[E161] Let's Talk About Screen Time/Technology with Jesse Faris

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Empowered to Connect podcast, where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families and our communities. I'm JD. Wilson. And I'm your host. And today on the show, Becca McKay and Jesse Ferriss join us to talk about technology. So we titled this episode let's Talk About Technology. And when we say technology, we mean kind of the screen time electronics side of parenting. So if you are like at least in our family, and I know Jesse's family too, those requests come hot and heavy at times. And learning how to navigate technology can be really tricky when your kids get to that age where they start asking for that all the time. And so what we wanted to do today was just give kind of a filter, an overview, some practical suggestions here and there. But overall, a conversation about how to manage that, how to approach that, and then just some general guidelines that would apply to any family context that we believe is kind of the etc way, the connected parenting way of approaching this conversation. So it's a great conversation, I think very helpful. So if you are just starting off parenting in this world, this would be a great episode to listen to, to help kind of build that filter for yourself. So before we jump into the episode though, we do have such an exciting announcement that we've been announcing for a few weeks. But I want to let you know we have our first ever Global Connection event that's happening November twelveTH. It is going to be in Memphis, Tennessee at the Peabody Hotel, which a lot of times is called the South's Grandest Hotel. I say that because we have a very special guest coming, a Grammy nominated guest coming to be with us that night who is hilarious. And we would love for you to join us that night for this special guest and for an opportunity for us to do some fundraising work, share the vision of what we're doing, where we're going as an organization, and overall laugh together and have an absolute blast. So that is going to be happening November twelveTH from six to 08:30 P.m. In Memphis, Tennessee at the Peabody Hotel. You can find out more information about the event. You can buy tickets and all of that at empoweredtoconnect. Orginvestinginhope. So, Empoweredtoconnect.org Investinginhope, our guest is big enough that we are not allowed to mention their name on a public podcast. So it is going to be a private event, a closed event. It will be the smallest venue you could possibly see this person in this year. So before I say too much, I will let you go on that Empoweredtoconnect.org Investing in Hope to come join us for our first annual Global Connection event here in Memphis. Okay, I will say one more thing. It's going to be a night to remember, a very fun evening together of celebrating what's happened at ECC, laughing together, enjoying our time together, and then also getting to look toward the future of our organization's work. And so you can find more information empowertoconnect.org slash Investing in Hope. Here they are now. Jesse Ferriss and Becca McKay. Okay, so we are here today with Becca McKay and Jesse Ferris, and we're going to talk about technology. And so a bit of a disclaimer before we start. We are not going to touch the subject of social media per se today. So obviously that within the technology world has its own set of challenges and complications. We will talk about that sometime soon. But today we want to talk about technology, screen time, devices, all that whole world that if you are parenting like us, you just love this conversation and you just love the 90,000 requests per day for those things. So we wanted to talk about how we approach that and how we've seen that in our professional work in the background and just how EDC can look different in different places and different spaces. And so before we really dive into any practicalities, Jesse, when we think about how to approach this conversation, how do we approach this conversation from like a connected parenting viewpoint? [00:04:37] Speaker B: Yeah, let me just tell you guys, if you are like, oh, good, and you're listening to this podcast because you're like, I can't wait for the three things that JD tells us to do, that is the etc way, there's no one right way to deal with technology. And often when you think about etc something or thinking about something the etc way, there isn't just one way to do that. And I think JD and I are great examples of that in that there are some ways that we parent our kids very similarly and there are some ways that we parent our kids really differently. Because etc is not a way that you do something. It's a way that you think. And so that is the thing that we share. It's this mindset of being committed to connection with our kids, keeping that at the forefront of our decisions and kind of parenting with these connecting practices in mind. [00:05:36] Speaker A: That's right. [00:05:36] Speaker B: No matter what we're approaching, but in this case, technology, right. [00:05:41] Speaker A: You mentioned it. All of us are different. All of us have different personalities. We all have different pasts and backgrounds. Our kids have different personalities. There's different combinations of this kind of personality parent and this kind of personality kid. So when we try to give advice, the reason that you will never hear us say here's how you do this, and it's a prescriptive answer, is because you can't. Because in one home that's going to go fantastic, in the other home you're going to be lined up for therapy for the most hours you can imagine. [00:06:17] Speaker B: I think we could give that disclaimer at the beginning of every podcast, but I think it's extra important when we talk about technology because we really do as parents, all of us, all of us listening handle technology differently within each home. [00:06:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:06:33] Speaker B: And I don't think you need to hear what JD is doing or what I'm doing as like, oh no, that must mean I'm doing it wrong. [00:06:40] Speaker A: Right. [00:06:41] Speaker B: I think we are encouraging everyone to share the same mindset yes. Which has room for all of us in the decisions that we make. [00:06:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:06:51] Speaker A: And even, I mean, within our this gets trickier and this is probably unfair to even say because you're already thinking like, well, there's no answers, so what are you going to talk about? Even within our home, there are requests that come into me that get answered differently based on the kid and what they can handle right now. That doesn't mean one kid gets 3 hours of screen time, the other one gets 30 minutes. Because I say you can't handle it like they can. That's not what I mean. But there are kids in our family who they are able to turn it off easier. They're able to set some self limits and say, how long can I be? An hour? Oh, great, cool. And they bring the device back before the timer is even up. And there's others that have to be watched more carefully. And so if I say, then here's our blanket policy for our home, then I've set our family up for failure as well. Right. So we do have to do some blanket things. Just because a TV is a TV or movie time or whatever does not change per kid. But I would say that based on the personalities, there are times that I might give a yes in a certain situation if it's not going to interfere with somebody else because I know that kid can embrace a shorter limit than somebody else might be able to. So now that we have completely thrown off any thought of specific advice, I would say, why don't we? And Becca, you have dealt with this issue in a completely different way than we both have and how we're talking about it now. And so I don't know if you want to start now with talking about the way that you faced it when you were in the school setting and we can kind of go into it from there. [00:08:33] Speaker C: Yeah, I think so. When you're talking about what do you say yes to and what do you say no to, it's like you're bringing up what are the challenges associated with technology. And so with the hundreds and hundreds of kids that I've worked with over the years, there's some common patterns that come up. Right. The first question is at what age do you give a kid any device? At? Like, that's a question. And like Jesse said, different families answer that question different. Then you know the next question on the device. What apps do I allow? What is OK for my kid? And my cautionary tale here is I worked with a good number of parents who were older and less familiar with technology. And so a common thing that would come up was kind of this like, well, yeah, everyone else has a phone, so I guess you can have a phone. Sure you can have a phone and you tell me what you need on the phone. And I think the danger of doing kind of like a child led approach and just letting them tell you is what we would run into is a lot of different apps and games and things have features that you may or may not know about. So I'll be more clear, it won't be abstract. There's some games that you think is just a game that have an online chat feature. And what was happening with maybe third grader or a fifth grader is you'd have a young kid who was communicating with someone and they're like, well, this is also a kid. Well, they don't know the danger of catfishing and that it could be a grown adult somewhere saying, meet me at this bus stop for this reason. And they could be trying to lure the kid. And so there's some real dangers. And so if you are like an older parent, my encouragement to you, or not just older, like if you're not super tech savvy, my encouragement would be try out the things that you're saying yes to and find someone who is tech savvy, who is more aware to come alongside you in your circle. Like become friends with the young guy at church who can come and sit down with you and show you what different things do. Because if we just let it be determined by, well, the kids at school do this, so I want to do that. It's not always a good benchmark. There's like some real dangers and pitfalls. I've had kids that I've worked with before in different contexts who have maybe been expelled for cyberbullying, and their parent didn't even know that they were opening that door. They didn't mean to. They thought, oh, back in the olden days, we would just play our game. My husband says, I am an 82 year old in a young body. Not everyone is out here wanting to just play Tetris for hours. That's not what they're into. I am P. S. Side note the number one Tetris player in Memphis, Tennessee. So we all enjoy technology, use technology different ways. How do we make sure that we're aware of what it is that we're opening the door to and saying yes? [00:11:30] Speaker A: Mean, first of all, you talk about old parents. I feel like I'm unbelievably tech savvy and I've had the wool pull over my eyes before and not even intentionally. And that's, I think, the scariest part when we have this conversation and why it does tend to be so polarizing is that as you become more aware of the dangers of the internet. You're like, oh, so we're just going to live off the grid and we're never going to anywhere near a screen. Like we don't even need solar power because we're not even going to have light bulbs. I don't even know what they're putting in the light bulbs these days. [00:12:02] Speaker B: 2020 happens and we're all stuck, right? [00:12:06] Speaker A: And so I think the thing that can be scary is that you can give some permissions thinking everything is completely fine and then find out later, to your horror, that there were gaps in the protections that you didn't know about and that a kid didn't know about, and a kid might have unintentionally stumbled into some pretty bad stuff. Right? And so be it pornography or chats or YouTube is dicey as well. And so this is the point of the conversation where everything from partisan politics to denominations within churches to personal values and ambitions start to splinter different ways. So rather than go on a diatribe about it, internet can be a dangerous place no matter what you believe, who you are, what age you are, anywhere. So that's the reason to be very careful with connected devices to begin with. And then second some resources and we won't spend a lot of time here on this. One resource that I will give you that I do tend to like is protectyoungis.com. Nothing I ever endorse online will ever be a 100% uniform. I co sign everything they say. It can be a helpful starting point. They have little quizzes you can take to see is your home internet protected and safe and they're keeping up with all of the latest workarounds and stuff that develop and all the latest kind of scary stuff so that you can kind of look and get a guide for how to resource your home. So I would say one of the things that we tended to do when our kids came of technology age, we don't have any kids that are big gamers, yet we have stayed away from online gaming to this point. And that's not to say that online gaming is the devil or some kind of whatever just for us and our kids personalities. We stayed away from it from a time standpoint for right now. So they can play games, they're not connected, they can play two K, they can play Smash Bros. Whatever. And then once their time is up on that, then they move on to something else. [00:14:01] Speaker C: Saturday, can I pause you there? [00:14:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:03] Speaker C: Because I think another challenge that a lot of parents face is how do we get them off? I think if we're kind of thinking about big buckets, like a challenge is at what age, how long? And then I think a really common challenge is like, okay, whatever the time limit, your time limit may be 30 minutes or it may be 6 hours. And what you heard us kind of start off by saying is no judgment either way. [00:14:25] Speaker A: Right. [00:14:26] Speaker C: But at some point, whenever the device has to go off for whatever reason, how have you all handled have you had any experience where kids had a hard time with that? How have you supported kids through that? [00:14:39] Speaker A: I'm not our kids always get off right. [00:14:40] Speaker B: With their first. [00:14:43] Speaker A: I don't even do that right. So that's one thing I think, as a starting point, is like, I have a hard time transitioning away from something if it's yeah. [00:14:51] Speaker B: How many of us are up late at night watching just one more episode? [00:14:55] Speaker C: Just one more episode, and it auto play. [00:14:57] Speaker B: Auto start. [00:14:58] Speaker C: Yes. I'm still watching while you're talking about. [00:15:00] Speaker B: Whether you want to there it yeah. [00:15:03] Speaker A: So it's hard for again, we'll go back to some of our other greatest hit episodes. Robin Goeble talked with us about how the lying thing gets real tricky if you start to examine word for word everything you say. Right? So we got to filter ourselves first. Right. Transitions when you're doing something that's fun are hard when you have to shift into something responsible or boring. Right. So I'm getting some screen time, and then after that, I'm going to have to go do my chores outside or vice versa, whatever. That transition is terrible. So we try to handle it the way we do with other transitions. I think our stereotypical example is like, you're at the park and it's time to leave, and you got to give whatever. We do the same thing with technology. So Saturday mornings are pretty wild at our house because of sports. So while a kid or two might get to have some TV time on Saturday morning, as long as they leave mom or dad alone, that usually is interrupted by, all right, time to get dressed. We got to get out to the race or out to practice or out to recital or whatever. And so Saturday Morning is not that great sunday morning, though, elizabeth and I are also 80 years old, and we love to watch Sunday Morning on CBS. [00:16:11] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:16:12] Speaker A: It comes on at eight. It's off at 930. So when that show is on, we're like, hey, you all watch a movie, TV show, whatever. They know what they're allowed to watch, and so they're able to do that as long as you don't interrupt our program. B-R-O-G-R-U-M. [00:16:27] Speaker B: It's getting worse and worse, isn't it? [00:16:29] Speaker A: So we do that because there's a hard and fast deadline. Sunday morning goes off. The nature moment happens. It's beautiful. It's awesome. We're always like, we should go visit there. And then it starts with the political show starts next. As soon as Face the Nation or whatever it is, comes on, the kids know, all right, guys, hey, listen, we're going to go ahead and turn the TV off. It's a set time on a watch. It's a set program. They can hear the steam music change, and they know that change is coming that gives a very easy and natural break. And sometimes then there's the ask for a compromise. And we will handle that as we handle it. Other times, whether we're going to church or if we've got somewhere else to be, then there's like a hey, we can't compromise right now, but how about this? If we can get our stuff done today, we'll give some more time in the afternoons. The weekends tend to be our time where we try to use some TV time as some negotiating tactics to get some stuff done. If we need two chores or whatever else, we during the week don't do TV time because the transitions are too hard and the windows are too tight. [00:17:27] Speaker B: Time wise, I'll say this about transitions. We often talk about using ourselves as the parent, as a bridge that if you connect with them just a little bit, that kind of eases the transition. And just as I was thinking about how we handle transitions out of technology or away from it, I think that's probably what we do the most. And I'll give two examples. The first is if a kid is playing a game on a phone or iPad or maybe watching a show and they're having a tough time turning it off. I mean, I'm not going to lie. I'm like every other parent that's like. [00:18:05] Speaker A: Time to turn it off. [00:18:07] Speaker B: But if I notice actually, that is not going to be an easy transition. This time I'll ask my daughter to show me, like, show me, show me how you got to that level. Or can I watch you play until this round is done and just connect just a little bit and be like, hey. And after that, we need to get our shoes on so we can get in the car. That helps. And I also anticipated so I'll throw Nick under the bus with this one. Love you, Nick. For his 40th birthday, I got him an Xbox. And he used to play when we were younger and then had many years where he was not playing video games. And so it was just like reconnecting with the childhood joy for him. So it's kind of Dad's Xbox the girls don't get to play with play it. But in recent months, he has kind of opened that up as a connection tool with them. And he each has games that he plays with our daughters, and they only get to play when they play with him. Every now and then he'll let them play on their own, but only if they play with each other, which goes really beautifully. No, actually they fight the whole time. But he uses that as a connection tool. And I just find that really interesting. And so if they're playing with him, he's guiding them through that frustration when something's not going the way they wanted. Maybe their character keeps dying a lot and they're like, no, he's helping them with that frustration or when it's time to get off, he's helping in modeling, like, oh, man, this is so fun. And, okay, once we reach the other end of this log or whatever it is, we're going to turn it off. Okay. I think that also really helps kind of model how that happens. [00:20:00] Speaker A: Yeah, we talked before about sometimes you budget extra time in the park setting. I keep going back to that. I sometimes will say, all right, guys, hey, we got to wrap. And I'll kind of bait them into asking for a compromise and say, hey, guys, we got to start wrapping it up. Oh, no. Come on. Well, hold on. Oh, I didn't know you were here. Oh, you only have the fourth quarter left. Tell you what. How about this? If you will get off when it's done, when the fourth quarter is over, then come downstairs and you all make sure you put the stuff back up when you're done. And then it's like, oh, yeah, thanks. Because then, one, it's an easy transition for them. It's the end of the game, blah, blah, blah. Two, they kind of know by now, like, starting a new game totally out of balance because of how long it takes. So that's less of a temptation to try and squeeze one more or something in. [00:20:52] Speaker C: Yeah, I think, too, if you're listening and you're like, every time we get off, you all don't understand. I'm talking about TVs are breaking, stuff's getting thrown. So I just want you to hear, like, if you're in that boat, yes, that happens. And like you've both said, different kids respond to technology differently. And so one of our best pieces of advice is to just be really curious and get to know your specific kid. And so when you get to know your specific kid, there's lots of options for limits that are available to you as an adult. I was just talking to a friend the other day, and I had no idea. There's, like, apps that will turn off the device at a certain time limit. And so I just want to throw out there. You may be in a world where you're having to do more, quote unquote, serious limits. You may be in a world where it's okay for them to be more flexible or more loose or spend more time. I'm thinking about my brother for a time when he was a kid, he had to wear a back brace because he had Kyphosis and he was really into sports. And there was a time when he couldn't play sports because he had to wear this back brace for 23 hours a day. It was really painful. It was really restrictive, and it took away a huge outlet for him with sports. And so during that time, I don't remember there really being any screen time limits for him. It was a time, a season where that was his outlet because he wasn't able to do the physical sports, and then he made it through. And in college, he played all kinds of inner murals, and it wasn't forever. There's different seasons. And so I think my encouragement, if you're having a lot of trouble, one, you're not alone if your kid is struggling to get off of technology. Two, just because they're struggling doesn't mean you're setting the wrong limit. Limits are hard to experience. I stayed up way too late last night, funnily enough, because I couldn't stop watching it was watching a documentary. It was really interesting to me, and I could not stop watching it. [00:22:55] Speaker B: You mean you were watching the coolest new show all the 20 year olds are watching? [00:22:58] Speaker C: I was watching the cool new show I actually was watching. I'm sure the 20 year olds were watching this documentary, but I was watching it. I couldn't stop. And I'm like watching the time go by and I know tomorrow morning is really going to be hard. Like, it's really going to be hard. But I still made that choice. So I think if we as adults right now, what's the difference? As an adult, I can wake up and I can still drink enough coffee and have a day. Like, I can still get to work on time. I can still do the things I'm supposed to do. It's hard because kids, sometimes they don't have that executive function to be able to then do the thing that they have to get to school and be able to listen and not fall asleep in class and whatever the other things are. I just wanted to highlight this idea of like, man, if you are really in the trenches and it is really hard right now, you have options too. You jumping in might not giving them five more minutes might not be enough. And the point of this episode is not to tell you what to do. We're going to keep saying that the point is just to talk through some different ideas. [00:24:07] Speaker B: Can I tag something on that may not be popular? And you all just dialogue with me if you don't agree or if you have some other perspectives on that. I think it's okay to take technology away from a kid from a season or to limit it so much that they don't have access to it. And I say that let me preface that statement by saying I think a lot of the ways that we as parents tend to approach technology and I'll throw myself in with all the rest of us, is reactively. Oh gosh, it is reacting to something that has already happened, happening, something that we've already allowed, something we're already seeing. A lot of my thought process outside of the moment after the kids have gone to bed, or as I'm maybe using a piece of technology myself without my children, I'm trying to think a little more proactively and intentionally, and that's what I want to encourage us to do is that way we can respond rather than react. That's very etc mindset. Having said that, sometimes we give access to something and we realize, you know what? This is not benefiting this kid in this season. Maybe we gave access to a piece of technology when they were too young or maybe they're lacking some skills. Like Becca's saying maybe things are getting broken and it's not just a one time thing, but you're repeatedly trying a lot of different strategies and the kid can't handle I think it's okay to limit the use of that. And when I say limit, I mean even maybe take it away for a season. Not punitively, not shaming, but in a way that is like I'm thinking of this is extreme, but I'm thinking of how technology is addictive and we don't allow ourselves access to other things that we're addicted to. Well, sometimes we do like sugar or caffeine or whatever, but if we're being mindful and paying attention and not just reacting as adults, it's our job to pay attention to how different things in our lives affect us and what that's true for our kids, too. So one of the reasons that my husband plays video games with our daughters is because we also know that particularly if ADHD is involved, that it's very easy to get into the flow of playing a video game and it's very hard to get off that's right. And we didn't want to wait and see if that would be difficult for our daughters. So that was kind of how we eased into that world versus letting them play and then finding out two broken TVs later that we wished that we had implemented some more limits first. [00:27:07] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think that we try to be very thoughtful about giving consequences. Right? Like, it's far down the list on things, but you mentioned it, Jesse, and if you're going through your several different checkpoints and you're being playful and you're giving some structure and you do all that and there does come a point where you have to give a consequence. We want that level at the behavior. And part of the scaffolding is to then if it needs to be attached to technology, say, hey, right now, this is something that's hard to handle. I want to help you learn how to handle that, but you're not able to do that in your own yet. So we're going to give these limits and help you experience what that feels like so that you can kind of know in the future, hey, if it gets to this point, here's how I can impose some limits on myself. And that way there's again, proactive and a helpful aspect to that consequence. Instead of like, that's it no today for the week, get out. If you have to give a consequence, if it's got to be level that technology, that's probably the right way to phrase it with. Your kids is to scaffold it. We are helping you to learn how to have some limits. They are not going to like it. It's not going to be great. The conversation is probably going to be awful. But you come out of that with your kids able to see, oh, man, this probably was something that was going a little bit too far. [00:28:27] Speaker C: And I think if they see it or like I agree with what you're saying, Jesse. I think my caution would be, again, making sure we're not doing it in a punitive way or a shaming way, but I think I've seen this a lot. And you may be thinking of teenagers, but I'm also thinking of my toddler nieces and nephews of during the summer when my sisters have been trying to figure out summer and they've started with lots and lots of screen time and then seen some like, oh, this is really hurting them. They're really dysregulated. And so whenever we can for a time remove some of that and fight through a little bit of the detox, then on the other side of it, we can have more fun and we can have more. Also stepping on some toes, what are we modeling for our kids? I was about to and then I talked myself out of it. I was about to open up my screen time on my phone and just look at that number. But I'm nervous of what it will say. But I think people have different personalities. You may be a personality. I know someone who in 2023 uses a flip phone and only uses it for text messages because this person decided, I don't want to be on my phone. That is not the choice I've made. And so I'm on my phone quite a bit. If we think about if we are setting some loving limits, put yourself in the mirror and see what are you modeling for your kids? A lot of us sometimes use technology to quiet our kids down and give us time to do things like I need to clean the kitchen, I need to do my work, I need to answer this email, I need to talk to this person on the phone. And so what can be confusing for kids is we can really be on a yoyo of the limit is an hour, for example, except on this Tuesday, I really have stuff to do. And so you're just going to sit in front of the TV all day. No shame. I think every adult has I've done that with kids I've worked with at school. So I am not throwing any adult under the bus. But I think we do that and it can be confusing for kids. [00:30:41] Speaker B: That can feel inconsistent. And I appreciate you talking about the nuance in that too, because I think in my personal approach, I am constantly wanting to keep from getting to that place where I'm having to respond to something that's already happening. I tend to give access to technology cautiously, so I'm already imposing limits before my kids have even had access to it yet. It's kind of my approach to it. That's not everybody's approach, but I'd rather limit it in the first place than have to take it away later is kind of the way I tend to be now. I will say I think we've all experienced when kids get things wrong, when kids mess up with technology, maybe they got into something that they didn't mean to get into. Maybe they did get into something they meant to get into and they were hiding it or whatever else. But I think I would also caveat what I said with the encouragement that I don't think imposing limits as a punishment really fixes anything. And even when we talk about all of these ways that we can limit and place limits on our kids technology use, those can be really helpful tools. But they are helpful tools, in my opinion, only if they're used with the connection that you have with your kid. Because if you're limiting a kid without partnering with them, they're just going to find ways to get around your limits or they're going to wait you out and then get back to what they were getting on with. [00:32:24] Speaker A: Yeah, we've got to set our kids up for success in that front. And so when you know that you've got a kid that is not going to be able to handle a limit responsibly, you've got to preemptively build the scaffolding yourself so that that kid is experiencing it without the opportunity. You're not giving them the opportunity to fail when you know that's impending. Right. We talked about this, I think, with food before. If you know that sneaking sweet treats at night is really easy for X, Y or Z child, everybody doesn't go upstairs to bed at one time and leave that kid in the kitchen doing homework by himself or herself. Because you're setting them up for failure that way. Right. [00:33:09] Speaker B: You're saying my family should stay up. [00:33:11] Speaker C: Till I go to bed? Yes. Typically calling. [00:33:18] Speaker A: To give a technology example, our boys have an old TV and like a Nintendo Switch. It's hard to describe because our house is 100 years old. It's not the way that you're probably thinking, but like around a nook in a corner in their room. They can't be seen from their bed or whatever, but there's limits on those devices. So that if there was a desire to get up in the middle of the night and play games, whatever, not even literally possible. Right. So there's also missing cords at different times where I know that it could be an issue. So we try to set them up and there was a trial period of that where we were like, is this going to work? We've got some limits imposed. We let them know that in the front end. So it wasn't a trick. Like we weren't booby trapping their room to try and see if they were going to get up and then run out and go, got you. The we said, hey, let's see if this can happen. And then when there's sleepovers and whatever, there will be some looser game limits there, but let's see. They handled it great. And then they do so many activities that most weeks they're dead asleep in bed before they could even think about, I want to see if I can find that power cord and get the game going or whatever. So because in our particular context, our kids personalities, their lives, schedules, all that, that works, you might have a kid at home that you're like, that would be an absolute nightmare. No way would I do that. Awesome. Great. So I think that's to bring the conversation back full circle, like all of these things we give as some suggestions. The real meat here, like the real treasure here, is to dig in with the knowledge you have of your kids, your family dynamic, your schedule situations, all that, and communicate together and on the front end about how you're going to use technology and then use etc principles as you're applying it. You can give some compromises, but when time's up, time's up. And help them transition. And if that's a very hard transition, go sit with them, ask them about what they're playing first, and let's look toward a common goal. It'll be an easier break for them, those kind of things. [00:35:26] Speaker C: And when they inevitably hit those bumps in the road, we just want to repair, reflect, readjust. That's our connecting practice that we always come back to is like, no matter the limits that you set, there will come a point as your kid grows where they do something that is maybe outside of your family values or maybe is harmful to them or whatever, a sibling, it could be big or small. And when those bumps in the road or those big bumps in the road come up, we want to repair the relationship. We want to reflect on the situation, what happened, what led to it, and then readjust not only the support that we're providing, not only the limit, but also our own expectations, what does that tell us about where this kid is and what they might need? So we just always want to be sensitive to that question. What does this kid, at this age, in this context, need right now? [00:36:24] Speaker B: Let me say, too, I think when we talk about relationship and connection around these things or repair, reflect, wait, I always get them in the wrong order. Becca repair, reflect, readjust right. In that order or other orders. I think it practically means, like, talk to your kids. Let's stop using these technology tools to parent our kids. They can't parent our kids. They can help us set limits, but we need to talk to our kids like if they are trying to skirt limits or if they messed up. What was motivating them? Yes, I wonder why talk to them about that. Talk about why they were using their phone in the middle of the night or why they downloaded that app when they weren't supposed to. Or why they got on that website when it's supposed to be blocked. What was driving that need or curiosity or desire? Our kids have grown up in a different world than a lot of us have. Really? All of us. I mean, it doesn't matter how young or old you are, your kids in a different generation and they have access to technology in a way that no other generation older than them did. And so they know how to use technology better than we do. It is a little bit scary for those of us who think of ourselves as tech savvy and early adopters in the technology world, it comes second nature to our kids in a way that it just never will to us. [00:38:04] Speaker A: Right. [00:38:05] Speaker B: But I think we can learn from them and you know what? They can still learn from us because the things that are driving them to be curious or to have certain desires or to feel certain emotions, those have been part of the human nature from the beginning of time ever, right? [00:38:25] Speaker A: Yes. [00:38:26] Speaker B: So are they lonely? Are they scared? Are they bored? Those are the things that we can connect with them in relationship. Those should always, always be a part of our repairing, reflecting readjusting process. [00:38:40] Speaker A: My last thing here would just be especially in that let's say there's confrontation that has to happen and some conversation that has to happen as a result of like a past limit, busted limit, whatever it is just vital to before you're going to talk to that kid, think about the actual why not because I said so. And probably not many of you would go there. But it's not just an oversimplified, nothing but really digging and thinking. Make sure you have a clear knowledge of like well, here's why this is a limit, why this is healthy, here's what we're trying to kind of protect you from and then here's the reason we're doing this. And for us and our family, the end result is always our responsibility to help you launch out of this house into the world as a healthy person who knows how to thrive. And so when there's things that happen that are unhealthy, it's our literal job to just help you know why that's something to avoid, and then to help you prepare to be able to do that on your own. To avoid those things on your own or to know. Like, man, this is a habit, a path or a practice that leads down a path that it's really hard to get back from. So that's the reason it's blocked off in this house. We don't want you to go down there because we don't want to want you to have to experience getting stuck in those things. [00:40:06] Speaker B: Think of two things too related to that. The first is also listen to your kids after you tell them your why. Listen to their why. Because there are some things that are maybe not related to anything moral or value related, but maybe reasons that I had for a limit that I drew, that after I listened to my kids why? I realized, you know what, I can reflect and readjust on this. Why don't I meet this kid with where their true need is? Guys, we can change our minds, too. And it's okay if our kids change our minds. On the flip side, guess what? When we make limits, our kids will push up against them. That's what limits are for. I mean, that's not a popular thing. It does not feel great as parents, but I think for some of us, maybe all of us, when our kids push up against the limits that we create, say, oh, all the other kids get to do this or that or this is so unfair. You don't love me, you don't like me. All the things that we all hear, even though we all have different limits, that's so weird. Yeah, that is what limits are for, guys. And I'll tell you, I will guarantee you, if you changed the limit and allowed more, they would push against that one, too, 100%. It's part of how we communicate to our kids that we love them. They are never going to acknowledge that, but they feel safe and loved when we create limits, never say never. [00:41:38] Speaker C: Because they might be 32 and they might call their dad and they might say, dad, I see now what you did then, don't we? [00:41:46] Speaker B: One can dream, you know, when we're. [00:41:48] Speaker C: Kids, don't we all say, like, when I'm a parent, I'll never and how many of us, upon further reflection, have seen some of the value? Oh, gosh, I just don't think you can overstate how much the world has changed, how much technology is part of the day to day, part of the way that we communicate, connect, absorb information, learn new things. And so I think learning and being willing to make mistakes along the way is just so important. Like as we just kind of find our way through, we figure our way forward, we make missteps, we change our minds, like you said. But we're just trying to empower our kids to be adults that can have a healthy relationship with technology. And I don't always have a healthy relationship with technology, so it's not like it stops the day you turn 18. It's a lifelong process. [00:42:38] Speaker B: I think we can be creative, too, about the world that our kids live in. And let me give a quick example. JD. Talked about scaffolding, and I have really been, I mean, I'm going to say even obsessed with this idea in terms of technology in terms specifically of cell phones for my kids, because my kids have never grown up in a home with a home phone. My husband and I have always had cell phones. That might be true in your homes as well. So you reach this awkward point in elementary school where the kids start texting each other or, like, calling each other or wanting to see if the other can come over and play or whatever else, and it's coming to your phone. And so then you're having to correspond with all your friend or your kids friends. [00:43:25] Speaker A: If you've experienced this, you know that they texted a different frequency than adults do. [00:43:31] Speaker B: Your phone is blowing up. And so I think reactively, so many of us and if this is you, totally, we all make our own choices. But I'll tell you, I was observing a lot. I love to watch what other people do and then decide, do I like what happened in that scenario? Or how could it have been different? I'm not saying I'm just judging all of you, but right. I'm learning from what I see. Yeah, I'm just judging some of you, and I'm just kidding. I like to learn from what I see and observe. So I was seeing a lot of, like, reactively when this happens, you give your kid a phone because that means it's time for them to be able to correspond. And what inevitably happens, like, a week later, the phone gets taken away because they're not using it appropriately. But I've got to be honest. I always felt for the kid because it was like, well, how was the kid supposed to know what to do with the phone or what not to do with the phone? And again, if this is you and has happened in your home, I'm serious. No judgment to you. I think it's a really common scenario. So I thought to myself, okay, I've got kids in maybe it was, like, kindergarten and fourth grade at the time. I'm like, what do I do about this? We're not there yet, but we are very close to being there because my phone is blowing up with all of these dumb texts from fourth graders or whatever. Our family solution was, what are you doing? I really missed the old days where, when we were kids, let's shail our 82 year old self. When we were kids, people would call the home phone, and your sibling would answer. Your parents would answer. They'd pick a message for you, blah, blah. I was like, I wish that was the way that it worked. And that kind of birthed this idea of scaffolding for me. So we have a family cell phone. That's how we have handled it. We bought an iPhone because I think I knew eventually that is the kind of phone that my kids would want to use, so I decided to buy what they would eventually want to use. So I could teach them how to use it appropriately. It is a phone that everyone has access to. It is a phone that everyone can read all the messages on. There is nothing private on it. And that is how my oldest child started learning how to correspond with her friends. When she turned 13, she got access to her own Apple Watch that is not connected to any of our phones. She has her own phone number, but it's managed through my phone in family sharing. And so she got kind of a new level of independence, and she can now text her friends, and I cannot read her texts. I can read them on the family phone, but not on her personal watch. Right. So we're kind of trying to scaffold that independence in technology while we teach what is appropriate. So every now and then they were like, that family phone blows up because they're on, like, group text with the whole grade or whatever, and you'll see TikTok links come through or people posting pictures. And instead of being like, no, you've lost access to the 6th grade group chat. [00:46:43] Speaker A: Right? [00:46:44] Speaker B: I would say things like, wow, I noticed so and so posted a link to that TikTok video. I wonder if you watched it and you could see the kid be like, did you watch it? The wheels are turning. It didn't seem really appropriate. It kind of seemed like it wasn't appropriate for a 6th grader. What did you think about it? And she would be like, I agree, but I don't ever. [00:47:10] Speaker C: We would have. [00:47:11] Speaker B: Conversations about them, right? Or like, oh, I noticed so and so posted a picture of herself in a bathing suit. Would you ever do that in a group text? [00:47:20] Speaker A: Right? [00:47:20] Speaker B: I wonder if that person ever realized that that could be copied and pasted to other text messages, right. Being able to talk about that and not remove access from it, or not shame my child for seeing it, but wow, it's such a great little opportunity for conversation. So thank you to all of the 6th grade I'm just kidding. For helping us have conversations about how to use technology. My goal is that one day when they get their own phone, that they will have already made decisions for themselves, and so I'm not going to have to be imposing so many external limits. I don't know. I don't know what you guys with 16 year olds are like, oh, just wait. Or 17 or 18. [00:48:08] Speaker A: But yeah, no, we did a similar thing. Our kids this is not an endorsement, but they have gab phones. It's like a phone company. There's no social media, no Internet, no apps, whatever on the phone. They can group text, they can send pictures. And we had the same conversation. Hey, just want you to know for your safety, your accountability, periodically, we'll do it with you sometimes, and so you'll hear the difference how we do this, and jesse does this. We'd say, hey, sometimes we're going to read your text with you and we'll just kind of just catch up with your friends and see who's doing what or whatever. And then sometimes just to make sure that you always know this. So the pressure is off for you to try to hide stuff. Sometimes after you go to bed, we're going to check text and just make sure that everybody's staying safe. And if there's anything that we need to know about because of the danger somebody else might be in, that we're aware. And so just know while you have a phone in our house, we're always going to do that for your safety. And we say that because they're 13 and twelve right now. And so at some point, we might decide to let them have some more privacy if we feel like that is healthy. But for right now, I'm like, until you die, we're going to watch you. [00:49:22] Speaker C: Look at your text. [00:49:23] Speaker A: You won't have social media. No. So that has been something that we did not want to set them up to try to hide stuff. Right. Everybody has that one idiot friend who sends something inappropriate. Again, back in our day, it was to the Instant Messenger chat. They would send something inappropriate. And if your mom was in the room while you're on Instant Messenger, you're. [00:49:44] Speaker B: Like, embarrassed to say, that was after my day, actually. [00:49:50] Speaker A: So I was right in the I'm. [00:49:53] Speaker B: Like, I mailed me something in the mail. Maybe left embarrassing voicemail in the answering. [00:50:02] Speaker A: Prank called prank called the house or something and said something super like, I bet that was Benny. I'm like, no. So, anyways, we don't want to be. [00:50:11] Speaker B: Judged for your friend making poor choices. [00:50:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And we just try to set them up to know, hey, we're here as your guides to help you. So with that known, now that you know we're going to look at text, you just know you're not going to get in trouble for somebody texting you something. But if there's something appropriate that's happening, we will talk to you about it. We will not talk to the other kids about it. We are not going to have the two of you together to pit you against each other, but we will talk to you separately. And chances are you will never know when somebody else has had a text conversation because we will make it insanely private and just between us and that kid, right? And that has helped to take away any kind of pressure to hide or like, you walk around the corner, there's no, like, oh, what are you looking at now, it doesn't stop siblings from being like, oh, what song is that that you're listening? So there are times that we just help them with some limits, with some guides, but that has been a way that's been good for us and it's set a healthy starting point. There's times every night where they got a phone has to go on the charger. So all that said, you hear it, it's different for all of us. And by the time this podcast comes out, there'll be a new technology we haven't looked at yet that's wrecking and. [00:51:25] Speaker B: Or catch us in three years when we're all pulling our hair. This I think just talking with your kids, I mean, I think that is what you hear JD doing. It is what we do in our home, like being able to talk to each other. And one of the reasons that we put these limits this way, particularly on cell phones with our kids, was we know how addictive they are for us as adults. We didn't even get access to smartphones until we were like after I was married and I was in my mid twenty s, I almost had a fully developed brain by the time that happened, is the way I tell my teenager. So I want her to learn how to have a school lunch while looking at her classmates. And she'll be like, It's so annoying though, mom. Everyone gets on their phones. I'm like, and how does that feel? What does that seem like? What do you wish? And I think having her observe the world around her with her friends that do have access, even though she hates the limits that we set, I think that helps her see some value in those limits. [00:52:36] Speaker A: And the only Vindication that you need I don't mean literally only, but the only Vindication that you need as a parent is when some drama pops off at school and your kid has the peace of knowing they couldn't. Have been a part of it because they're not on X, Y or Z network or they don't have that kind of phone or whatever. And that may be too personalized of an example, but I mean, there was a moment that a friend group that one of our kids was in got called to the office for something that was happening online. And that kid was able to say, yeah, I'm not on social media. I'm not allowed. And they're like, all right, you're dismissed. And they were like, yes. And they just walked out of the office and did not have to bear the burden of all of this stuff from undeveloped brains that had happened online. [00:53:22] Speaker C: I know we're wrapping up, but I do want to say online has real world consequences, like online interactions. And so, from my experience working in schools, there was not just one or two, there was dozens of times that a conversation, an interaction, something started on phones, online, on technology, whether it was texting, calling, social media, any of those things, and then bled into altercations, arguments, bullying, drama at school. [00:53:54] Speaker A: Tell the age group you were working. [00:53:55] Speaker C: With for elementary students. Yeah, pre K through fifth grade. And so in that range, there was just stuff just happens and most often the most serious stuff that was happening was with parents that just really were not aware of how much kids are using it to communicate. And kind of these, like it's like sending them to a playground where there's no playground monitor. It's kind of what you're doing. Yeah. No guardrails. [00:54:23] Speaker A: All the play structures are 100ft high. [00:54:25] Speaker C: Yeah. So it's just something to be aware of. Right. If you hear nothing else, I hope that you've heard, talk to your kids and be involved in the conversation with them. You might decide after listening to this, you're going to set very different limits from anything that I've said or JD said or Jesse has said. You might decide, no, my kid is going to have a phone, and I don't believe in policing. It great. Have conversations, be open, be willing to talk, be willing to evaluate and just see what works for your family and for that specific kid. [00:54:58] Speaker B: Yes. That was my fear in the three of us having this conversation, just because, JD, I know you and I maybe are more on toward one end of a spectrum of limits, and so if you find yourself at another end of that spectrum, it is totally okay. We are not saying everyone needs to draw the line where we draw the line, but it is what Becca is saying, and also that technology can be a wonderful thing and that we use it to connect with our kids. I just texted my kid before we started this podcast. I love to text my daughter. I love to watch television shows that she asks about and are interested in with. Like, it can be a really fun way to connect. And Becca and I often talk about the rituals that we have based around lines from movies or TV shows that our family has watched together. So it can be a fun thing to do and a fun way to connect. [00:55:58] Speaker A: All right, quick hitters before we go. Now, we've been asking our guests that, and then Becca and I have been answering them, but we talked about how unsustainable that is on the front end of this podcast. Like, how am I supposed to have a different answer every time? So we will just say, as our wonderful first responders head to solve a problem in the city here, we will just say on the front end, we may or may not have answers to all the sections today, but Jesse will. [00:56:26] Speaker B: I'm honored to be your guest. Thanks, guys. [00:56:29] Speaker A: In the future, you can opt out of some questions, too, if you want, but some quick hitter questions. So what is something that you are reading, listening to, or watching right now that you like? [00:56:38] Speaker B: Oh, I read, listen to, and watch. I'm just a consumer. I love let's see. I just finished reading a book called Hello, Beautiful. I'm scared about pronouncing the last name correctly, but it's from Annapolitano. I think. I'm sorry, Anne, if that's not the way you pronounce your last name. It was a beautifully written family saga and it has a lot of themes of attachment and trauma in it. So I read everything through the etc lens mindset. But it was interesting to read that book and think about family connections. [00:57:22] Speaker A: Okay. [00:57:26] Speaker B: I've been watching Suits right now with Nick, so that's our one more episode show right now. And there are like 15 billion seasons, so it's the perfect show. It's great for that and listening. I'm a little behind on this, but I was just raving about a podcast episode this morning to Becca that was done with the lazy genius and her friend Laura Tremaine and they were talking about so interesting. [00:57:57] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, cool. And then you are allowed to have a I always say dinner guests and then I say whatever meal. So I will say a guest to your home. You're going to eat a meal in the day. What guest or guests are you having? And then what is that meal going to be? [00:58:14] Speaker B: I just want to say up front that I really hate this question. It gives me a lot of people pleasing social anxiety vibes. So if you hate my answer, I still want to be your friend listeners. That having been said or like, I'm worried it's going to be too basic or say something terrible about me or whatever, it's just an icebreaker for me. [00:58:41] Speaker A: That lives in the internet forever. Go ahead. [00:58:43] Speaker B: All right, guys, I'm just going to say, I do think Barack Obama and Michelle Obama are two very incredible individuals who led at a season of their lives that I feel like I'm kind of entering myself and I would love for them to come to my would want. I'm sorry, Mr. And Mrs. Obama, but I would not cook for you. I really value the takeout that they always talked about them going out to get when they were in the White house. So I would love for Barack and Michelle to pick up some takeout from their favorite spot and bring it to my yeah. And I want to learn about how they raised two strong black. [00:59:29] Speaker C: Want to I want to make you feel better because I have an answer to this question and it's going to be a little embarrassing, but I'm going to say it. Okay. My husband is a gigantic Kansas City chiefs fan and a gigantic Taylor Swift fan. So this week my answer would have to be if I was picking this week, it would have to be Travis, Kelsey and Taylor Swift because I would just be fascinating. And then what would I make know? Kansas City is known for their barbecue. Nashville tries to be known for their barbecue. I would get them some good Memphis barbecue and bring it to dinner. [01:00:06] Speaker A: Settle it. [01:00:07] Speaker B: Yeah, perfect. [01:00:08] Speaker A: Oh, man. [01:00:09] Speaker B: And then Taylor would write a song. [01:00:10] Speaker C: About Taylor song about Memphis maybe about me. Maybe Taylor was just about Becca McKay. [01:00:16] Speaker B: The best 82 year old she's ever met. [01:00:21] Speaker A: I will say something that I watched, that this is probably uninteresting to every single one of you. I don't care. I've got the microphone right now, so I love to ride my bike. I had a season of doing triathlons. I think that season might be done for the time being because I hate swimming. But there is a documentary on the Tour de France called Tour de France unchained. And it's like a sort of cinematic style, like, following of a couple of different riders and teams and just showing the chaos of that race. And it is so physically demanding and grueling. And then the things that are happening with those people are wild. And there is one episode, if you only watch one episode, just to see what I'm talking about. And I've given the don't judge me disclaimer before, so I'm done giving it. I don't care if you judge me for this. I love this. But there's an episode called I think it's called Descent, and it is an episode about there's a huge climb on one side of the stages, and then I think it's like a 16 miles descent. So you're riding down a mountain on a bike for 16 miles and you're racing everybody. And there is a guy who enters the top of the climb in third or fourth place minutes behind everybody else who's still racing. And he goes at speeds up to 65 miles an hour on a bike down the side of a mountain and catches the lead group, catches the lead guy. It is electric. And you feel like you were the one riding the bike when you get done with it because it's just shot so well. You get a sense of the speed and you're like, oh, my God, I'm totally watching that. [01:01:57] Speaker B: I'm really glad for that recommendation because I super love, like, extreme sports things. [01:02:03] Speaker A: And they do a great job of capturing the stories. It's all international riders. And so it's a guy who was a professional mountain bike rider who usually they're psychopaths, and he transitioned into road bike racing. And so it's an awesome it's episode six. Just go watch it. It's so good. All right, last question. What is giving you life right now? [01:02:24] Speaker B: Guys, I have a real Bible y answer, so all the Christians listening are going to love this. And maybe yeah, maybe. I'm a teaching leader for Bible Study fellowship, actually. And what is giving me life is that we are studying the Book of John this year. I'm getting to teach through it, and that is giving me life. It is just such an amazing book. And I have been a Christian for a long time, so I've actually read this book many times. But I just love when you get to read something like that over again and it has a new life. [01:03:00] Speaker A: Yeah, that's awesome. Well guys, thank you so much for today and we'll talk to you soon. Well, again, we talked after we recorded the episode about how kind of all over the place that felt in the beginning and then as we reflected more, we thought, well, that's kind of how technology is these days, right? So hopefully that conversation touched on enough different facets of the greater conversation around technology and screen time and all of that, that we helped to give you some great advice and practical advice. As we always say, with anything like this, there is no one size fits all advice because everybody is different. And so hopefully that information was great for you and helpful for you in some way. And if it was, let us know. Give us some feedback. You can do that on Apple podcasts. You can do that on social media. You can do that through the podcast response form on our website. So do make sure to let us know if you have never rated or reviewed our podcast on Apple Podcast. It is super helpful for helping us be discovered in the parenting charts on Apple Podcasts. I was about to say itunes because I'm old, but on Apple Podcasts, in the parenting charts, it helps us to become more visible to other families that might be wanting similar content. So please make sure you do leave us a review and a rating. Make sure it's five stars. Come on guys, what are we doing here? This is a five star podcast and if it's not, let us know and we will fix it. So it is a five star podcast. That is all I've got for today. For Mo and Tana Ottinger, for our whole entire team at Etc. For Kyle Wright, who Edison engineers all of our audio, and for Tad Jewett, the creator of the music behind the Empowered to Connect podcast. I'm JD. Wilson and we'll see you next week on the Empowered to Connect Podcast. Sam.