[E178] From Trauma and Loss to Healing and Empowerment with Cam Lee Small

[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome to the empowered to Connect podcast where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families, and our communities. I'm JD Wilson and I am your host. And today in the show, we're jumping with one of our favorite guests. It is Cam Lee Small. You can find him on Instagram at Redeemed. He is an author, speaker, therapist, licensed professional counselor. Just an influential person in the world of adoption, mental health and faith. And so he's got a book coming out this June, which is a topic of our conversation today. And I won't spoil or take his thunder up here. I'll let him share more about that. But the book is going to be phenomenal. We're so excited to have him here today to share from an adoptee's perspective just everything from identity formation to how do you navigate if I should go to therapy or not, or how do I navigate the intersection of faith and mental health? And he's Cam is great. It was very much like sitting through a counseling session today with him, and his insight and wisdom is deep and far and wide. So we're just really grateful for him. And so you can find him again on Instagram at therapyredeemed. You can also Google therapyredeemed and find his information on his practice courses. He's got resources, all that that'll be linked in the show notes below. In case you want to find more on how you can connect with Cam or with Cam's work. Without any further ado, here he is now, Cam Lee small talking about his new book and adoptee's perspective. Well, as I said earlier, we are here today with Cam Lee Small and he's going to share with us a lot about both his life, but also about an exciting project he's working on that is coming in June 2024. And so if you have missed our first conversation with Cam, he and I were talking off air before we recorded. It was a lot more tactical, kind of as a practical parenting advice episode. So I'll link that in the show notes below. It is a very helpful episode, but today will be a lot more the biographical and then talking through his upcoming book. And so Cam, I mean, thank you number one for being here with us again. And then second, I would love for people who do not know your story or kind of how and why you got into the work that you're in today. For you just to share a little about that. And then we'll talk about the book coming up. [00:02:39] Speaker B: JD, it's awesome to be here returning guest. I think I was back in 2021, so it's been a couple of years, so I appreciate you having me back on. [00:02:49] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:02:49] Speaker B: I come into this conversation as a korean american adoptee. I currently serve as a mental health provider, a licensed professional clinical counselor, and a lot of the work that I do, it's a merging of my personal story, kind of walking through dimensions of adoptee consciousness and awareness about what is adoption, what does it mean for us, what are matured meanings, and how do those meanings evolve over time? And then with my skill set, background in training in counseling psychology, really trying to help folks professionally normalize this process of mental health that we don't have to be in crisis for it. And if we do happen to come into an intense season, it is okay and appropriate, normal even to ask for help. So in terms of mental health, that's where I sort of enter into the conversation with adoptees, with parents, with allies, with service providers, colleagues, professionals in the community. That's really where I'm at right now, currently. Awesome. [00:03:59] Speaker A: And your book coming out in June, talk to us about what you can from the book, and then I'd love to know the foundations of it. What was it that was burning inside of you that you had to get it out in book form? And so won't we start there? [00:04:17] Speaker B: One of the main motivations and desires and inspirations that I have for this particular book is to answer and address some questions that we have as members of the church community and maybe even folks that are wondering about what is faith and how does that even relate to mental health. And there's a large portion of adoptees who were placed through some kind of local church involvement or a faith based organization. What does that mean for us? So this book is an extension of a dialogue that has been happening for decades, really just adoptees asking, can we talk about this? There are some operations and there are some decisions and people making decisions. There are a lot of these processes happening sometimes behind the scenes that we don't have language for. So my hope for this book is that we can give and present and co create that language together as part of the local church community. But even if you feel distant from the church community or you don't feel like that resonates with you, that's okay, too. It's really an invitation for us to get together as a community, as adoptees especially, and work through these layers together. And as we develop that content and the discussion, we can bring that to the people that we love and that we care about. And even bring that into our advocacy. So this book is really for folks to kind of read through that and inspire folks to do that on their own terms in their specific context. [00:05:59] Speaker A: Would you say the book is written primarily toward adoptees or toward adopted families or kind of. Is it a blend of both? [00:06:07] Speaker B: I love that question. It reminds me of the conversation I had with the editor, my editor, when we first kind of started this like two and a half years ago. It is written to adult adoptees, and that's the primary kind of hope, audience, community that I'm writing to. And then he mentioned, you can think of someone is going to look over the shoulder as an adult adoptee, is reading someone who cares about adoptees, someone who's concerned, and they feel compelled to help and support and come alongside of us. It's also written so that someone looking over our shoulder can gain insight and inspiration, too, and calls to action. Yeah. [00:06:52] Speaker A: What was the hardest part of writing the book for you? [00:06:58] Speaker B: Chapters related to grief. Because I'm pulling from my personal story, and I think there was a season when I was writing that portion, and it weaves throughout the entire book, but that specific chapter on grief, it's kind of thinking through all of my intake documents, recalling my own reunion meetings and even just while I was writing it, the current sort of tension of not being able to meet with my birth family as I was trying to reconnect with them. And we were traveling back and forth during that time. Yeah. Managing everything that comes up while I'm trying to write something helpful and useful and sincere for the reader. So it's really a mixture of being honest and open and vulnerable, transparent and professional, and maintaining a practice of self care, even just spiritual, physical, emotional health during that time and throughout the whole book, but specifically during that time. [00:08:05] Speaker A: An easy line to find, right? Yeah. For people. If you have not, I'll link this in the show notes. If you have not watched this, Kim was interviewed by a CBS affiliate in his city area, local CBS affiliate. If people have not seen that, would you kind of share? I was struck in light of what the subject matter of the book is, your story of your earliest memories of getting off plane and everything when you were coming over, will you kind of share that story, what you shared on the interview with CBS and kind of how that relates particularly to this content in the book. [00:08:48] Speaker B: I have a lot of appreciation and respect for Susan Littlefield, the journalist who invited me in, and just the way that we were able to have conversations leading up to the filming of that discussion and really trying to be as thoughtful as possible. What feels comfortable to share, what would be helpful for this local community to hear as we're working through trying to raise awareness about adoptee foster related needs in the community. So the beginning of the interview really was her asking, when you share your story, where do you usually begin? I talked about being born in Korea, and earlier on in my life, I used to actually just introduce myself when it related to adoption. I was adopted from Korea, and that was where my story began. And so what I was sharing in the interview was my hope that right now and currently, and throughout the last few years, I've been trying to be intentional about really bringing that layer of Korea to life by saying, I was born in Korea. I know it's a small thing, and maybe people out there listening right now, you've even shared that and didn't think too much of it. That's okay. But for me, the reason I begin with that is to acknowledge that there was a life I had that I was living before I was adopted, that I was a son before I was adopted. I had family, I had heritage, culture, ancestry. And then working through the idea that I lived there for three and a half years. And, I mean, you're a parent. Three and a half years. Yes. It goes by quick, and there's a lot that can happen in one morning that can be ups and downs. So three and a half years of that with two caregivers, my parents, right. Often, for me, was dismissed when I would just say, just all throughout my life, I was adopted. So even for me, that language almost limited me as a person, cognitively, as a kid, from even just recognizing I have this part of my story that it's just so much that I could be knowing about and questions asking. So unpacking all of that in that interview leading up to mother's decision in anguish to place me for adoption, relinquishment, and then being placed on an airplane and flown across the world, landing and being sort of placed into the arms of these, to me at that point, strangers, the language, who are these people? What is going on here? And I think that can sometimes get eclipsed by the welcome home celebration, gotcha day. And I'm not pointing fingers or shaming anyone who celebrates Agacha Day, but part of the experience, the lived experience of that child can sometimes get missed if there's too much of an emphasis on that celebration of coming home. Well, I had a home for three and a half years and acknowledging that. So that was the bulk of the interview portion. The two minutes, but our conversation was like an hour or 2 hours long. And again, the front end leading up to that conversation. So thankful for that. And then afterwards, being able to debrief and process with Susan. [00:12:19] Speaker A: Yeah, it's powerful. Again, we'll link it below. You should definitely watch it. One of the things that really stuck out to me, and one of the things that I wanted to talk with you about today is just those early formations of identity, and particularly in school and the environments that socially are beginning to shape your experience in the world and shape your beliefs of the world and all that. I know that for us. And again, I will say no shame, I'm not going to name agencies, but when we were, we were going through the adoption process, totally going through in sort of a hero's mindset, in sort of this, like, you're doing a noble thing mindset. There's not very much emphasis at all on mindfulness, of early formation of identity and environments. I would say providentially fortunate that where we were bringing a child home to the community we're coming home to was a pretty vibrant, rich community that was extremely diverse. And so the experiences for our son, who's African American like, for him, coming home to a city that's almost split totally black and white in the south, helped those experiences to not be so linear early on. But I wish that had been an intentional thing on our part. It was completely, again, I would not say luck. It was completely providential by God to allow that to happen for us. Will you talk from an especially personal experience, but also from a therapeutic experience, why those early formations of identity are so important and why mindfulness about that, from parents is so important. [00:13:59] Speaker B: We are growing up, we're waking up each day, and we're forming thoughts, and we're cataloging our feelings and emotions, and we are soaking in everything. So as a small child, yes, there is that process of attachment of when I put out a queue, this person helps me. Really simple. The serve, return call and response that need expressed. [00:14:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:31] Speaker B: Yes. Now we're thinking through that term identity, which is, there are volumes to study on this. If I were to boil it down into that phrase of, like, who am I? What do I have to work with and who do I want to become? We're thinking about as a child, where I look different than my parents, not just, oh, I have different hair color, but there is this skin, physical outward appearance that is different. And even when we're out in public, the sort of hypervisibility that I can't hide, it's not like I can kind of keep this secret or private. It's just happening. Something about the exposure to witnessing either or media or in person representations of this, or literature, theater, music, whatever. People who look like me, what do they do? What can't they do? How are they treated? How do others feel about them? Or how they're treated? How do they feel about that? And we begin to develop. And because of our conversation here, we'll think about racial identity. And racial identity, we can go into a lot of jargon about it, but essentially, it's the process of seeking out experiences with folks with this sort of, like, you can call it a shared consciousness, a shared memory, even a shared destiny, but that we share this lived experience, we're seeking out experiences of that. I'm sorry. That's process content is the thoughts and feelings and the information available to me and to the people around me regarding this particular racial identity. Now we think about race as a system of power, and again, that's another training and additional training. But identity at home with my adoptive parents, it looks like, how are they providing for me? Truth that can help me challenge lies, if I were to just boil it down. And through that process, I learn about who am I? Who am I associated with? To which communities am I responsible? Or can I look to. To receive support? We think about sense of belonging, past, present, and future possibilities. That sense of identity, if I'm only receiving that from false balances like lies, like stereotypes, prejudice, bigotry, racism. If that's the pipeline of information, then it's going to be difficult. It's going to be a challenge. I guess we could say the cards might be stacked against us in terms of growing a sense of confidence that I am capable, I have the capacity to reflect the glory of God, to serve, to be served, to reflect and practice, demonstrate kindness and strength, develop strengths and abilities and skills, and even just envisioning the future. If all I'm getting is, you do this, and that's pretty much it. It's going to take either a supernatural kind of help, which I believe in, and practically, though, it's going to take a really heavy dose of some intentional presence of people and intentional interaction with activities, immersion experiences, education, to really cultivate a sort of challenging of that status quo. [00:18:29] Speaker A: Talk about racial mirrors on Instagram. There's a reel where you talk about that and the importance of that. And I think as parents are thinking about contemplating adoption, and I would say as parents are thinking about parenting, period, those racial mirrors are important. Is there anything you'd like to speak to in terms of the thought process of setting your kids up for success in that particular way. [00:19:01] Speaker B: So we're thinking about racial mirrors, and maybe for some folks listening, you're kind of thinking about, oh, my goodness, my child goes to a predominantly white school, and the teachers are white and leadership authority figures. How am I going to present them or give them exposure to people of color or someone that shares their racial ethnic background? And why is that important? So there's an idea, and I guess part of this phrase I get from Angela Tucker, and that's fresh in my mind because I was just in a training that Angela's providing, using this term, outsourcing. But what I'm thinking through is, it's okay for a white adoptive parent who's parenting an adoptive color. It's okay for a white adoptive parent to say that I don't have what it takes. I don't have enough to offer this child in terms of education about their history and celebrating different holidays related to their origin story. It's okay for them to acknowledge we might need some help with this. Okay. And there's no shame in that. In fact, there's favor to a sense of humility, humble. Right. And what I usually work with parents is we're thinking, well, I guess one question, and this is not to make parents feel bad, but if it's hard to think about, well, where I'm not even in an area where I could make friends with someone of color, well, we might want to hesitate before we're thinking about adoption. Bringing a child of color into that community, that's one thing. And again, no shame. This is a dialogue. The second idea is being in spaces where, I'm sorry, just a daily lifestyle routine, just our norm. What does that look like? If I'm conducting an assessment with a family, with prospective adoptive parents, walk me through your day to day life. Who are you having meals with? What kind of community gatherings are you a part of? Share about your experience at church, your friend group, the social activities. And again, like I said earlier, if it's really difficult, if you feel like you're going out of character, out of your way to be in spaces where your child from either another country or another racial ethnic background, if it feels like you have to go really out of your way to provide them with that, well, then we reverse engineer. How do you make it so you wouldn't have to go out of your way? How would you make it so that it's just really natural? I step out my door, and this is our story world. It's racial ethnic diversity. How does that happen? And if that can't happen, how are we being intentional about even inside our home? And this is not to say that just some pictures and books inside our home can account or compensate for relinquishment and transcultural, transnational, international adoption, and the losses and traumas associated with that can't compensate for that. But there is a racial ethnic scale provided by the Harvard Ethnic Racial Identity Laboratory that is led by Dr. Umani Taylor. And folks can look that up online. It's free and it's not written for adoptees or adoptive families, but it just gives kind of like a checklist of like if a child was taking that assessment. My parents teach me about my racial ethnic history, or I regularly attend activities or festivals or gatherings related to my racial ethnic background. We regularly play music or watch television or media representative of or produced by members of my racial ethnic background. So I think there are decision points like that that a family can consider when we're trying to increase or again, be intentional about pursuing racial ethnic supports for children who can't fully get that from their white adopted parents. [00:23:42] Speaker A: Okay, so we're talking about lots of things related to trauma and loss. Obviously, that comes with the adoption process. So your book, I want to go back to this. The title is from trauma and loss to empowerment to healing and empowerment, an adoptees journey for those. So let's talk about the healing and empowerment piece. So for those who are hearing this, adoptees or adoptive parents or people who are like, this is just a lot to think through and a lot to work through as a human. And there's a heaviness in there. There can be healing and empowerment to come out of each of our stories. Right. So will you talk about that part of your own journey and then how you hope for the book to accomplish that or start that process for your readers? [00:24:34] Speaker B: The title, it's a little tricky, I guess a little spoiler alert, kind of a bait and switch. It makes me think about someone going from loss and trauma and someone just really grappling with that, and then they're turning from the loss and trauma to healing and empowerment. It's as if we can go from one to the other from point a to point b. My hope, and I know that there is some of that, if you think about physical wound, a cut in the skin, and sure it can heal, there's healing there. My hope with the book, though, is to invite readers into that dialogue of it's really about widening the scope of the lived experience of an adoptee. And I as an adoptee, just from my own story, Cam went through a process of thinking, okay, well, unless I fully heal from grief and loss and start to feel complete and whole and content all day, every day, unless I have that, then I can't really claim that I'm in a process of healing and I can't really feel empowered. It's to help me get away from that sort of like all or nothing black and white thinking that mental filter. But widening the scope, the widening the range of change for an adoptee means that, yes, there are actually layers of grief and trauma that I'm going to be navigating lifelong. And that's part of the process. It's kind of the rub. I can't control that. And while I recognize that and invite supporters and resources in my life to hold that, I can also be living in a process of reoccurring, regular moments of either incremental, maybe even milestones, significant experiences of personal revelation, insight about myself, about the world, about God even. And with that sort of like internal scope of awareness and revelation also increases my capacity to respond to the world coming at me. Maybe you can call it sin from the outside, suffering from the outside, but the forces that plot against me, I can respond to that and still live in an empowered way. I can still make choices. I still have decision making capacity based on the revelations and the internal and interpersonal dialogue that they have in interactions, I can still live in a meaningful, satisfying story arc. So from loss and trauma to healing and empowerment, you can count on that range, entire range moving forward lifelong. And if we can accept that, then we can leverage bridge that internally, individually, for ourselves, but also outward, collectively, for our neighbors, for our siblings, perhaps for the glory of God. If that's your faith background and just the flourishing of humanity, just basic common grace for ourselves and those around us. [00:27:51] Speaker A: I love that. And that feels, it's a very therapist thing to say, to talk about like, no, we're not eradicating the trauma and loss. We're working through that, and that's a part of our story forever, right? And the healing and the empowerment can also be part of that story. And we kind of go from, it's the C. S. Lewis thought of like moment to moment, like moments of suffering, moments of glory, and to understand those things as part of the story, not separate from each other. Right? I love that. I guess you've answered a whole lot of questions of this, and I have a thousand more that I want to ask, but I'll keep it to just a few. One of the things that we talk about here at empower connect all the time. Starting this work of trying to parent at all in a way that is, call it effective or helpful, whatever adjective you want to use in that situation, it, it doesn't start with kids. It starts with us, right. And figuring out our own internal work. I wonder for adult adopts who have yet to start their parenting journey or have yet to go into that world of parenting kids. I wonder if you on the other side of it now, if you have some advice for adult adoptees that are working through their questions, their stories as they prepare to have families one day. [00:29:20] Speaker B: So there's an adult adoptee who is considering parenthood or they're kind of on a pathway to that. And how do I prepare for this? What kind of layers can I think through to walk this journey? Well, I think for me personally, just right now as a parent, every day I fail at being a perfect parent. And that's just a really easy thing to say. Anyone can say that. But I think for me, the milestones that are parallel with ages that I navigated as an adoptee myself. So being in those types of seasons with my children, I wasn't fully prepared for some of the internal reflections and the reactions that I would have. Like, for example, I'll just use my son as an example when he turned three. Well, that's the age I was when my dad died in Korea. And I'm celebrating with my family and him. I love him in a way that we can't put into words. And I just know during that week, during that season, and on that day, there were some reflections in my mind and there some grief that I'm holding now. I've gone through my personal work and I have support and resources. And of course, as a clinician, as a mental health provider, I'm biased. And I have preparations in mind to journal through that, to pray through that. Great. But for an adult adoptee sort of embarking on this journey, I think one of the recommendations and suggestions that I give in adult adoptee groups that I facilitate or even just other speaking engagements is to open up to that sense of community support. Are there folks in the community that you can reach out to? Are there books or articles that you can read that help normalize this process for you? And just even the expectation that there can be milestone moments, there can be seasons, circumstances and situations that can activate different questions or wonderings or feelings for you. And this is not to project, to say, like, okay, every moment of your adoptee journey, of your parenting journey has to mean something about adoption. But it's really just saying like, hey, there could be potentially mixed dimensions, dimensions to intersect with your life as an adoptee and your journey that intersect with your journey as a parent. So that's something that you could expect, but really, yeah, just a normalization. Meet with formally or informally with a counselor or someone that you trust that you can bounce ideas off of while you're walking that path. So there's a lot more. And that's actually, I mean, in my book, there's entire chapter dedicated to navigating relationships, community, emotions, kind of like the whole gamut. And again, it's not like the one size or it's not like the comprehensive guidebook to being an adoptee, but really, there are some resources in there that can help an adult adoptee really sit with this conversation that you and I are talking about right now. [00:32:49] Speaker A: I imagine still it's the same conversation of being on the spectrum, right? That spectrum of loss and trauma to healing and empowerment flows throughout each segment of our lives, right? And so there's going to be easy moments, hard moments. Last thought, last question or topic I want to talk with you about today is the intersection of faith and mental health and adoption. And we could take two of those three in any combination and fill up an entire probably series of podcasts. This is not to say we're going to cover the entire topic right now, but when it comes to those three layers, what are kind of your thoughts on the current state of whether it's what you're seeing in your practice, what you're seeing trends on the Internet in thought patterns related to faith, adoption and mental health, or where you would want for those things to go. What are your thoughts right now on the intersection of those three components? [00:33:50] Speaker B: I think faith can be a very beautiful, helpful, powerful practice. And I don't think faith should be used to prevent adoptees from exploring their stories or speaking their stories aloud in their families or in their communities. That's one of the main thrusts in the book, and I'm not the first person to kind of think through that or say that, but that's really when we're talking about these different intersections, it's an invitation for us to ask folks if that's you, if you feel like, because people around you have had faith or even from your own faith, if you feel like there are questions that you'd like to explore but you feel guilty, maybe, or just hesitant because I should love Jesus more or if I loved Jesus, I wouldn't have to search for my birth family. If you feel any cinder of that, even then, this book can be something to invite you into that conversation. Invite us into the conversation, especially, as I mentioned earlier, an adoptive parent looking over the shoulder of an adult adoptee reading this book. If you're that adoptive parent, how has faith operated in your parent child relationship? And how has faith operated in your concept of adoption, just in general. And having that conversation can be so fruitful and it can even yield a deeper connection, a genuine connection, even parent child relationship. [00:35:42] Speaker A: Give us the sales pitch from a therapist perspective for the person who does have that block of okay, but I've got faith that God can take care of all these issues I'm walking through. I don't have to go to some person who's not God to heal myself from these things. I don't need mental health care. I need the gospel. What would be your argument for mental health care as part of God's assistance to us as humanity? [00:36:18] Speaker B: Amen to that. Well, I think of this idea of how wide, how long, how deep is the love of God. We're thinking about untapped oceans of resource and love and empathy that exist inside of you, dear adoptee. And if you are just burning to live out the gospel, would God use your curiosities as an adoptee to bless the world? I think so. And I would never discount that. Right? I'm not going to rule that out. And it's just this idea that, wow, in what kinds of ways could I even just unlock strengths within me and insights and revelations, not to make me a hero or a martyr or a savior, but just to even increase my sense of humanity. And again, I'm not going to say, hey, you should spend time, grieve your story and cry and be this negative emotional person. Nothing wrong to you if that resonates with you. But what we're just saying is that sort of exploration, I think, in a way now I got to be really careful here because I could end up sort of doing the same thing that I'm, in a way encouraging people not to do. But if there is a way, even just two pictures here, the talent, okay, you've got this lived experience that could resonate with people around you and just a way to love them and serve them. Okay, great. But I don't want to pressure you to look into your adoption story if you don't want to. That's okay. You don't have to. The second one is there is a seed for example that falls to the earth and is growing. And if there's a block or a boulder or some obstacle on top of someone as they're growing, it's possible that this sort of internal exploration of the adopted journey can help us carry that burden with a neighbor. I'm not saying it's completely necessary. I'm not saying it's going to save you. I'm not saying it's the person of Jesus Christ. I'm just saying that it's possible that our own internal consciousness, adoptee consciousness, just about activism and the realities of adoption, the increasing of that within us, can potentially increase our capacity to increase the presence and the help and the refuge and the grace of God in another person's life relative to or associated with their adoptee journey. Okay, now we don't have to just. This is all I think about, 24/7 adoptee. How can I be an activist? All I'm asking is, are there ways for me to tap into and to access these oceans of grace in me related to the adoptee journey so that, yes, I can experience the grace myself, but also perhaps pour into another person's life in a way that brings refreshment and the fragrance of Christ here and now, this very moment. To my neighbor. Yeah. [00:39:47] Speaker A: Guys, he is Cam Lee Small. His book is the Adoptee's journey from loss and trauma to healing and empowerment, coming in June through university Press. Cam, always a pleasure to be with you. Thank you for the work you're doing. Thank you for your time today and your vulnerability. And we can't wait to talk to you again soon. [00:40:06] Speaker B: Thanks for having me, JD. [00:40:12] Speaker A: Again, the book is the adoptees journey from loss and trauma to healing and empowerment, coming in June of 2024 through university Press. And so if it is after June 2024, when you're reading this, what are you waiting for? Go buy the book. If it is before then, then just stay tuned. Go ahead and hit the preorder button as soon as you see it on Amazon or wherever you get all of your favorite books. But just a huge thank you to Cam. I said to him off air, it was refreshing. Just as a parent, as an adoptive parent, a transracial adoptive parent, sitting and talking with him today, I felt like I got a free therapy session from him and were just things that I needed to have in my mind and be conscious of to be a better parent today and not just a better parent, a better, more thoughtful human. And so we are the biggest fans of his work on earth and so just really grateful for him. Joining us today. You can find more about him. You can find more about empower to connect, and find all of our resources linked below in the show notes. But that's all for us this week. Again, we got a ton of great stuff coming this spring. Super excited to continue bringing you carpool Q and A every Thursday and Friday toward the end of the week, 15 minutes or less to get you from point a to point b. One topic, one conversation, and more of the empowered to connect podcast as well. More deeper dive discussions as we go throughout the spring. So for everybody here at Empowered to connect, for Kyle Wright, who edits engineers, all of our audio. For Tad Jewett, the creator of the music behind the empowered to I'm JD Wilson, and we'll see you next week on the Big man podcast.