[E224] Replay From Trauma and Loss to Healing and Empowerment with Cam Lee Small

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Today we are replaying one of our favorite episodes from our friend Cam Lee Small. He is one of our favorite voices in adoptee circles and he's sharing a little bit in this episode about a book he had just released called the Adoptee's Journey from Trauma and Loss to Healing and Empowerment. He has so much wisdom to share about identity formation and that intersection of adoption, faith and mental health. And so we hope that you will joy rehearing what he has to share with us today. [00:00:39] Speaker B: We are here today with Cam Lee Small, and he's going to share with us a lot about both his life, but also about an exciting project he's been working on that is coming in June 2024. And so if you have missed our first conversation with Cam, he and I were talking off air before we recorded. It was a lot more tactical, kind of as a practical parenting advice episode. So I'll link that in the show notes below. It's it is a very help episode, but today will be a lot more both biographical and then talking through his upcoming book. And so, Cam, I mean, thank you, number one, for being here with us again. And then second, I would love for people who do not know your story or, or kind of how and why you got into the work that you're in today for you just to share a little about that and then we'll talk about the the book coming up. [00:01:25] Speaker C: JD it's awesome to be here. Returning GUEST I think I was back back in 2021, so it's been a couple years. So I appreciate you having me back on. [00:01:35] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:01:35] Speaker C: I come into this conversation as a Korean American adoptee. I currently serve as a mental health provider, a licensed professional clinical counselor. And a lot of the work that I do, it's a merging of my personal story, kind of walking through dimensions of adoptee consciousness and awareness about what is adoption, what does it mean for us, what are matured meanings and how do how do those meanings evolve over time? And then as you know, with my skill set, background and training in counseling psychology, really trying to help folks professionally normalize this process of mental health, that we don't have to be in crisis for it. And if we do happen to come into an intense season, it is okay to and appropriate, normal even to ask for help. So in terms of mental health, that's where I sort of enter into the conversation with adoptees, with parents, with allies, with service providers, colleagues, professionals in the community. That's really where I'm at right now currently. [00:02:44] Speaker B: Awesome. And your book coming out in June Talk, talk to us about what you can from the book and, and then I'd love to know the foundations of it. What was it that was burning inside of you that, that, that you had to get it out in book form and so why don't we start there? [00:03:03] Speaker C: One of the main motivations and desires and inspirations that I have for this particular book is to answer and address some questions that we have as members of a church community and maybe even folks that are wondering about what is faith and how does that even relate to mental health. And you know, there, there's a large portion of adoptees who were placed through some kind of local church involvement or a faith based organization. What does that mean for us? So this book is an extension of a dialogue that has been happening for decades, really just adoptees asking, can we talk about this? There are some operations and there are some decisions and people making decisions. There are a lot of these processes happening sometime behind the scenes that we don't have language for. So in my hope for this book is that we can give and present and co create that language together as part of the local church community. But even, just, even if you're, you feel distant from the church community or you don't feel like that resonates with you, that's okay too. It's really an invitation for us to get together as a community, as adoptees especially, and work through these layers together. And as we develop that content and the discussion, we can bring that to the people that we love and that we care about and even bring that into our advocacy. So this book is really for folks to kind of read through that and inspire folks to do that on their own terms in their specific context. [00:04:45] Speaker B: Would you say the book is written primarily toward adoptees or toward adoptive families or kind of. Is it a blend of both? [00:04:53] Speaker C: I love that question. It reminds me of the conversation I had with the editor, my editor, when we first kind of started this like two and a half years ago. It is written to adult adoptees and that's the primary kind of hope audience, community that I'm writing to. And then he mentioned, you can think of someone is going to look over the shoulder as an adult adoptee is reading. Someone who cares about adoptees, someone who's concerned and you know, they feel compelled to help and support and come alongside of us. It's also written so that someone looking over our shoulder can gain insight and inspiration too, and calls to action. Yeah, yeah. [00:05:37] Speaker B: When you're. What was, what was the hardest part of writing the book for you. [00:05:44] Speaker C: Chapters related to grief because I'm pulling from my personal story and I think there was a season when I was writing that portion and it's kind of it weaves throughout the entire book. But that specific chapter on grief, it's kind of thinking through all of my intake documents recalling my own reunion meetings and even just the current while I was writing it, the current sort of tension of not being able to meet with my birth family as I was trying to reconnect with them. We were traveling back and forth during that time. Yeah. Managing everything that comes up while I'm trying to write something helpful and useful and sincere for the reader. So it's really a mixture of being honest and open and vulnerable, transparent and professional and maintaining a practice of self care, even just spiritual, physical, emotional health during that time and throughout the whole book. But specifically during that time. [00:06:51] Speaker B: An easy line to find. Right? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For people. If you have not I'll I'll link this in the show notes. If you have not watched this Cam was interviewed by a CBS affiliate in his in his city area. Yeah. A local CBS affiliate. If people have not seen that, would you kind of share our struck in light of what the subject matter the book is your story of your earliest memories of getting off plane and everything when you were coming over. Will you kind of share that story, what you shared on the interview with CBS and kind of how that relates particularly to this content in the book? [00:07:34] Speaker C: I have a lot of appreciation and respect for Susan Littlefield, the journalist who invited me in and the way that we were able to have conversations leading up to the filming of that discussion and really trying to be as thoughtful as possible what feels comfortable to share, what would be helpful for this local community to hear as we're working through trying to raise awareness about adoptee foster related needs in the community. So the beginning of the interview really was her asking when you share your story, where do you usually begin? I talked about being born in Korea in the earlier on in my life I actually just introduced myself. You know when it related to adoption I was adopted from Korea and that was where my story began. And so what I was hearing in the interview was my hope that right like right now and currently and throughout my the last few years I've been trying to be intentional about really bringing that layer of Korea to life by saying I was born in Korea. I know it's a small thing and you know and maybe you know people out there that listening right now you've even shared that and didn't think too much of it, that's okay. But for me, the reason I, I, I begin with that is to acknowledge that there was a life I had that I was living before I was adopted, that I was a son before I was adopted. I had family, I had heritage, culture, ancestry. Yeah. And then working through the idea that I live there for three and a half years and I mean, you're a parent three and a half years. Yes. It goes by quick. And there's a lot that can happen in one morning that can be ups and downs. So three and a half years of that with two caregivers, my parents. Right. Often for me, was dismissed when I would just say, just all throughout my life I was adopted. And so even for me, that language almost limited me as a person, cognitively, as a kid from even just recognizing I have this part of my story that it's just so much that I could be knowing about and questions asking. So unpacking all of that in, in that interview leading up to mother's decision in anguish through to place me for adoption relinquishment and then being placed on an airplane and, you know, flown across the world, landing and being sort of placed into the arms of these, to me at that point, strangers, no language. Who are these people? What is going on here? And I think that can sometimes get eclipsed by the, you know, welcome home celebration Gotcha Day. And I'm not pointing fingers or shaming anyone who celebrates a Gotcha Day, but part of the experience, the lived experience of that child can sometimes get missed if there's a, too much, if there's too much of an emphasis on that celebration of coming home. Well, yeah, I, I had a home for three and a half years and you know, acknowledging that, so that was the, the, the bulk of the interview portion, you know, the two minutes. But our conversation was, you know, like an hour, two hours long. And again the, the pre, the front end leading up to that conversation. So thankful for that. And then afterwards being able to debrief and process with Susan. [00:11:05] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's powerful. Out again. We'll link it below. You should definitely watch it. One of the things that really stuck out to me and one of the things that I wanted to talk with you about today is, is just those, those early formations of identity and, and particularly in school and the environments that, that socially are, are beginning to shape your experience in the world and, and shape your beliefs of the world and all that, you know, I, I us. And again, I will say no shame. I'm not going to name agencies, but, like, when we were. We were going through the adoption process, totally going through, and sort of a hero's mindset and sort of this, like, you're doing a noble thing mindset. There's not very much emphasis at all on mindfulness, of early formation of identity and in environments. And so we were, I would say, like, providentially fortunate that where we were, bringing a child home to the community we're coming home to was a pretty vibrant, rich community that was. That was extremely diverse. And so the experiences for our son, who's African American, like, for him coming home to a city that's almost split totally, you know, black and white in the south, like, helps those experiences to not be so linear early on. But I wish that had been an intentional thing on our part. It was completely, again, I would not say luck. It was completely, you know, providential by God to. To allow that to. To happen for us. Will you talk for a minute? Especially, you know, personal experience, but also from a therapeutic experience, why those early formations of identity are so important and why mindfulness about that from parents is so important. [00:12:45] Speaker C: We are growing up. We're waking up each day and we're forming thoughts and we're cataloging our feelings and emotions and we are soaking in everything. So as a small child, yes, there is that process of attachment of when I put out a cue, this person helps me. Yeah. Really simple. The serve, return, call response that need expressed. Yeah. Yes. Now we're thinking through that term identity, which is. There are volumes to study on this. If I were to boil it down into, you know, that phrase of like, who am I? What do I have to work with and who do I want to become? We're thinking about as a child where I look different than my parents. Not just, oh, I have different hair color, but there is this skin, physical outward appearance that is different. And even when. When we're out in public, the sort of hypervisibility that I. I can't hide. It's not like I can kind of keep this secret or private. It's just happening something about the, The. The exposure to witnessing either. Or media or in person representations of this or literature, theater, music, whatever, people who look like me, what do they do? What can't they do? How are they treated? How do others feel about them or how they're treated? How do they feel about that? And we begin to develop. And because of our conversation here, we'll think about racial identity. And racial identity, we can go into a lot of jargon about It. But essentially it's the process of seeking out experiences with folks with this sort of like you can call it a shared consciousness, a shared memory, even a shared destiny. But that we share this lived experience, we're seeking out experiences of that. That's. I'm sorry, that's process. Content is the thoughts and feelings and the information available to me and to the people around me regarding this particular racial identity. Now we think about race is a system of power. And again, that's another training and additional training. But identity. At home with my adoptive parents, it looks like, how are they providing for me truth that can help me challenge lies. If I were to just boil it down. Yeah. And through that process, I learn about who am I, who am I associated with, to which communities am I responsible or can I look to to receive support? Who do I. We think about sense of belonging. [00:15:58] Speaker B: Past. [00:15:59] Speaker C: Present and future possibilities. That sense of identity, if I'm only receiving that from false balances like lies, like stereotypes, prejudice, bigotry, racism, if that's my only the pipeline of information, then it's going to be difficult. It's going to be a challenge. I guess we could say the cards might be stacked against us in terms of growing a sense of confidence that I am capable, I have the capacity to reflect the glory of God, to serve, to be served, to reflect and practice, demonstrate kindness and strengths, develop strengths and abilities and skills, and even just envisioning the future. If all I'm getting is, well, you all are kind of. You do this and that's pretty much it. You know, it's going to take either a supernatural kind of help, which I believe in, and practically though, it's going to take a really heavy dose of some intentional presence of people and intentional interaction with activities, immersion experiences, education, to really cultivate a sort of challenging of that status quo. [00:17:14] Speaker B: Yeah, talk about racial mirrors on Instagram, there's a reel where you talk about that and the importance of that. I think as parents are thinking about contemplating adoption and. And I would say as parents are thinking about parenting, period, those racial mirrors are important. Is there anything you'd like to speak to in terms of the thought process of setting your kids up for success in that particular way? [00:17:47] Speaker C: So we're thinking about racial mirrors. And maybe for some folks listening, you're kind of thinking about, oh my goodness, my child goes to a predominantly white school and, you know, the teachers are white and leadership authority figures. How am I going to present them or give them exposure to people of color or someone that shares their racial, ethnic you know, background and why is that important? So there's an idea. And I guess I get the part of this phrase I get from Angela Tucker, and that's fresh in my mind because I was just in a training that Angela is providing using this term outsourcing. But what I'm thinking through is it's okay for a white adoptive parent who's parenting in adoptive color. It's okay for a white adoptive parent to say that I don't have what it takes. I don't have enough to offer this child in terms of education about their history and celebrating different holidays related to their origin story. It's okay for them to acknowledge we might need some help with this. Okay. And there's no shame in that. In fact, there's favor to a sense of humility, humble. Right. And what, what I usually work with parents is we're thinking about, well, I guess one question, and this is, this is not to make, you know, parent feel bad, but if it's hard to think about, well, where I don't even, I'm not even in an area where I could make friends with someone of color. Well, we might want to hesitate before we're thinking about adoption. Bringing a child of color into that community, that's one thing. And again, no shame. This is a dialogue. The second idea is being in spaces where, I'm sorry, just a daily lifestyle routine, just our norm. What does that look like? You know, if I'm conducting an assessment with, with a family with, you know, quote unquote, prospective adoptive parents, walk me through your day to day life. You know, who are you having meals with, what kind of community gatherings are you a part of, you know, share about your, your experience at church, your friend group, your, the, the, the social activities. And if, again, like I, I said earlier, if it's really difficult, if you feel like you're going out of character, out of your way to be in spaces where you're, you're a child from either another country or another racial, ethnic background and it feels like you have to go like really out of your way to provide them with that? Well, then we reverse engineer. How do you make it so you wouldn't have to go out of your way? How would you make it so that it's just really natural? I step out my door and this is our story world. It's, you know, racial, ethnic, diversity. How does that happen? And if that can't happen, how are we being intentional about even inside our home? And this is not to say that just some pictures and books inside our home can account or compensate for relinquishment and transcultural, transnational international adoption and the losses and traumas associated with that can't compensate for that. But there is a racial ethnic scale provided by the Harvard Ethnic Racial Identity Laboratory that is led by Dr. Imani Taylor. And folks can look like, look that up online. It's free and it's not targeted for. It's not written for adoptees or adoptive families, but it just gives kind of like a checklist of like if a child was, was taking that assessment. My parents teach me about my racial ethnic history or I regularly attend activities or festivals or gatherings related to my racial ethnic background. We regularly play music or watch television or media representative of or produced by members of my racializing background. So I think there are decision points like that that a family can consider when we're trying to increase or again, you know, be intentional about pursuing racial ethnic supports for children who can't fully get that from their white adoptive parents. [00:22:28] Speaker B: Okay, so we're talking about lots of things related to trauma and loss. Obviously that comes with the adoption process. So your book, I want to go back to this. The title is from, you know, trauma and loss to empowerment to healing and Empowerment. So an Adoptee's Journey for this. So let's, let's talk about the Healing and empowerment piece. So for, for those who are hearing this, adoptees or adoptive parents or people who are like, this is just a lot to think through and a lot to through as a human. And there's a, there's a heaviness in there. There can be healing and empowerment to come out of each of our stories. Right. So will you talk about that, that part of your own journey and then how, how you hope for the book to accomplish that or, or start that process for your readers? [00:23:20] Speaker C: The title, it's a little tricky. It's, I guess, a little spoiler alert, kind of a bait and switch. It makes me think about someone going from loss and trauma and someone just really grappling with that. And then they're turning from the loss and trauma to healing and empowerment. It's as if we can go from one to the other from A, from point A to point B. My hope, and I know that there is some of that, if you think about physical wound, a cut in the skin, and sure, it can heal, there's healing there. My hope with the book, though, is to invite readers into that dialogue of. It's really about widening the scope of the lived experience of an adoptee. And I as an Adoptee, just from my own story, Cam went through a process of thinking, okay, well if I, unless I fully heal from grief and loss and start to feel complete and whole and content all day, every day, unless I have that, then I can't really claim that I'm in a process of healing and I can't really feel empowered. It's to help me get away from that sort of like all or nothing black and white thinking, that mental filter. But widening the scope, the widening the range of change for an adoptee means that yes, there are actually layers of grief and trauma that I'm going to be navigating lifelong. And that's part of the, the process. It's, it's kind of the rub. I can't control that. And while I recognize that and invite supporters and resources in my life to, to hold that, I can also, and you know, I can also be living in a state, a process of reoccurring regular moments of either incremental, maybe even milestones, significant experiences of personal revelation, insight about, about myself, about the world, about God even. And with that sort of like internal scope of awareness and revelation also increases my capacity to respond to the world coming at me. That you can, maybe you can call it sin from the outside, suffering from the outside, but the forces that plot against me, I can respond to that and still live in an empowered way. I can still make choices, I still have decision making capacity based on the revelations and the internal and interpersonal dialogue that I have in interactions. I can still live in a, in a meaningful, satisfying story arc. So from, from loss and trauma to healing and empowerment, you can count on that range, entire range, moving forward lifelong. And if we can accept that, then we can leverage that internally, individually for ourselves, but also outward, collectively for our neighbors, for our siblings, perhaps for the glory of God. If that's your faith background and just the flourishing of humanity, just basic common grace for ourselves and those around us. [00:26:36] Speaker B: Oh, I love that. [00:26:37] Speaker C: I love that, that. [00:26:38] Speaker B: And that feels, you know, it's a very therapist thing to say to talk about like, no, we're not eradicating the trauma and loss. We're working through that. And that's a part of our story forever. Right? And the healing and the empowerment can also be part of that story. And we kind of go from, it's the C.S. lewis side of like moment to moment, like moments of suffering, moments of glory, and, and to understand those things as, as part of the story, not separate from each other. Right. I love that. You know what, I guess you've answered a whole lot of questions of this. And I, and I, I have a thousand more that I want to ask, but I'll keep it to just a few. One of the things that we talk about here at Empower Connect all the time. You know, starting this work of trying to parent at all in a way that is, call it effective or helpful, whatever adjective you want to use in that situation, it, it doesn't start with kids. It starts with us. Right. And figuring out our own internal work. I wonder for adult opties who have yet to. Have, have yet to. To start their parenting journey, have yet to. To go into that world of parenting kids. I wonder if you, on the other side of it now, if you have some advice for adult adoptees that are working through their questions, their, their stories as they prepare to have families one day. [00:28:06] Speaker C: So there's an adult adoptee who is considering parenthood or they're kind of on a pathway to that. And how do I prepare for this? What do I, what kind of layers can I think through to walk this journey? Well, I think for me personally there's a. So just right, right now, as a parent, every day I fail at being a perfect parent. And that's just a really easy thing to say. Anyone can say that. But I think for me, the milestones that are parallel with ages that I navigated as an adoptee myself. So being in those types of seasons with my children, I, I didn't always. I wasn't fully prepared for some of the internal reflections and the reactions that I would have. Like, for example, when I'll just use my son as an example, like when he is, like when he turned 3. Well, that's the, the age I was when my dad died in Korea and I wanted, I'm celebrating with my family and him. I love him in a way that we can't put into words. And I just know during that week, during that season and on that day, there were some reflections in my mind and there, Some, some, Some grief that I'm holding now. I've gone through my personal work and I have support and resources. And of course, as a clinician, as a mental health provider, I'm biased. And I have, you know, preparations in mind to journal through that, to pray through that. Great. But for an adult adoptee sort of embarking on this journey, I think, you know, one of the recommendations and suggestions that I give in adult adoptee groups that I facilitate or even just other speaking engagements is to open up to that sense of community support. Are there folks in the community that you can reach out to. Are there books or articles that you can read that help normalize this process for you? And just even the expectation that there can be milestone moments, there can be seasons, circumstances and situations that can activate different questions or wonderings or feelings for you. And this is not to project, to say like, okay, every moment of your adopted journey, of your parenting journey has to mean something about adoption, but it's really just saying like, hey, there, there could be potentially, yeah, mixed dimension dimensions to intersect with your life as an adoptee and your journey, they intersect with your journey as a parent. So that's, you know, something that you could expect, but really, yeah, just a normalization meet with formally or informally with a, with a counselor or someone that you trust that you can bounce ideas off of while you're walking that path. So there's a lot more. And that's actually, I mean, in the, in my book, there's entire chapter dedicated to navigating relationships, community, emotions, kind of like the whole, the whole gamut. And again, it's not like the one size or it's not like the comprehensive guidebook to being an adoptee, but really there are some resources in there that can help an adult adoptee really sit with this conversation that you and I are talking about right now. [00:31:35] Speaker B: I imagine still it's the same conversation of being on a spectrum, right. Like that, that, that spectrum of, of loss and trauma, to healing, empowerment flows throughout each segment of our lives. Right. And so there's. There's gonna be easy moments, hard moments and yeah, last, last thought, last question there or a topic I want to talk with you about today is the intersection of faith and mental health and adoption. Um, and we could take two of those three in any combination and fill up an entire probably series of podcast. This is not to say we're going to cover the entire topic right now, but when it comes to those three layers, what are kind of your thoughts on the current state of. Whether it's what you're seeing in your practice, what you're seeing, trends in the Internet, in, in thought patterns related to faith, adoption and mental health, or, or where you would want for those things to go? What are your thoughts right now on the intersection of those three components? [00:32:36] Speaker C: I think faith can be a very beautiful, helpful, powerful practice. And I don't think faith should be used to prevent adoptees from exploring their stories or speaking their stories aloud in their families or in their communities. That's one of the main thrusts in the book. And I'm not the first person to kind of, you know, think through that or say that. But that's really when we're talking about these different intersections. It's an invitation for us to ask folks if that's you, if you feel like because people around you have had faith or even from your own faith, if you feel like there are questions that you'd like to explore but you feel guilty maybe, or just hesitant because I should love Jesus more, or if I loved Jesus, I wouldn't have to search for my birth family. You know, just if you feel any, any cinder of that even. Yeah. Then this book can be something to invite you into that conversation. To invite us into the conversation. Especially as I mentioned earlier, you know, an adoptive parent looking over the shoulder of an adult adoptee reading this book. If you're that adoptive parent, how has faith operated in your parent child relationship? And how has faith operated in your concept of adoption just in general? Yeah. And know having that conversation can, can be so fruitful and it can even yield a deeper connection, a genuine connection, even parent child relationship. [00:34:27] Speaker B: They give us the sales pitch from a therapist perspective for the, I would say the person who does have that block of, okay, but I've got faith that God can take care of all these issues I'm walking through. I don't, I don't have to go to some person who's not God to heal myself from these things. I don't need mental health care. I need the gospel. Like what, what would be your argument for mental health care as part of God's assistance to us as humanity? [00:35:02] Speaker C: Oh, amen to that. Well, I think of this idea of, you know, how, how wide, how long, you know, how deep is the love of God. We're thinking about untapped oceans of resource and love and empathy that exist inside of you, dear adopti. And if you are just burning to live out the gospel, would God use your curiosities as an adoptee to bless the world? I think so. And I'm not gonna, I would never discount that. Right. I'm not gonna rule that out. And it's just this idea that, wow, what, in what kinds of ways could I even just unlock strengths within me and insights and revelations not to make me a hero or a martyr or a savior, but just to even increase my sense of humanity. And again, I'm not going to say, hey, you should spend time, you know, grieve your story and cry and, you know, be this, you know, negative emotional person and nothing wrong to you if that resonates with you. But what we're just saying is that sort of exploration? I think, in a way. And now I got to be really careful here because I could end up sort of doing the same thing that I'm, in a way, encouraging people not to do. But if there is a way, even just two pictures here, the talent, okay, you've got this lived experience that could resonate with people around you and just a way to love them and serve them. Okay, great. But I don't want to pressure you to look into your adoption story if you don't want to. That's okay. You don't have to. And the second one is there is a seed, for example, that falls to the earth and is growing. And if there's a block or a boulder or some obstacle on top of someone as they're growing, it's possible that this sort of internal exploration of the adopted journey can help us carry that burden with a neighbor. I'm not saying it's completely necessary. I'm not saying it's going to save you. I'm not saying it's the person of Jesus Christ. I'm just saying that it's possible that our own internal consciousness, adopted consciousness, just, you know, about activism and the rallies of adoption, the. The increasing of that within us can potentially increase our capacity to increase the presence and the help and the refuge and the grace of God in another person's life relative to or associated with their adoptee journey. Okay, now we don't have to just. This is all I think about 247 adoptee. How can I be an activist? Right. All I'm asking is, are there ways for me to tap into and to access these oceans of grace in me related to the adoptive journey so that, yes, I can experience the grace myself, but also perhaps pour into another person's life in a way that brings refreshment and the fragrance of Christ here and now, this very moment. To my neighbor. Yeah. Gosh. [00:38:35] Speaker B: He is Cam Lee Small. His book is the Adoptee's Journey from Loss and Trauma to Healing and Empowerment, coming in June through InterVarsity Press. Cam, always a pleasure to be with you. Thank you for the work you're doing. Thank you for your time today and your vulnerability. And we can't wait to talk to you again soon. [00:38:52] Speaker C: Thanks for having me. J.D. [00:38:58] Speaker A: We hope you enjoyed the episode. If you're interested in learning more, head to empoweredtoconnect.org for our library of resources. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music on behalf of everyone at etc. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empowerment to Connect podcast. In the meantime, let's hold on to hope together.