attached to their belly, you don't want to massage their belly. So things like that. But parents should know touching their baby in a way that their baby enjoys is the goal. It's not about I have to do this stroke exactly right. It's about building that connection and providing this really powerful sensory input. And, I mean, if we think about it, the touch system, our skin, that's the largest sensory organ in our body, and for an infant, it starts developing in utero. So around eight weeks. And by the time a baby's born, they really can appreciate and experience. [00:14:39] Speaker A: A. [00:14:39] Speaker C: Full range of sensations. So pain and hot and cold. So this system is ready to receive input, and this is the way the baby learns about their environment is really through the touch system. It's such an important system early on to support development. And then one of the approaches, when you talk about kind of this multisensory approach, my idea of massage has evolved over the years, and I kind of use protocol that is more multisensory. And I got this from pathways. I don't know if you've heard of that website, but they have a great massage protocol. It's called the 30 ten five, and it incorporates 30 seconds of talking to baby, ten minutes of massage, five minutes of rocking, which provides that movement input. So if we break that down and what we're doing, so that 30 minutes of talking, we're making eye contact, we're using our soft voice, that mother ease voice. We're connecting with baby. We're asking permission. Are you ready for your massage? Making sure that baby's on board, too. And then we do our ten minutes of massage, where we're stimulating this amazing touch system and still talking to baby, if baby can tolerate it. And then we end with some movement input. And that movement input provides stimulation to what we call the vestibular system. And that's the system. I know you're shaking. That's the system in the inner ear that registers movement. So anytime our head moves, a system is stimulated. And this is another. It's one of our hidden senses, and it's a primary sense. It's necessary for balance and movement later on. [00:16:41] Speaker A: When you talk about that portion of it, are you talking about holding them up, rocking around, or kind of sitting them up and moving them around on a surface? What do you mean? [00:16:51] Speaker C: Like, holding them and rocking them in a way baby likes? Usually back and forth, side to side, or it could be front to back, depending on what baby likes and still talking. I mean, yeah. You're not just rocking them out there in space. [00:17:05] Speaker A: Okay. [00:17:07] Speaker B: When you infant massage, Jody and parents are listening, and some of them may have heard of it, may be familiar with it, and some wouldn't be. Is this something that you feel like every baby needs or would benefit from, or is there, like a targeted audience or like a why that you would use it? It's just one of those things. I have heard of it, so I don't know a lot about it. So people are listening, and they have a born baby. Is this something you think every baby can benefit from? Look into it. Is this something that you would say, hey, look for these signs. This is might benefit kind of your take on that. And this is just a genuine, I don't know, teach us. [00:17:48] Speaker C: I love that. I think every baby can benefit from it. I mean, the short answer of that, I share it with every family at least give preliminary information. Some families that I work with are maybe not super interested in sitting down and doing them, but I always make sure I present that information and say, get some touch in at least once a day. The benefits are just. Research is so funny because you can never say causation, but there's research that supports some pretty nice benefits for massage. And I know in our practice guidelines, it's our national organization, the American Occupational Therapy association, they rank this has strong evidence, this has moderate. And infant massage is considered one of those interventions for the birth to five population that has strong evidence supporting its use. So I go by that too. They kind of review that. But, yeah, the benefits. So having this daily beautiful moment with your baby where you're providing this wonderful input and this interaction, it can have benefits for relaxation, sleep, feeding. This is used in the neonatal intensive care unit. Some of them, I don't know the percentage, but they've done research on really tiny babies and found benefits in reduced hospital stay times, improved weight gain. And you think about those little babies who are in the neonatal intensive care unit and all of their touch experiences. I think it's like 95% are negative touch experiences. Yeah, they're getting poked and prodded, and so to come in and say, no, touch is good and it's not something to be afraid of. So for those babies who've had a lot of medical intervention, it can be super beneficial. [00:19:57] Speaker A: That's interesting. So we're hearing from you that this should just be kind of a daily routine for us, like a connection, attachment building routine for us as parents in those early years. What are some of the other things that we can be thinking through to help build those sensory connections? Build those sensory system connections. Are there other things that parents can be doing during those birth to five years that can just become routines that can help build those systems up? [00:20:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I think you've kind of mentioned some of them. I mean, setting regular routines so days are predictable and baby knows what to count on. Regular meals, sleep times, all of those types of things. Reading to baby, we recommend starting to read. And by reading, we don't mean sitting down and reading, but talking about pictures, talking to baby, just that making that eye to eye contact at every diaper change is another form of connection. Taking time out to just be with baby tummy time is a huge message for all of our families because it's so important for sensory and motor development. There's so many containers out there now and so many things that tempt parents to not have babies on their tummies. So we encourage a lot of that and monitoring those developmental milestones. I mean, if parents are noticing something that isn't right to speak up. [00:21:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. So one of the things that I would say changed our life with having early ot in our Family's life was when our OT would sit down and explain with us exactly what was happening in our baby's brain, in her visual sense, her auditory sense, all that. Would you help us to understand kind of in those early intervention modes, are there things that you see that to be the most common reasons that kids are coming in to have early intervention? And if there's kind of a most common thing you're seeing, what is it, and how are you guys treating it? Or are they all so different when they come in? [00:22:29] Speaker C: Yeah, I would say. Are you talking about just like an OT caseload, because we get a range in early intervention? Yeah. As an OT, I work with babies. I mean, we're seeing a lot of kids on the autism spectrum. So you're talking about specifically babies and why they might come into early intervention. [00:23:00] Speaker A: So for kids who are coming in on the autism spectrum, I know there are different treatments for different situations. Obviously, there's a lot of assessment and testing that goes into that. Are there things that you see, like, here's one of our most common interventions, and here's what it's doing in the brain and helping to sort out. [00:23:19] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. It probably depends on the age of the child and what the particular condition is. We really have such a range of interventions. I feel like I've been in continuing education, I don't know, for 20 years and learned, and our staff is super experienced. We have such a toolbox that we pull from. So if we're talking about sensory issues, kids, babies who might have sensory issues or suspected sensory issues, some of those things we talk about are environmental modifications, massage, deep pressure, those types of things. In a child with the autism spectrum, we might be talking about different. It all depends on their sensory needs. But different sensory activities to help regulate sensory is all about the child getting at the optimum level of regulation so they can engage in the environments and with their caregivers. So I'm not sure I'm getting to your question. If I'm answering, I feel like you're trying to get to something. [00:24:38] Speaker A: No. I've always been fascinated by the sensory systems and the idea of sensory integration, and so I would watch some of the different therapies that our kids were going through, and I would just be amazed. Like, this looks like you're just spinning on the floor right now. And then I would hear the explanation of what was actually happening in the brain and then see obviously the results of it later on. And I was mesmerized by that. I'm just fascinated by what ots do. [00:25:07] Speaker C: Yeah, there's such invisible senses, and it's hard to generalize, I think, and be like, this is what we do for every. You're looking at it from this is your particular child, and they have vestibular needs, so we're spinning them and it's stimulating this part of the vestibular system, and this is the response we're getting. And that's the clinical sensory reasoning that happens. And it's so individualized. Right. [00:25:34] Speaker A: So true. Yeah. [00:25:37] Speaker C: I was like, I think he's trying to get something. [00:25:40] Speaker B: We just want to pick your brain. It's fun to talk to someone who just has such a depth of knowledge, expertise. I'm wondering, you were talking earlier about how a huge part of your role is just parent education, parent coaching, and just helping parents. And I'm going to say something. Don't want us to open a worms. So I think technology has changed everything. I think that's fair to say. And some of what it changed and not asking you to say whether we're not going to take a position on screen time for baby or for parent. But what I'm curious about is with that shift, you talk about how much is happening as they grow and develop their muscles, all those senses are just growing so much. I wonder, I think back to are you teaching parents how to play with their baby? And what are some of the lessons that you share? Are you teaching, what are some of those lessons that you're imparting on people that they may or may not know? Because I think on one hand knows that you should smile at your baby and play with baby, but maybe people, how often they should do that or how much they need any kind of that you would want to share with people about just taking care of a young baby? What do they need, parents? What's most helpful, those types of things? What would come to mind with that kind of question? [00:27:08] Speaker C: Yeah. And we're talking about babies here. That's such a good question. And it really is so individualized. And I agree with you on screen time completely. And the American Academy of Pediatrics actually recommends no screen time except for video calls for children under 18 months. That's a really great point. We go into a lot of homes where tvs are on for kids and there are educational shows that, well, I. [00:27:42] Speaker A: Just think about, we've got four kids, so by the time that our fourth came along, she was six years younger, five years younger than everybody else. So everybody else was sort of in that, like they're watching. It wasn't bluey then because I'm old, but it'd be bluey now. Stuff is on tv. And so our youngest was definitely getting screen time before 18 months. And we feel like we tried to keep a pretty good lid on it. But that's really interesting to know that number. [00:28:10] Speaker C: Yeah. I don't know how realistic that is in today's age, especially with older kids. It's going to happen, but it's a good idea. We do share that with families about screen time. It's always interesting to try and coach families because you're coming into their space, right. And you don't want to be this person that comes in and tells everything they're not doing. You turn off that tv. So it's really about building a relationship with that parent and figuring out how they learn best. And we really base our program on their priorities. It's not about what I want to accomplish because it has to matter to them. And if a parent, for instance, and I run into this older kids who are still on the bottle, they're over two and they're on the bottle. And I'm not saying anything bad about that, but because it can be a sense of comfort, it's helping that child sleep, and they are aware of all the problems that it could cause, but they would prefer to have sleep. So it's not up to me to come in and say, get rid of the bottle, because it has to be important to them. We're there to support the family. It's not just about child. So sometimes what we might want to do, it's a little bit different than in a clinic. What we might want to do to, say, support development of that child, tummy time, massage, whatever doesn't happen because the family doesn't have food on the table or they're not sleeping, somebody's sick in the family. So it's beautiful because they're inviting us into their space, but at the same time, we don't always get to do everything we want to do, right? [00:30:09] Speaker A: So I guess one thing that I would love to know as we talk today about this, I think about how many parents you're interacting with and how many you have interacted with over the years. And maybe it's just the list that you just rattled off just now. Are there a couple of things that you see that are the. I've got to share this advice. Every single time that we have parents come in, not in a shaming way, but just are there some greatest hits of things that you find you're having to help walk parents through in this idea of making sure that you're providing, like, a sensory rich environment for your baby early on in life? [00:30:48] Speaker C: Yeah, infant massage is definitely one of those. And I'll just start with the babies I work with. Infant massage, tummy time and helping through developmental milestones. The sensory part is introduced. I think when there are sensory is really interesting because we all have sensory quirks. Babies can show sensory needs, but then you talk to parents and how are your daily routines? And they're like, they're great. So sensory becomes a need when it impacts what you want to do on a day to day basis. So those sensory things are introduced kind of on an as needed basis. And not that we don't talk about getting outside. I mean, that's another one. Is that outdoor time? You talk about screen time, they say nature time, and making sure kids have plenty of movement. I mean, as they get older, I think that does become a struggle. Parents will be frustrated because kids are bouncing off the walls and it's cold outside. I am sharing as an OT that sensory information and the need for kids to move on a regular basis, especially those toddler years, they require a lot of movement, so to stay organized. [00:32:25] Speaker B: It's so funny when you think about. I think toddlers take naps. That's something that I just kind of, I have nieces and nephews and I'm like, they take naps. But when you just said that, you were saying toddlers need a lot of movement, and I don't think I've ever thought about it that way. So that's a good shift because it's like, toddlers need a nap. Mad at needing a nap, but we do get annoyed. You need to move. So how you said that, that was a good point. [00:32:52] Speaker C: Yeah, they definitely do. And you think about it going back to that movement system in our inner ear, there's a lot of maturity and development that's happening in those early years. So movement, that system is not getting the input it needs. So it's not even just about they need the movement because they're busy. Their bodies need the movement for. Yeah, we're definitely sending that message a lot. [00:33:23] Speaker B: There's a principle, and I'm going to feel a little bit dumb asking this question, Jodi, but I have in my mind from, like, an old college psychology class that there's this use it or lose it principle. Is that true? Is that kind of what you're describing? I know that's not the scientific term, but is there this principle of we have to use these systems during those years when those million connections are being made and all the way up until. Is that true? Is that a myth? Again, I feel it, but I want to know, is that a true principle? And is that talking about there? [00:34:00] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's definitely true. And maybe you've heard about some of the experiments with the Reese's monkeys, right? I mean, those are kind of some of the early experiences of that sensory deprivation. So you talk, know, use it or lose. And there was a great series on PBS called the Brain, and it tracked brain development through the lifespan. And one part of it was about these boys who had come from an orphanage and had know they were in cribs and no real human interaction, and they were all adopted by the same family. And the impact, like the child that was the oldest spent the most time, you saw the greatest impact in his life as he. They were adults when they interviewed them. And the child who was adopted when he was under two, he had recovered a little bit more from that deprivation. So I think that's what you're talking about, right? Use it early. [00:35:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:11] Speaker C: And that early nurturing and interaction, sensory exposure is critical to development and to. [00:35:23] Speaker B: Kind of come full circle to where we started when you were talking about NICU babies having maybe like 95% negative touch, but then you were saying there's hopefulness there. We can do infant massage. We can do some things to course correct from where the train might be off the tracks. And so I just heard in all the things you're sharing, little glimmers of we can do things as parents, as caregivers. We can do things to help support that growth, which is encouraging because we can't control some of those other factors, can't control if they have medical challenges or if there's pick you stays or NICU stays or other things that pop up. So it's encouraging to know that there's pieces we can. I think my last question for you is just, it sounds, I hear when you talk about just your deep care for parents, and you said it a couple of times a couple of different ways, you don't want to come in and tell them what to do. You want to make sure you're taking care of them. So I wonder if you just have anything that comes to mind when it comes to what advice do you have for parents to take care of themselves as they're trying to take care of babies and toddlers? Anything that comes to mind on how they can care for themselves during that season of life? [00:36:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm going to take it back to infant massage, please, because there are benefits for not just baby, but for parents. So some of the research has been done with mothers and fathers who are providing infant massage and that it can help with symptoms of depression and stress and anxiety. And obviously when mom is feeling better, then she connects better with baby. And I'm not saying spend more time, but thinking about that idea of as a parent, you're also going to get benefit from massaging baby. They have documented that it increases the release of those feel good hormones like oxytocin for both mom and baby, and that it reduces stress hormones. So that idea, and I know there are other things, ask for help and take time for yourself, but just know, like that infant massage, I know we kind of wanted to talk about that anyways, but there are benefits on both ends. [00:37:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Two way street. That's fascinating. [00:37:57] Speaker C: Yeah. And that whole idea of resilience, if we're talking about TBRI and the idea of resilience and what are we building in to that? You said that there's hope. Absolutely. There's so much that can happen just by having those rich interactions. And infant massage incorporates so many of those TBRI principles. We were kind of talking about that earlier, but I know even before we hit record. [00:38:24] Speaker B: No, I wonder if you could share some of those. That was before we hit the record. We got excited, got into all the ways that the TBRI principles are so aligned. I wonder if you'd share those with people. [00:38:37] Speaker C: Yeah, I know. That's what I was most excited about when we were talking about this. And I've started to look at TBR, I'm like, wow, it fits. Of course, the whole idea of healthy touch, these are all the engagement principles. Right. The eye to eye contact that's happening during infant massage, especially if you're doing that talking to baby beforehand and during voice quality. That's another one. Right. And staying playful. And we encourage talking in that kind of mother ease, that sing songy. Are you ready? That soothing and that playful interaction, you can smile at baby thinking of all those things and we're disarming fear. We're building connection and trust. It's all in there and it happens for both mom or dad and baby. [00:39:28] Speaker A: So. Good, I guess. Before we go, is there anything else within that world of TBRI early intervention that you want to make sure that you cover today or share with parents as they're listening to this, or babies, if the babies are listening to this. [00:39:42] Speaker C: And babies, yeah, they might be listening, too. I just think if parents are interested in takeaway messages, if they're concerned they feel something's wrong, reach out for help if they're interested in learning about infant massage. There are lots of things on YouTube. Just know you can't do it wrong if you and baby are enjoying it and it'll try and fit that. Know once a just if you choose to do that, relax and enjoy that process, think, you know, if there are concerns to not wait. [00:40:30] Speaker A: Awesome, jody, thank you. [00:40:33] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:40:34] Speaker B: It was great for letting us pick and thank you following. I think we just kept getting it about different tangents. So thank you in those tangents with us, it's just great sit with you today and really kind of think about that infant and how we can really be intentional there. So thank you for sharing. [00:40:53] Speaker C: Yeah, it was great to be here. Thank you for having me. [00:40:57] Speaker A: Of course. Well, listen, I will tell you, 1 million connections per second is not the number I would have guessed if we were guessing how many neuropathway connections or how many brain connections are happening per second during a child's first year development. That is mind blowing. And so again, a big thank you to Jody and for her time today and sharing all that she shared and for all the work she's doing in early intervention, like very important work is happening in Michigan. So a big thanks to her. A big thanks always to Becca for joining us and for you for joining us. Just some general announcements and reminders. If you have not rated or reviewed our show on Apple podcasts or on Spotify or on YouTube, please make sure you do that. It helps our podcast to be able to be placed in the different algorithms for people who are looking for podcasts like ours. If you've never shared our podcast with a friend or anybody who is also parenting, please do that as well. And so we would love to be able to get the podcast into the hands of everybody who needs it, wants it, wants to listen one day. So with all that said, for everybody here at empowered to connect, for Becca McKay, for Kyle Wright, who edits, engineers, all of our audio, for Tad Jewett, the creator of music behind the empowered to connect podcast. I'm JD Wilson, and we'll see you next week on the empowered to connect podcast.