[E246] You're Not the Hero of Their Story, & That's the Point: A Conversation about Open Adoption with Annie Iverson

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. To the Empowered to Connect podcast where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families and our communities. Hello, everyone. I am here with Annie Iverson and she is a new friend to etc. We're so excited to have you today, Annie. [00:00:27] Speaker B: Oh, thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. [00:00:30] Speaker A: Well, why don't you introduce yourself to us, tell us a little bit about who you are and kind of how you connect with the etc Audience. [00:00:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So like I said, my name's Annie. I'm in North Carolina. I have four kids. I've adopted two, my oldest and my youngest. And they keep me busy. All four of my kids, I'm driving around all the time. [00:00:57] Speaker A: That's right. [00:00:57] Speaker B: My, my oldest one's. She just got her license two days ago. So I think my world will change a little bit, which is nice. But I have Learned over the 17 years a lot about adoption and a lot about open adoption, and I've learned a lot throughout these years. So I'm excited to share those with you. What I've learned, what I've learned and what I, yeah. Have experienced in the last 17 years. [00:01:26] Speaker A: Wonderful. And yes, as Annie mentioned, I really wanted to talk to her today about her experiences with open adoption and kind of what she's done in her experience to cultivate relationships with biological family through the ages and years as she's been parenting. So let's kind of start with basics. Really quick to loop everybody in, get our audience on the same page. When we talk about open adoption, when we talk about relationship with biological family, what are we really talking about? [00:02:02] Speaker B: Well, first I want to start out by saying not everyone is. Doesn't have an open adoption. Sometimes it has to be closed for situations or to protect the kids or, you know, there might be some situations where openness can. And so I want to honor those and know that there are situations, I have lots of friends where it can't be opened or it won't ever be. But this is specifically for those that have that option of having it open and how to cultivate that and how to really keep that connection going with their birth moms. So I just wanted to throw that out there that I realize not everyone [00:02:41] Speaker A: has this opportunity that's worth mentioning, you know, and as Annie's, as Annie's alluding to, you know, a closed adoption would be a situation where the biological family has said that they do not want any kind of communication between the adoptive family and the biological family. And there are certain types of semi Open adoptions as well, too. So kind of tell us what it means when we say there's an open adoption or people have a relationship with biological family. What does that mean? What does that not mean? [00:03:16] Speaker B: Yeah. So really, when I went into adoption, I didn't know a lot about it. Right. I thought open adoption meant I invite the birth mom over to family parties and birthdays and we go to dinner together. I kind of thought that was what open adoption is, but it's not. There's a big range. There are some that do have that openness of where they come. I have a great friend that they have the birth mom come to family dinners, but it's not all like that. I don't have that. There's a big spectrum. So openness means that you have some type of connection. It's honestly like, I have a saying, let's see if I can pull that up. Openness is really about connection and honesty. So it's really about having that connection with the birth mom. And even if it's a little bit of connection, it can be just talking about the birth mom. It can just show pictures of the birth mom or birth dad or birth grandparents. It can just be validating their experience and where they came from. That's openness. Talking about it. That's openness. And so there really is this big range of openness. Sending a card, sending a text, sending just one thing a couple times a year. That's still openness. The doors open a little bit. So hopefully that answers that question. [00:04:38] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think that is helpful. Let's kind of continue down this road. Tell me a little bit about some maybe misconceptions or myths that might exist about opening adoption and having a relationship with biological family, even within fostering situations. [00:04:58] Speaker B: Yeah. And going back to the openness, I wanted to just. I. I want to put this in. When my youngest is 8, she's 8 years old, and she has this amazing talent with music. And, you know, it doesn't come from me. It doesn't come from my husband. And she has this ability to hear music and she plays the piano. And her biological dad is a singer. He's a performer, and he raps. And she has that inkling of, like, where she got that from. She has that, like, I got that from my birth dad, and he gave that to me. And so that to me is like a feeling of she has that openness and she has that ability to know where that she got that talent from. And I feel like I just wanted to throw that in as an example of how she feels connected to her birth family. And that's a perfect example of filling that openness. [00:05:55] Speaker A: Well, that can be really valuable. I mean, I think I've shared on our podcast before, but I'm a mom through international adoption, and a lot of times what that means is that there are. There might be some missing pieces in information or in the ways that my kids are provided with any kind of piece of their past. And so whenever that's possible, to be able to fill in those blanks, it's such a gift. But I know that there are missing pieces. You know, it's like, where did this come from? Or why do I like this? And that question mark, it lingers with a person. Especially, you know, my kids are 16 and 12 right now. So that those years of identity formation, just watching as they are discovering who they are, I can imagine what a gift it would be to be able to fill in some of those question marks with, hey, this was actually, you know, this is connected to something in you biologically. And I'm even thinking about biologically, biological family members being honored in that way, too, that, you know, we. I'm kind of a little famous around here for saying nobody's ever just one thing that. That we can honor the things that have. That we bring with us from our biological families and from our origins and from our roots that have made us who we are in great ways. That it's not just a story of. It can also be a story of what has been gained and what continues to be carried. That's so beautiful. [00:07:30] Speaker B: I love. Yes, beautiful. Yeah. And she's so proud of it. And I love what you just said. It's like a way to honor, you know, it's just. It's. That's great. So going back to what you asked, some misconceptions about open adoption, and sometimes, you know, what people think about open adoption. And I have three main ones that I think that people might think that aren't true. One is that it means it's co parenting. That open adoption means that the birth mom is like a co parent and can tell you how to parent. But that's not the case at all. You're the parent. And so sometimes people are afraid that, you know, they might be doing the wrong thing or saying the wrong thing or raising the child, you know, but it's not co parenting. Another misconception is it's all or nothing. Like, it has to be no contact or all the contact. There's no in between. But that's definitely A misconception as well, because there's so much in between. And then openness is for the birth mom, but really it's for the child that's who benefits from having it being open. So I think those are the three main misconceptions of open adoption. [00:08:40] Speaker A: Oh, that's helpful to think about. And I'm even just thinking. I remember when we were in the early stages of pursuing adoption and making choices and choosing programs and agencies, and our listeners may not know that before I worked for Empowered to Connect, I actually worked for an organization that had a grant that taught people about infant adoption. And so we would, as part of that training, teach about the different types of adoption, including open adoption. And I remember even just my exposure to that training through that grant taught me a lot because I think I had some of those misconceptions myself. And the one that continued for me was like, oh, it just sounds really complicated and messy and, you know, maybe emotional. And I think as I've gotten further into my parenthood journey, I think parenthood is complicated and chaotic and emotional and messy. So I'm maybe a little more comfortable with the idea of, oh, that's just a piece of the pie that is parenthood. [00:09:57] Speaker B: Yes, for sure. And when I adopted my first, like I said, I went in and I didn't really know much about it, and it was really unfortunate because I didn't know what questions to ask. I wish I would have had more. You don't know what you don't know right at the time. And it was a long time ago. And, um. But it was a closed adoption for three years, and we thought the birth mom wanted it closed. And so three years after, when our little girl was three, we got a call from the agency, and the agency said, your birth mom wants contact. And we just thought, yes, that's so great. Like, by then we'd, like, known how important it would be to have that open adoption. Anyway, so getting to know our birth mom, her mom, her birth mom, she thought we wanted it closed, and we thought she wanted it closed. And there was some type of, you know, miscommunication along the way. And I was just devastated because not only did I miss three years, she placed another baby. And I thought, oh, I. I missed that opportunity to tell her I would love. But I had had a biological child and she thought I was too busy of two babies, but, you know, she wanted to open. And so when I adopted again, I thought, I know what questions to ask now. I know I want to say, what do you think open adoption means and how do you see this in the future? And I knew that I wanted to do things differently and keep that door open so that we had that openness with the next one. [00:11:29] Speaker A: I love that, you know, we have a wide range in our audience. A lot of adoptive and foster parents, but also professionals, also adult adoptees, also biological families and birth moms and birth dads that listen and kinship adoption families. So hearing kind of the way that this evolved for you and your family is, I think, maybe really encouraging to know that the birth mom, in your experience got to change her mind and was empowered to do that. And how revealing that both of you were kind of making some misassumptions about the other. And I wonder, you know, what has it looked like to keep contact with her as you were kind of finding your way? You said you knew what questions to ask when that finally came about. And so how did you know what questions to ask and what were the things that you wanted to know to keep that connection alive for your child? [00:12:34] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I definitely knew what questions asked for my second adoption because I learned a lot from the first one. So going into the second one, I'm like, okay, I got my list of questions and I was more bold to ask. I think when I first adopted, I wasn't as, you know, bold or I was nervous. I didn't know what to expect. And. But, you know, I learned to just be honest. Right. And that's been so nice. And we've always talked about adoption with our girls, with our whole family. They have darker skin than us, so of course it's obvious that they were adopted. And so one thing we've done is just always talked about it, no matter what. We talk about their story, we talk about their birth moms, we have pictures of them in our house. It's just something that's in our daily. The thing we talk about one of our girls, birth grandma and grandpa. Their house. Their house burned down with the fires in Pasadena. And so we talked about her all the. Or talked about them all the time because we were so worried their house burned down. So it was just kind of. We incorporate. That's the biggest thing, probably, is incorporating just talking about it. So I think that's the biggest. [00:13:50] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. And just the normalization of that in your family culture, when you tell me a little bit more about what you mean by you've learned to just be honest, what does that mean to you? [00:14:02] Speaker B: I think that comes as age, with. As you get older, too. It's like, time. I just got to get to the point. We got to get this figured out. But, you know, like, with boundaries, so I talk a lot about with boundaries, and I. I love being honest with boundaries, because I feel like I have a couple notes on where we talk about that. So I. I feel like with boundaries, it's. It's what can I offer and, you know, and what I need in return for this relationship to work and to be healthy. And so if I present it like that, then they see, okay, let's be honest here. Let's, like, talk about where we want to be and keep those boundaries so that everybody in this situation is going to be happy. And I realized that boundaries change over time. But we have a perfect example of this. When I adopted our second she. We were two. She was two years old, and we were in the same area as her birth mom. And I called her and I said, hey, we're going to be in your city. Would you like to meet up? And she said, yes, yes, yes. And then the day of, she kind of just ghosted us and didn't write back. And we're like, oh, no. And an hour before, she texted and said, I'm not ready. And I said, that's okay. I could have been really mad. I could have been upset. Like, we changed our whole day for you. This whole trip, we revolved around meeting you, but I respected it. You know, it set up that boundary like, she wasn't ready. That's okay. And that was honesty on her part. And I said, thank you for telling me. Thank you for being honest and saying that you weren't ready. And, you know, it helped build that relationship of honesty. And I think that's key, which is nice. [00:15:44] Speaker A: I really like how you're revealing that. For you, honesty has meant kind of discovering what needed to matter, what you value, what you valued, what your expectations were, what your boundaries needed to be, to respect everyone. And then there was the communication piece of that, being able to express that in directness, which can be really hard sometimes, especially if, you know, if you're building relationship with someone. So thank you for kind of explaining that a little bit more. [00:16:18] Speaker B: Yes. [00:16:19] Speaker A: You talked just a few minutes ago about kind of the idea of keeping the child at the center of this connection. And I want to know what does that look like when you're talking about keeping the child at the center of an open adoption? [00:16:33] Speaker B: Yeah. So I have such a great example of this with my oldest. My daughter. She. Her feet were growing and growing and growing, and she was so worried about her feet getting to be size 14, you know, and I think they were like size 7 at the time. And she's like, they're just growing too fast. And so, you know, I said, well, just text your birth mom and ask her how big her feet are. And so she without hesitation grabbed my phone, texted her, found out her feet were 9.5, like nine and a half. And she just went a few like, okay, my feet won't, I'm probably going to be around nine or nine and a half. And sure enough, she is, she has nine and a half. So I thought that's such an example of being able to. That was a center focus. Like her birth mom was the only one that could answer that. It was focused on her needing a question answered. And she was able to do that. Right. Because that door was open and it's just a small thing, but that impacted her immensely. So to keep the child like that's the focus is keeping the, you know, your daughter, your son, what will help them. Right? So I think that's what. [00:17:54] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. And I think there's that idea that you're helping them today, but you're also trying to respect and leave space for who they're going to become. So can you speak to that a little bit? [00:18:07] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think that the decisions you make today are not just for the 4 year old or the 5 year old or even the, you know, 15 year old. It's for, you know, my daughter who is almost 17, who's thinking about how big her feet are and who, who she is as a person. And also for the 25 year old that is thinking about, you know, marrying someone and, or dating someone and what background are they going to share with that person. Or a 30 year old who's going to have a baby that needs to know what their medical history might be. So it's, you know, realizing it's for the future of them, the older version of them, not just for who they are right now, which I think sometimes we think that because we're in the now and we don't see that ahead of time, like going ahead. [00:18:57] Speaker A: That happens so often. I think there were experiences that I remember my husband and I having before our child was even placed in our home that we had to make decisions about what we would tell other people about that child and about what we knew about that, that child. And I remember thinking, you know, this kid doesn't, doesn't speak yet. You know, she was an infant at the time. Both of our daughters, when they when they were placed with us. But one day she'll be 16 or one day she'll be 12 and she'll have opinions about what I shared. And the same way it goes the other way, they're the information. They may not want it as a one year old or as a five year old, but they may want that as a 20 year old. So I love thinking about that. Just long term for a person. Even some of those things you're sharing just from the standpoint of international adoption, I'm like, oh man. Yes. Like these are the questions that we ask and just leave open ended in our family because we do not know the answers. [00:20:05] Speaker B: Yeah. And I love that you shared that. And also to respect them and not divulge information to other people because that's their story too and they need to be able to say it when they're ready. Not, you know, me as a parent telling everyone their story. [00:20:18] Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. [00:20:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:21] Speaker A: Well, I know it can't be all pros, right? What are some of the hard parts that maybe you've struggled with when you have approached open adoption through these years? [00:20:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. There are some for sure. It's you know, being, being busy and you know, I have four kids and so it's really hard to stay consistent and keeping that relationship. And with any relationship you have to put in work to keep the relationship going. And it can be hard. It can be hard. Time will pass. I'm like, oh no, I haven't reached out or I haven't sent a text or I haven't done anything for months. And it's truly me making sure that I stay consistent. And I've figured out, okay, so there's a couple things that I feel like life gets busy. You're not sure what to say. Sometimes you pick up your phone and you're like I want to send a text. You're like, I don't know what to say. Maybe it's been a while. So then it feels really awkward because you're like I haven't reached out and then it's going to be weird. So that could be it. Or maybe it's one sided. That could also be like when you don't get a response back then you're worried like, oh, did I say something that offended her? Or you know, those are all really hard things that can happen that you're maybe reasons why you don't say, you know, consistent or keep that relationship going. But I have a couple things I've learned throughout these years that have helped me I love it. Share them. [00:21:49] Speaker A: So we're ready. [00:21:50] Speaker B: Couple things. I do the four times a year rhythm. So no matter what, have it on my calendar. I do birthdays. I do Christmas or winter holiday. I do birth mother day or Mother's Day, and I do, like, a random one throughout the year. No matter what. That's what I do. So at least four times a year, I'm making sure that I'm putting in that effort and making a connection. And then I do different milestones as well. Like, I. I think about it, when my daughter was performing on stage, she looks so beautiful. And so I'm like, I have to send this. Like, those shiny moments of when your child's just doing what they love. And so I always am reminded, okay, I love this. So I'm sure the birth mom would love to see this as well. And even the simple moments of, like, just my daughter sitting on the couch reading, and she just looks beautiful, and I'll just send that. So I always try and think of those times where it stops me in my tracks. Those are the moments where I'm like, okay, my birth. Her birth mom would love to see this moment as well. And that always helps me. And then I do. I do think sometimes where I'm like, that picture's not perfect or maybe her hair's not right or something. And I'm like, I better not send it. But I'm like, no, don't worry about it. A blurry photo or her hair's not done is better than nothing sent. So I always just remind myself that something is better than nothing. So I keep that in mind. And then the other thing is the not knowing what to say. I decided after my first one, my little girl was. Was probably at the time four or five, and I would text her birth mom, like, on her birthday, funny things that she was into, funny things she might be saying, favorite movies, things like that. And then I'm like, what if every year she has a card that she fills out, help me stay consistent. It gets to know her a little bit more. And we send that card to the birth mom. And that's where I decided to create the cards that connect. So it's just ways you can have your child involved. They can answer the questions and then send it to their birth mom. And it's fun questions. It's like, what stuffed animal do you sleep at night do? What do you want to be when you're, you know, an adult and getting to know you questions. Not just like, oh, their favorite color is blue, but More like what if questions. So I created these cards to help me stay consistent. So every year on their birthday, they fill out these cards and send them to their birth mom and birth grandmas and even their other grandmas and grandpas, because that's a way to keep that connection. And the birth moms and the birth grandmas love them because they get a little insight of what's going on in their brains at the age that they're at. And so that's another way that's really helped me to stay consistent. [00:24:45] Speaker A: Okay. I absolutely love this. It's making me think of, I've got to give credit where credit's due. Lazy genius, if you've ever heard of her. She has this idea that you think about it once instead of thinking about it every time it comes around, think about it once. And then you've created kind of this system. You thought about it once, like, what are some creative ways to get to know who this kid is right now at this age? And. And then have kind of set that out, which is a wonderful way to do that. I. I bet it is. I bet it's so fun to receive. And I especially. My favorite thing about it is that you make the child a part of, too. You know, again, keeping the kid at the center. That child is having agency over what they're sharing with their birth family. And that's special that that's also giving that child a voice of like, here's what I want my birth mom to know or my biological family to know. That's so special. [00:25:51] Speaker B: 100%. It is so fun to watch them. I mean, of course, when they're 1 and 2 and 3, they can't write. And you just kind of fill in the card for us. But as they get older, the things that they write down, I'm like, what? [00:26:06] Speaker A: Shocked. [00:26:06] Speaker B: I'm like, that is what you're thinking about. Like, that's what you're. What. That's what you're. You were dreaming about last night because one of the questions was that. And so just. Even as a mom, just to hear the answers are so fun. But it does. It gives them that voice and what they choose to share. And it's been really impactful. And birth moms love them. And it's great for. Because it's a little bit. But it's a lot. You know, one card a year just to have that information is a lot, but it's only a little bit, you know, as far as the connection, but it means a lot. It's very impactful. [00:26:41] Speaker A: I love that these are not, you know, you're not making a documentary. I'm, I'm saying this because the first year that my child, you know, on her, her first birthday, we celebrated with her, I made like a two hour video that we all watched at her birthday party. You know, it wasn't two hours, but it was quite long. And I think I was able to keep that up for two years. And my youngest daughter has zero. I think maybe she has a five minute one that I tried to make for her first birthday, but it's. It was impossible to sustain that. Now my kids pull those out and they love to watch them, but it's, it was not sustainable for me as a parent. So I love that you've chosen these little things that keep that connection alive and that keep the things that really allow someone to know your child kind of at the forefront. Even just those examples of like, hey, I take this picture and I send it when I am thinking about my child. Just the way that you've been able to keep the biological family with you, like you're alone aligning with them. You just are keeping them with you almost in spirit as you're noticing that child throughout their growing up. I think that's so special. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And I hope my girls recognize that I'm doing that, you know, so that they realize that I've done as much as I can to keep them involved and to have that connection, because I've seen it with my older one and the fact that she can just pick up and text her birth mom and she was able to connect with her biological sister and do a FaceTime and the emotions from that and just seeing that firsthand, she's living her story. She gets to see it in real time. And seeing that, I just see the importance of it. So if it's possible for anyone to. If you haven't text your birth mom or reached out, go for it. No need to apologize, no need to say anything, just, hey, life's been full. This is what we did today. Like, no reason to like, feel the guilt and like, oh, I haven't done it. Just go for it. [00:28:59] Speaker A: I know that. I know that this is something that parents can, can take intentional steps to set up for themselves, but I also know that you have made these available for other parents to be able to use. So tell us a little bit more about that. [00:29:15] Speaker B: The actual card. Yes, that. Okay, so, yes, I have the physical cards. I made 18, so there's one for each birthday. And the questions go like age appropriate. And so they get more mature as the cards go on. And then there's an envelope and you can just fill it out and then put it in the envelope and mail it to the birth mom. Or you can do it digitally. You can go online and you can fill out the cards online and then you can just download it and then email it it to anyone. You can email it to birth mom, birth dad. Like I said, they send to their grandmas and grandpas, like they love it. You can keep a copy. And then I even made it into a book so you could put. I put all the cards in a book because I'm like, well, I want one for myself and then I can give it to my child when they turn 18 because their answers are just so fun anyway. So, yeah, they're online to, to fill out, so it's easy that way as well. So two options. Yeah. [00:30:11] Speaker A: Well, listeners, if, if you're like me and you're like, oh my goodness, I love Annie for creating this and saving me time from creating it. We'll provide information in our show notes of how you can get, how you get. Can get your hands on some of those. Perfect. [00:30:29] Speaker B: I also have a, a placement. So it's a free guide on how to keep the connection after placement. And so there. That's also on my website. And then I also have other cards too. Like I've got 35 plus cards. So it's not just birthdays, it's holidays. But they're all prompted so that you don't have that. Like I'm looking at a blank page and don't know what to say. All of them are prompted so that you know how to answer, you know how to fill out and know what to say to your birth mom. [00:31:01] Speaker A: It's fabulous. And I just applaud you for you created something that you needed and are making it available to others. That's a lot of the resources that we have at Empowered to Connect Connect are actually born from the same thing. It's something that we want to use with our own families or we needed for ourselves and then we provide it for other people. So, yeah, I love that it's kind of born from the same vision there. So thank you for that, like, amazing idea and for then making it possible for other people to use that. That's so great. [00:31:37] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. And I did give a coupon code for our promo code for your listeners as well. [00:31:44] Speaker A: Yes, we'll put that in the show notes. If you use the code Connect20, then Annie is providing 20% off. So that's so generous, and thank you so much. Well, I want to talk through just a couple of other things before we wrap up. And one is just, I love how you've made this simple, sustainable, easy, and especially that rhythm is like, it. You can kind of create this ritual or routine around staying in touch, which is wonderful. I want to know, like, what do you find that is maybe the. The hardest part of trying to keep that going? What are some walls that maybe or obstacles that you find families might have? [00:32:31] Speaker B: I think maybe fear. I think fear of not knowing what to say, fear of the birth mom judging you. Like, I. I feel like I might be getting judged. So it's like, I don't know what to do or say or. So I think it's a lot of fear is what stops us. But, you know, I think by doing what I suggested, it will help alleviate that. It'll help you keep going. It'll help you stay consistent. [00:33:02] Speaker A: It. [00:33:02] Speaker B: We have to get fear out of the way. [00:33:04] Speaker A: Any hands go, how did you put it aside? How did. What. What in you or what in your experience kind of encouraged you to push through that, that fear and do something instead? [00:33:16] Speaker B: I look at my little girl, and now she's big. Both of them are big. They're not babies anymore. And I think it's for them, like, truly, get out of my, like, feeling uncomfortable because, you know, it's uncomfortable sometimes and I just have to, like, be uncomfortable. But it's for them because I want them to have that door open so that they know where they belong or where. Where they're from and have that sense of identity. I want them to have that. And so, truly, it's just me getting out of the way and looking at them and realizing, like, okay, this is for them. I can do hard things and I can keep that connection going even when it's hard, even if it's awkward, even when things might happen, you know, it's like, keep going. [00:34:05] Speaker A: What do you want to say to a family that maybe has access to an open adoption, but maybe they don't have regular contact right now, or that contact has faded for some reason or another? How can they still honor that connection to their child? [00:34:19] Speaker B: Well, definitely. Okay, there's a couple things. Talk about their story all the time, like, bring in pictures and, you know, you can make books about their adoption story. Talk about it all the time. Be proud of it. Let them be proud of it. Don't let them feel shame that they were adopted or anything or about their birth families. Be proud of that and celebrate that and also, like I said, keep photos. And then one thing I've done that people might think I'm crazy, but I. I screenshot all the texts, the chains, the text chain that I have with their birth moms. And I'll screenshot them and put them in a folder because I think one day maybe they'll want to go back and read those text chains because there's some good stuff in those text chains that we've talked about, and I would hate to not have that in the future. So I screenshot every single text chain that I've had with their birth mom. And I know that sounds crazy, but it's almost like a journal of their. What their doing in their lives and what they're just so much good information that maybe my daughter will want that one day, maybe not, but it's there if they want it. So I do that. And then I think if, you know, if times past, reach out to the agency, maybe they want to connect with, you know, get connection with the birth mom and they might be surprised to hear from you and maybe things have changed and they're ready or, or not. But you could always just try to get that open if it is closed. You just never know where anyone is in their life if fears have passed. So I think those are a few suggestions. [00:36:03] Speaker A: I love those ideas. Even as a mom who's 16 years into a closed adoption, an international adoption, some of those things I'm able to do and that we do in our family, we look at the pictures that we were given access to, we open up the files with the information and just being able to talk freely about those. And I would say if you're in my shoes, where you have not as much access to a biological family or information, the power of being able to wonder together is just the permission to wonder about it, to know I pretty regularly let my girls know that it does not hurt my feelings for them to wonder and for them to ask questions and for them to. To talk about their first family and to be able to honor that family in that way. If I were on the other side and it was. It was me that was the birth mom, I would want to be remembered. I would want to be honored. I would want to be brought through that child's life as a meaningful part of, of that person. And so being able to do that is just. Can be really beautiful. I was thinking as you were talking about, like, I don't know how people will perceive me screenshotting these texts. I think I just, just hear the Wondering and the desire for more information, you know, in my own family. And think, what a gift to be able to say, like, I don't know if you want this, but I kept these. And even. Even when we were going in country, anyone that I could talk to who had been with my child in her early life, I would ask the most, like, I would just ask all kinds of questions. What was her favorite food to eat for the one week that you cared for her, you know, or just anything that I could ask people because I wanted to be able to give them information that made up part of who they were and part of their story. Anything I could pass along. So I love that. Those ideas. And again, that you're pulling in this permission for the circumstances to change, asking the agency. And I hope that if there are biological families listening, that they know that they can change their mind, that they know that they can go to the agency and ask questions and to ask for what's possible. I love that that has not even, you know, in your mind, it's not a threat to you and your authority as a parent or your role as. As a parent, but that it. It's providing something valuable and needed in your child's life. Yeah. [00:38:51] Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah. And. And like I said, I missed the first three years because I didn't ask, I didn't reach out. I. I didn't do the things. And I'm like, okay, I don't want to do that again. Right. And so. And I know that's not with every situation, but I did feel like I missed out on three years because I didn't. I wasn't proactive enough. [00:39:09] Speaker A: Sure. And. But I also hear in that, that it's never too late to. To do something different, you know? Yes. Yes, you can start now. Just start where you are. And so if. If there are people listening that do feel regret, like some of what you're mentioning, what would. What advice would you have for them? [00:39:28] Speaker B: Just go for it. Just try it. You know, go for it and just go for it. That's all I have to say. [00:39:36] Speaker A: Ask questions, move in, you know, you can offer. Yeah, I love that. Well, when you're. When your daughters are grown, what do you hope they say? What do you hope their perceptions are about the way that you handled open adoption? [00:39:54] Speaker B: Well, I hope they see how much I tried and that I cared. I hope they notice how much effort I put into it and really keeping the connection with their birth families. And I hope they are happy that I had them fill out a card every single Year and that they, you know, won't regret doing that and keeping that connection with their voice and that they'll be. They'll be proud of those and that connection. [00:40:26] Speaker A: I hope that for them, too. I can only. You know, I think adoption in foster care can be so complicated because there are so many people that are a part of that, that if we're truly doing our job well, we are making sure those people are honored and have a seat at the proverbial table, that they're able to be. They're able to be a part of our lives as much as possible. But I think there can be some fear around that for adoptive families, and different adults come to adoption for different reasons. Right. And so it can feel scary to maybe give up that, I don't know, role of honor as the one and only mom, you know, in the story, to be able to share that. That as we should with the people that deserve that seat at the table in our family. I love how you've done that, and it really seems like you've done it without threat to what it means for who you are as a mom or who you are as a person. I just want to applaud that. [00:41:41] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. Yeah. And to follow up with that, I have in all in my girls rooms, I have a picture of me and a picture of their birth mom, and we're right next to each other. And so that's in their room, and they see that. And again, I know I'm very fortunate because I get to do that and not everyone gets to, but I think I want them to know they have lots of people that love them a lot. [00:42:04] Speaker A: Yes. To be able to give up that false narrative that you are some type of hero in a story and to. And to honor all of the people that get to be part of your daughter's identity and story, what a gift to them. And I think it can only actually strengthen the connection that you have with them and their trust in you versus undermining it, which is maybe what some parents might be afraid of. So thank you for kind of highlighting that and showing us just a beautiful picture of what that can be. [00:42:39] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much. And thank you for all that you shared as well. So much good advice. Thank you. [00:42:45] Speaker A: You know, it's a complicated road to walk through those of us who. Who are walking the road of adoption or foster care or kinship care. But I just love, Annie, that you have reminded us that our kids deserve this and that we want to honor. We want to honor them and the stories that they are holding in their lifetime. And thank you for just dignifying everyone that is part of that story. [00:43:13] Speaker B: Oh, well, thank you so much. [00:43:15] Speaker A: It's been a treat to have you on with us today. And again, if you're interested in looking at any of the resources that Annie's created, we'll create some notes in our show, notes that you can head to to get in touch with her and what she has. [00:43:31] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you for having me. [00:43:39] Speaker A: We hope you enjoyed the episode. If you're interested in learning more, head to empoweredtoconnect.org for our library of resources. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at etc, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empowered to Connect podcast. In the meantime, let's hold on to hope together.