[E217] Fawn: Stress Responses 101

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Hey guys, we hope your summer is off to a great start. We thought we would replay a few of our most popular episodes and in the spirit of the overviews we've been doing recently, we are going to rename this little mini series stress responses 101. You know, the summer and the transition into summer can be a really stressful time. There is a reason that they call it maysember or mayhem. And if you have experienced some of these stress responses, there is no shame. These things are hardwired into our brains and into our kiddos brains. So as you begin to recognize some of these behaviors that you are hearing about in these episodes, maybe you might want to go Back to episode 205 with our stress and trauma 101 episode. That will kind of let you know a little bit about what is causing stress responses or even what is causing our lower brains to be a little more sensitive in the area of kind of setting off these stress responses. We hope that in seeing and bringing awareness to some of these behaviors that then you can seek to co regulate either when you're recognizing them within yourself or within your kiddo. So without further ado, here is stress responses 101 foreign. [00:01:33] Speaker B: Today we are here to talk about the fawn response and we've got Stella Sinani from the Memphis Family Connection center and Becca McKay from ETC staff with us today. So I will say before we get started, I would love Stella for you to get to introduce yourself for those who don't know you who are listening today. And so obviously Becca has been on with us a lot and so Becca's a familiar voice here. But Stella, why don't you give, give, want, tell the people who you are and kind of your story of getting here to Memphis. [00:02:05] Speaker C: Yeah. So my name is Stella and I'm originally from Albania. I moved here for grad school in 2018, graduated and then I also completed my internships at Memphis Family Connection Center. I was hired there after my graduation and I've been working there for a couple of years and I'm really, really excited for where this is going professionally and on a personal level as well. [00:02:30] Speaker B: Awesome. And professionally, why don't you tell people kind of what you're, you know, what you practice and kind of your general work here? [00:02:37] Speaker C: Yeah, I work as a clinical therapist with children, adolescents and adults. I work mainly with children and also empowering parents with parenting skills and giving them some trauma informed interventions as well and how to cope with different behaviors that they see. So yeah, that's kind of like my area of work. [00:03:00] Speaker B: Great. That's great. Well, let's dive into today's topic because, you know, we've sort of, I think, touched this from afar when we've talked about this so far. But, you know, the stress responses, if you ask 10 people on the street what they are, you know, of the 10 who would know that phrase, they would say, oh, fight, flight or freeze. Right. And, you know, we know in recent years, we'll kind of get into this, that Fawn has kind of been added as a recognized stress response. And so we wanted to talk about that today because it is something that shows up a lot in this space that we talk about often in the adopt and foster world. And really, kids have experienced adversity or stress. And so we wanted to kind of COVID that today in a little more depth than normal. And so, Becca, for an overview, why don't we start by just kind of defining what the Fawn stress response is and kind of where it comes from? [00:03:52] Speaker D: Absolutely. So Pete Walker is a guy who is studying complex ptsd and he coined the term Fawn, and he has begun to kind of expand our understanding of the stress responses. We've talked every episode in this series about how it's an automatic response. It's a survival mechanism. It's these things. They're not conscious thoughts. They're just like things that ways that we react to different stressors. And so Fawn is an interesting one because how it presents itself is so different from the other three. So Fawn basically is going to look like people pleasing. What it really is at a deeper level is you're so scared to make someone else mad or to cause conflict or to do something that you feel is wrong that you are going to basically be a chameleon. So the people that you are around are going to dictate your thoughts, your wants, your needs. And so it's like you lose your access to even what you actually want, what you actually think. And all that you can do is just chameleon yourself in these different circumstances and everything that you think is determined by other people. So oftentimes in his work, Walker found it a lot with child abuse and neglect, and like we've talked about, with all of the stress responses, they can come from a number of different things. We all kind of can do all four at different times, but the Fawn one can kind of like overpower the other ones, and it can. You know, we don't necessarily fight for ourself or fly to keep ourselves safe. In Fawn, we really, really try to mirror somebody else so that we can be relationally safe, if that makes sense. [00:05:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Stella, would you kind of help us know what. What does this look like when we see it? So if we're noticing interesting behavior out of our kids, if we're noticing it in ourselves, how do we kind of identify this. This stress response? [00:05:47] Speaker C: I would say that the first thing that I notice personally is a hard time saying no to people and keeping boundaries with them because you're constantly trying to be attuned to the needs and the feelings of the other person so that you don't hurt them and you appease them. You're losing touch with. In your own feelings, and often you're not able to identify, what am I feeling in this specific situation? What are my thoughts are relating to something that is happening. So there's this loss of identity happening, which can be overwhelming because then you're, like, losing touch with your own self. And then also I think it's hard to place those boundaries because you're constantly thinking that you will disappoint these people around you. Instead of actually voicing your own needs, you're having a hard time identifying your values and what you like. So overall, there's this. At the cost of your own needs, you are prioritizing the needs of another person. And that can be really hard and overwhelming. [00:06:53] Speaker B: I would imagine so. Yeah, like that. And, Becky, you touched on the fact that we all have moments where we experience fight, flight, freeze, or fall. And kind of individually, it doesn't have to be your. I'm using air quotes that have to be your stress response, but we do all experience moments of that. I want to speak to people who might be listening to this and kind of rolling their eyes and just saying, like, oh, God, come on. All this is is just not having a backbone as a person and not being able to be yourself and stand up for yourself. Like, this is easy stuff. Why don't we kind of remind people of this science, Becca, of a stress response? And so that we just are all on the same page that has an autonomic nervous system response. This is what comes. Do you want to speak to that before we move on into another part? [00:07:39] Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. So the sort of. The stress responses are in the lower part of your brain. And when your body is literally flooded with those stress hormones, it's not like you can just snap out of. Takes a lot of. I love how you said, Stella, you're attuning to the needs of other people when you're in the fawn response. And that's Happening really automatically. So what you're going to have to do over time is attuned to your own needs. And it's going to take a lot of intentionality and a lot of self awareness. Sometimes when we talk about self awareness, J.D. i think people think that it's like really passive or like really like frou frou wah wah. What does that mean? But awareness is so active. Being aware takes so much intention and takes so much energy. And so I think with the fawn response, it's just, it's going to be your default. That's what's going to happen because of your brain wiring and chemistry, it's going to be your default. And the only way to move out of that default is going to be that awareness, that intentionality, those conversations outside the moment. And when you start to move out of fawn, Stella, you said you might be afraid of making the other person mad. You might make the other person mad, and then that can flood your body with even more stress hormones that send you right back into it. So it takes time, it takes intentionality and, and you've got to find safe, healthy relationships to practice it in. [00:09:00] Speaker B: Thank you for that, Becca. So you know, what we've done with each of the different stress responses in the series is we have kind of talked about how do we, how can we support ourselves in the stress response. And so Stella, I'd love for you to share, you know, for anybody who has this response and they identify with this being their main stress response, how can we begin to support ourselves and recognize. Both recognize it, but also begin to help ourselves and take steps so that when we notice this coming on, we can be able to step into that. [00:09:33] Speaker C: Well, yeah, as Becca said, I think it takes a lot of self awareness and the same tools that we are using to attune to another person can be used towards ourselves. It just takes time because our brain has been trained to do that outwardly and not inwardly. I think the first thing is to be able to identify what we are feeling. And feeling shards can be helpful for that. Because when you don't have the words to describe your emotions, sometimes you need something visual, something outside of you to help you be able to become more aware. And then also asking yourself, am I responding in order to please the other person or am I honoring my needs right now? Can I identify what those needs are? So questions that can help us discern what this action, where this action is coming from, what is the purpose behind it? To open up some new ways of responding and then honestly, I Think what happens with people who have experienced or who have the phone response as a stress response is that they have not been validated for such a long time either by like parents or a caregiver or a significant other person in their lives. And sometimes we are seeking the validation from this other person instead of extending that validation towards ourselves. So, so coming up with self affirmations, coming up with words that we can tell ourselves to build that self esteem up and understand that my worth is not dictated by another person's behaviors, actions, words, that worth comes from within and I can kind of like reflect and find that back and be rooted instead of just wondering in what other people are thinking about me. [00:11:22] Speaker B: That's so good. Thank you for that. I think the natural kind of next step is to think, okay, well that's how I would handle this for myself. But I've got a 6 year old, I've got a 10 year old, I've got a 14 year old that deals with this same thing. How can I support our kids? So Becca, how do we begin to support our kids in this when they're in this place? Because I would just hand up, I would say there are probably times when a weary parent feels like, I wish my kids would have a fond response and just do what I asked them to do to people, please. Like. And so I say that kind of tongue in cheek because I say it's funny to say that, but there are times when just as a parent, you are, you are just tired and so it might be hard to identify this because you might just be glad that a kid complies and does what you're asking. So how do we begin to like notice this our kids and support them in it? [00:12:14] Speaker D: I think the fawn response, it's so funny that you said that JD because it is, it's often comes out in compliance and in over helpfulness and in kindness and there's a lot of like really beautiful character qualities that can like actually be coming from a place of stress. And so I think for parents, you know, first of all, we say it all the time, but like there's no perfect parent and you can't perfectly attune to the needs of your kids all the time. So good enough is good enough, right? So we want to be good enough. We want to, you know, pay enough attention, you know, get to know our kids and all of those things. So first of all, you're not going to be perfect. But as you begin to pay attention, I think think about your family culture. Like are you building A family culture where it's okay to say no sometimes. Are you building a family culture where sacrificial love is a really beautiful form of love, but is that the only kind of love that we're teaching? Are we only teaching that we have to sacrifice ourselves and that our needs and wants don't matter? And if we're focusing on that to an extreme level, we could actually be cultivating a fawn response unintentionally because we do want to be kind and helpful and sacrificial. But to your point, point, Stella, not to like the loss of our own identity and not in a way that dishonors our own needs. So think about the kind of family that you're cultivating and think about if you, if you notice a kiddo who is super easily, maybe, maybe their feelings get hurt really easily. You know, I, I was a really sensitive little, little person and I cried all the time and I would be really up. You know, I was like the. If other. Other people needed a bigger consequence, they just had to say rebecca in a strong voice and I would burst into a puddle of tears. So if you've got a kiddo like that, pay attention to their behaviors. Are they doing extra things because they want to or because they're trying to please you a little, like over the top? Are they? And again, it's really tricky line because there's a lot of these behaviors that are really good behaviors, but we do want to like, just honor and validate. Is that kid able to use their voice? If you ask that kid, where do you want to eat for your birthday, can they answer your question or do they have a hard time even with like a simple what do you want to eat? For a kid who's exhibiting a fawn response, it's going to be really hard for them to ever say what they want or need because they don't necessarily know. They're just so used to mirroring the people around them. So pay attention. Start to give choices and options and ask questions to give voice. We talk a lot at etc about giving voice. And I think it's harder to think about with fawn because you're like, well, I ask them all the time what they want and they just don't care. And so it's like, how do you scaffold that skill? How do you help them get confident enough? And it might take a lot of time and you're going to have to build a lot of felt safety. Kids need to know that they're safe and loved regardless of their Performance or what they're doing now. [00:15:18] Speaker C: Becca, to add something to what you said, which I love, I think when I think of ETC principles, we use compromises a lot in helping children finding actually we use compromises in order to help children in the fight response more kind of like, okay, you want this and it's too much right now. So as a parent or caregiver or therapist, I need to meet you somewhere in the middle, right? So I feel like we can use that same principle with children who struggle to find their voice because we can allow them to do what they do best best, be attuned to our needs while helping them attune to their needs. Okay, so what is something that you want? I can tell you what I need and we can come up with a compromise that works best for both of us. [00:16:00] Speaker D: So I feel like that could be. [00:16:01] Speaker C: A good first step towards that. [00:16:04] Speaker B: That's really good. I think of the importance of being able to identify these things and just help to like. Like you were talking about scaffolding or building it on ramp, so to speak, into identifying your own needs and being able to take care of them, supply them. You know, it's easy to lose picture of the big picture of parenting, which is at some point, the goal that we're trying to get to is that our kids are able to thrive the best they can in the world. And so obviously that looks different for every different child. But one of the dangers in not supporting our kids in the faun response is building up lots of bitterness toward ourselves. And so if we're not recognizing all these times where we are being catered to over and over and over again, it does begin to harbor some resentment and some bitterness that can build up. And so, you know, it might feel weird to stop a child who is offering to do something for us or offering to clean something or to pick something up or whatever and just to check their heart. But what you are actually doing is helping to free them a lot of times, a lot of instances to be able to share where they are actually at. Because none of us who are listening to this right now, like none of us ever want our kids to be buck to feel internal affair, buckling under the pressure of life. And that's where that fawn response can really do some damage. Is the internal kind of people pleasing, needing to achieve things in order to feel loved kind of kind of thing. So I would love for us to turn to a necessary conversation, which is how this stress response in particular is so prevalent in the foster care and adoption world. It is not uncommon. And we've. We all just heard a story recently of a child who might get placed in a home, whether from a domestic or international adoption. And the parents just say, gosh, they came home. And we were expecting it to be hard, and it was not. It was great. The kids were awesome, and we were all doing a great, you know, having a great time, bonding, and everything was going well, building connection, and then everything went haywire. And if you are listening to this and haven't heard it, it's just a matter of time. It's a really common story within that foster care and adoption world. And so I wonder if we can kind of unpack that a little bit for all the parents who might be, you know, scared to even bring this up, because everyone's watching your family all the time, and it appears you have this perfect exterior when things start to shift and turn. Let's give parents some hope and some. And some tools kind of in this situation to walk through that. So, Stella, do you mind kind of talking about that dynamic and where that comes from and how we can begin to help there? [00:18:47] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:18:47] Speaker C: So when we think in terms of, like, children who are in foster care or who are adopted, there is a lot of transitions that they have experienced in their lives. So all of a sudden, they are placed from this different home setting to a new home that can be there permanent or temporary. So, of course, there's a lot of vulnerability that comes with that. And in their previous home situations, they probably learned how to please their caregivers in order to surv. That was a coping mechanism that they used in order to survive. So there is a lot of attachment that you can create to a coping skill, because if that's what's your safe thing in such an unsafe situation, of course, it's hard to let go of that and to then discover who you are and what your needs are and what your thoughts are. So I think that there is a lot of grief that comes with that, which then can show up as anger and resentment for blocking those needs and thoughts for such a long time. And then parents all of a sudden find themselves in this situation where they don't know what to do with this explosion. It feels like it's going from this phone response to a fight response. All of a sudden, they have all of these words and needs that come to the surface. So I think it's very important to be patient in that moment and kind of, like, take a step back as a parent and think, at least in this moment, this child is Voicing their needs, even though it's not the way I want it to be, and it's not how I would like to hear it. So celebrating those win, expressing what they need, expressing their feelings, and then with patience and compassion, meeting those needs in a way that creates safety, which can help them let go of the previous coping skills, because now you're providing a safe environment to the kids and helping them thrive. So I think that's a way to do that. [00:20:43] Speaker D: I love that you talked about how big of a transition it is for kids. I don't know if you want to talk about this at all, but I know you transitioned to Memphis from Albania. I know. I think, you know that when I was a kid, my family moved to Russia, and then I was there until I was, like, 18, and then I moved back to America. And, you know, I think thinking about those big transitions, it really does impact you. And so when we're thinking about adoption, there might. You might not have a kid from Russia, but you might. And you might have a kid from a different culture, whether that's within America or outside of that. What do you think about that cultural component, Stella? How do you think that impacts people? [00:21:26] Speaker C: Well, for many children, especially the ones who come to us and they don't speak English much, which is really common in the beginning, you basically are asking the children to voice their needs while they don't even have the words. And while there's this pressure that you feel to express yourself as an adult, I experience it on a different level because, of course, I want to perform the best way I can. I want to make sure that I'm communicating my needs. But for a child, there is this other level of vulnerability and layer of vulnerability that can be very overwhelming. So I think that patience is so important in that moment and giving them choices in order for them to decide what they want. Sometimes they don't know what they want. Right. Because they are exposed to this new culture where everything is unfamiliar and it takes time to just adjust to all of that. So choices, I think, are so important for them to actually see, too. Physical representations of what they can say and what they can do. [00:22:29] Speaker D: I love that. And I think I'm thinking about the honeymoon phase is a lot of times what people call it. It's what you're describing. You're describing what people call the honeymoon phase of adoption or foster care, where, well, everything was awesome. Everything was great. And so I think it's just making you, as the adult, take a. Take a little bit of a. Take a minute. To reflect. Like, take us. Take a minute and pause and think about man. Is compliance really my ultimate goal as a parent? And I think for a lot of people, you know, any adult that's working with any kind of kid, it's really hard not to just want compliance because so much of the time we do want what's best for kids, and we believe if they comply with us, that's what's best. [00:23:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:11] Speaker D: And I know we're talking about kids and we're talking about adoption, but whenever you grow up and you've been taught that compliance is the main thing, then you become an adult who can't negotiate their needs. That's a hallmark of secure attachment. Can't negotiate their needs. Maybe in a relationship, maybe the relationship becomes codependent. Or maybe in a job, maybe you become. You just burn yourself out over and over again because you're trying so hard to comply and to be helpful. People pleasing is an attractive quality to other people. People love a people pleaser, but for the people pleaser themselves, man, it's just, I keep coming back to, you said at the beginning, Stella, that loss of identity. And then, JD you mentioned the bitterness that comes along with that, because you can't. You can only please other people for so long before you just get exhausted and there's nothing left. And that's why as parents, especially when thinking about this adoption moment, you know, notice the honeymoon phase, but also, like Stella said, build in those opportunities for choice and be paying attention. And then you mentioned when they get a little bit calmer, Pete Walker says, at first they can't access their fight response. Well, then they can access their fight response, and you're going to see some of that. And then we just continue. And again, with all of these podcasts, as you're taking steps, the main thing is building felt safety. And felt safety comes through safe relationships. And a safe relationship is, I'm okay with you regardless of your performance, and I love you. And so I just think, like, full circle, all the things we've been talking about, talking about here. But I just love Stella. The thought of, like, how do you help them find their voice and their identity? And how do you help them name what they want and what they need and what they like? Like, it doesn't have to be super serious. It can be like, what's your favorite kind of cereal? When I moved to America, the most overwhelming choice that I had to make was walking into Walmart and picking cereal. And I would go to Subway and I would be like, why are they Asking me, I was like, I don't. I'm never going to go to Subway because they're going to ask me what kind of bread and what kind of cheese and what kind of meat and what kind of Topp. I'm going to have to answer so many questions, and I just want you to give me one thing. And I. And so I. Like. As you're talking, Stella, I'm resonating with the fawn response a little bit because I'm thinking, man, it did take me a long time to go to a Subway or to go to a Walmart and pick cereal without feeling overwhelmed, because I just wanted to. I just wanted things to go easy and to go smooth. And I think that's kind of the essence of the fawn response is you just want it to be smooth and easy in the midst of, like, dumb decisions, but, like, big decisions in your mind, like, what kind of cereal am I going to pick? [00:25:49] Speaker B: Yeah, Stella, what were some of those sticky points for you when you transitioned, like, from, you know, from your native culture to a foreign culture that. I mean, it's so. I mean, not just. Not just Albania to America, but Albania to the American south and Memphis specifically. [00:26:10] Speaker D: There's a different layer there. [00:26:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:26:11] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:26:12] Speaker B: About as harsh of a transition as you could have. So what were some of those difficult things for you in that transition? If you don't mind me sharing? Asking. [00:26:18] Speaker C: No, absolutely. I think, first of all, there was this loss of, like, I didn't feel. Okay, let me phrase this in a way that can really express how I felt about it. There was this loss of orientation, either going to a grocery store. I was used to having places in a certain way and knowing how to go to this place, not even knowing where the nearest grocery store was and what I could find there, and then not finding some of the foods that I have back home was just so important for that mindfulness and relaxation to know that you're smelling a food that reminds me of home and it's grounding you and it's making you feel mindful in the moment. So there was this loss of various things. Of course, initially, there's the honeymoon phase that comes with the cultural adaptation phases. You're so excited. You're like, oh, yes, I'm going to have a blast. I'm going to study, counseling, bless some people. And then all of a sudden, after six months and it's different for different people, you realize, oh, my word, this is. This is hitting me really hard. And there is some culture shock that's coming with it from people's responses to you, from going, my culture is relationship oriented, and the US culture is very task oriented. So there's a lot of emphasis on tasks and less on relationships initially. So understanding how people were functioning and also having grace for them that this is how they function, it's different from me, but that doesn't make them less human than me. They're just different. So building that tolerance for differences and learning how to communicate my needs in a way that is not offensive towards them, which, of course, it's a journey. I probably have said things that have made me sound sassy and not kind, but it's a journey where we learn a lot. And that's why I'm very grateful. [00:28:22] Speaker B: Do you feel like you have, you know, do you have some moments of being like, okay, I feel like I have, like, settled back down to a good, healthy place of like, I'm feeling like myself and I've kind of know how to navigate things here. Like, are you. Are you getting close to feeling that way or no? [00:28:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I think support systems is one of the things that can help you or one of the things that can help you really feel grounded. And for me, a workplace like MFCC was so crucial for that. You know, a place that is so trauma informed and it's so informed about the transitions that a person can experience and providing that felt safety, that connection that I needed to feel like, okay, I'm not just, you know, a foreigner wandering here and trying to provide counseling to people. I just felt so connected to the people around me and then community and friends. So I think those have been the main things that helped me feel more grounded and express myself while I am still trying to adjust to a culture that is still foreign in a way, even though familiar in some other ways. [00:29:30] Speaker B: Well, I love that and I love you sharing your examples and your story, because I think for folks who do have kids from maybe a different cultural context in their house, who were adopted as older kids, who did have memories and core experiences in a different setting, hopefully hearing your perspective and your story of coming over can help parents be mindful about experiences and thoughts and smells and foods and, you know, tastes and stuff that can be integrated into their regular life as families. So, Becca, for you, you know, you had sort of a reverse experience from what Stella was talking about, where you transitioned from, you know, America to Russia and then back. Were there anything in particular from your. From your time coming back from, you know, your entire childhood being in Russia? Was there anything that. That stuck out to you when you came back as like, ah, I mean, not just Subway necessarily, or cereal, but like things that. That you really needed to get a grip on when you came back. [00:30:33] Speaker D: I think so Rush. Russian culture is even more task oriented, Stella, than American. And so it's. And then I came to Jackson, Tennessee. So like, south, South. So, so it's a different pace. And so it was hard for me. People thought I was really rude all the time. Because in Russia it's about you walk into the store, you pick up the milk, and you don't say anything. You don't have to say any words. You just pick it up, you scan it, and you keep going. I have not been to New York, but I've heard it's similar to a New York or Boston culture. And so coming to the south, it was like, oh, I have to pause and I have to ask this person that I'm never going to see again, how are you? And so, and I'm not trying to sound like I did it, like I'm doing it in a fake way, but it's like I did have to learn the culture of that. And it's time consuming to like, do all the Southern pleasantries. But now I have gotten so used to it that I feel like if I were to go back and visit, I would probably be like, oh, that person was rude to me. So it's interesting how you really do adapt to your surroundings. And so I think, you know, kind of full circle back to, like, our whole bigger conversation. Like, people adapt to their surroundings. And so I think, you know, you can be really intentional about the kind of family that you want to build for your kids. Like, you can think about and you can teach values. I like that you brought that up, Stella. You can teach, like, family values. But no, for me, the conversations were hard. I mean, I could. J.D. we could have a whole. We could have a whole thing about the. I didn't. I had never driven a car. I had barely ever ridden in a car. I had to learn how to drive as an adult, which is embarrassing to go to the DMV with all the teenagers. And I failed my test a couple times. It was awful. So, I mean, there was a lot of adjustments that I had to make to the culture. There was adjustments to just the way of life. There was adjustments to ways of thinking. I do think when you do have an experience of moving between countries, you see the world differently. I think you just see people's perspectives a little differently. And so I definitely am grateful for, like, my childhood and My experiences. It was not easy to go there and it was not easy to come back. But I think it gives a different gift, gives a different perspective. I think it's easier to think about the culture and the transitions of like little bitty, you know, what we might see as a little bitty transition. It's easier for me to go, oh, that is a big thing. And I, Stella brought up a lot the loss. So anytime you have a major transition, you're losing familiar people, places, sound, smells, and you're gaining a lot too. But it is associated with a lot of loss. And so I think that was a little, little bit of a rambly response to your question. But man, I had to learn a lot and it does not feel good to be learning things that other people learned when they were teenagers. [00:33:27] Speaker B: So yeah, I would love to kind of for us to begin wrapping up there because it does bring us back to the point of that we talk about in. Etc all the time that compassion doesn't have a shelf life. Right. And for our kids who are. And whether you're talking about kids who are biologically born into a family, kids who are, you know, come to a family through adoption, through foster care, temporary permanent placements, you know, family, you know, going to live with grandma or going to live with auntie or whatever, like no matter, no matter the situation, that compassion does not have a shelf life and can always go toward the building of connection between you and the kids that are in your care. And so I would definitely just try to leave all of us with that last thought. Do either of you have kind of last thoughts we want to leave people with on this topic today before we go? [00:34:23] Speaker C: For me, it's just a reminder that since that we've been talking about all the stress responses and this was the last one, just a reminder that our stress responses identify who we are and they don't label us. They are just ways that we respond in very vulnerable moments and kind of like to separate ourselves from what our stress response is and to dig in deeper and find where our identity is and what is at the core of who you are and who we are in those moments of calm and peace is way more important than the moments when we are stressed and to extend that same compassion that we extend to other people, especially the people who struggle with the phone response towards ourselves. I think that can be the beginning of a new journey and can bring a lot of change and growth. So yeah. [00:35:15] Speaker D: Becca, I mean, what else can you add besides that? Stella, that's everything. If you are identifying with a fawn response and you're listening to this, if you begin to just be aware of it, you might feel really ashamed. You might be like, oh my goodness, I just did it again. I said yes and I meant to say no. Or you might say no and the person gets mad at you and you're like, oh, that felt really awful and terrible. And so I just think extending yourself the same compassion that you would extend anybody else is just going to be so crucial for the journey. [00:35:46] Speaker B: Thank you all so much for joining us today for this. This is really, really great. Stella, Becca, appreciate it so much. [00:35:58] Speaker E: We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, the best way to support us going forward is to subscribe. We'd love to hear from you, leave a review, drop us a comment, or email us to let us know what you hope to hear in future episodes. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at etc, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empower to Connect podcast. Until the then, we're holding on to hope with you.