[E175] Discipline: How to Set Loving Limits with Lauren Wantz

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to the Empowered to Connect podcast, where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families, and our communities. I'm JD Wilson, and I am your host. And today on the show, we've got Lauren Wentz and Audinger, and we're going to talk about the idea of punishment versus limits, boundaries, mindsets. And so it's easy. And I would say for a lot of us, probably our default when we start parenting, to think bad behavior, got to punish it, make sure you discipline it, make sure that you and all that line of thinking is a very logical way of thinking. And then for a lot of us, we come to this style of parenting, a connection and attachment based approach, because we then quickly find something is not resonating or working with that approach. And so if that wasn't you, that was definitely me. So I will just say it from that perspective. So we brought Lauren today to talk from a therapist and mom's perspective about this whole idea of having a punishment mindset versus a limit mindset or a boundary mindset. And so you will hear Tana and Lauren with me in just a minute. And so, without any further ado, let's get into it now. Our conversation with Lauren Wentz and Tana Onker. All right, well, we're here with Lauren and Tana and guys. So for those who have listened to the podcast for a while, might not know you, Lauren, or your story, you're the clinical coordinator at Connection Center, a therapist mom, and lots of other things as well. But why don't you just share a little about yourself and your role at MFCC for people to have kind of context about who you are? [00:01:52] Speaker B: Sure. [00:01:52] Speaker C: So, yes, as JD said, I'm Lauren. I've been at MFCC for maybe since, like, 2018. My family found MFCC out of need. We were fostering our now teenage son at the time, and since then have added to our family through adoption. We also have a young, almost five year old. So we're kind of on both ends of the spectrum there. I'm a licensed therapist and been licensed for about the past twelve years. And so here I see children and families for therapy, and then also in my clinical role, just kind of help support the clinical team. [00:02:30] Speaker A: Awesome. Tana is here as well. And so, Tana, before we jump into this conversation today, I have said this a couple of different times, but throughout the series, but we are not looking at any one episode as kind of the end all be all right. So these are all part of we would say that this series as a whole kind of pieces together what we would call kind of your framework or your starting out viewpoint on discipline. And so not to look at these as standalones, but as puzzle pieces that kind of fit together to give a whole picture of how we view discipline. So today, if you don't mind, why don't you start by framing our conversation for today, and then we'll jump into. [00:03:10] Speaker B: I think, I'm so glad you said that, JD, because I know there's a couple of episodes in this series. I think what would be important for our listeners to know is in our class setting, when we're going through cultivate connection and teaching this class, these are the very last modules of, like, 18 hours of course content. Together, we've built all of this foundation for thinking and considering and understanding and being curious and thinking about ourselves. And all of that is brought into this idea of how do we actually address, support, manage, respond, et cetera, to behavior. And so there's a lot of nuance and complexity here. So I really would ask for you all to take it all as a whole and really try to think with a big lens. Like, if you think, well, we said this, but we didn't say this, that must mean this. Go ahead and listen to all the episodes before you start trying to figure out what all we mean. [00:04:15] Speaker A: We know, Tana, there are a lot of people who probably clicked on this episode first because it says punishment. They're like, oh, yeah, good stuff. [00:04:22] Speaker B: That's right. So go just hit pause and listen to the few before let's just look at this big picture. But it is so understandable. We are given this task as parents and caregivers to address behavior. We know we cannot let just children and teenagers and behavior run them up. And so it is an interesting thing to start figuring out. How do you view that through the lens of helping them grow and building into functioning, respectable, kind, flourishing young adults and into an adulthood. And so one of the things that is a pretty big mindset shift. So I think, I really want us to talk first about how this is a mindset and then what it looks like in practice. So it's this idea of a punishment mindset versus setting a loving limit mindset. So the punishment mindset is when you think things like kids should learn how to behave. On the outset, we probably would all say, yes, they do need to know how to behave, or they should be able to behave whatever behave means to you. But then there's this idea of, like a loving limit mindset, which is a quote by Ross green that we love. That's like kids do well if and when they. So how, that's a little bit of a paradox. Like what do we do with that moment? Because we need them to do something. But then if we fundamentally think that if they could sort of behave well or do well, whatever we think that means in that moment, then they would be. So what role do I play as mom or caregiver in that moment to support the behavior? And so I think that's where we need to talk about what do we believe if we are looking at it from a punishment mindset? And then what do we believe if we're looking at it from a loving limit mindset? Lauren, what's coming to mind when you think about those two things differently? [00:06:43] Speaker C: I think one thing that was really coming to my mind when you started talking, so many families that I talk to have that fear of if I don't get control of this behavior, if we don't figure out how to get them to stop this behavior, then what's going to happen in three years, five years, ten years, 20 years? And it's so easy to get really worried about the future when it comes to kids behaviors. And the thing is that we can only control the present, right. But there's this fear of if we don't, then what happens? And honestly, an easier approach as parents is just to look at what's preventing them from being able to do this thing that I need them to do. And if I can figure that out, I can figure out kids do well if they can. Right. And if they're not what's getting in the way, and if I can figure out what's getting in the way, then I can teach. Then I can teach a skill that they'll know in three years and five years and ten years when there's nobody there to punish them. Right. [00:07:41] Speaker B: Right. Because that punishment mindset really is like discipline means to punish. And the loving limit mindset is discipline means to teach. But how are we going to teach and support if we don't know what it is? That sort of missing piece. It takes so much curiosity around that, and it takes a good bit more work. Right. It takes a good bit more work to do that than it does to sort of, in a fear based way, respond to behavior. [00:08:09] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:13] Speaker C: Go ahead, JD. [00:08:14] Speaker A: You got it, Lauren. [00:08:16] Speaker C: No, it is definitely a mindset shift, and it's active work as parents that we have to take. Right. We don't just learn it once. We're not going to listen to this podcast today or read the book tomorrow, and tomorrow all of a sudden have a different mindset. We have to actively work towards viewing our kids through a different lens, being curious, regulating our own selves in the middle of challenging behaviors, right? It is an active mindset shift and we're going to fall back sometimes and we'll talk about that. We'll talk about regulating our own selves and repair. But yeah, it's not easy work. [00:08:51] Speaker B: If some of these things are in your mind, like if these are thoughts you have or a belief system that you're working from, I'm going to just list off a few. Then you might be coming from a punishment mindset. So if you have thoughts like, children need consequences as a punishment in order to learn or grow or stop, if you think punishment teaches a lesson and that will change for the long haul, or children learn how to behave when they're scared of getting in trouble, or when there's like a threat of a consequence. Or adults need to distill punishment or consequences in order to show children that they're in charge. Like, I'm the boss here, right? Or if there's even the idea of like, they just need to stop doing this and do something different right now, then those are some of the telltale. You may not have those as explicit thoughts, but they could be like the framework at which you're thinking about behavior and consequences. That is a punishment mindset. So the opposite of that is that loving limits, which is discipline, means to teach. And we believe that children need loving limits to learn and grow. We're not saying it's a free for all. We're saying we need to set some boundaries, some guardrails, some like this is as far as this can go until we make some kind of a change, which we'll talk about in just a little bit. And it means scaffolding skills and meeting needs and being curious and offering co regulation and thinking about all of that building up into long term growth. We also know that children need safe adult relationships to co regulate and learn skills for a lifetime. That those skills, we can't scare skills into kids like skills are developed in relationship together. That's a really big aha. I can't scare my kid into being more capable of doing something or I can't threaten them into that. And that it's okay for us to share some power. We talk about that a lot on the podcast. What is sharing power and balancing nurture and structure to really move forward with a more capable or growing their child's capacity in any given situation, to have a different response. And that as adults, we might need to provide a different kind of support. Right. Instead of the children needing to do something different, maybe it's us that needs to do something different. That would be kind of that loving limit mindset that we're talking about. So, Lauren, what would you add to that? Or what's coming to mind? [00:11:36] Speaker C: So you mentioned that we can't scare them into learning skills. Right? And all I could think about when you were saying that is when we're instilling fear, even if they know the skill, they're not going to be able to access it because of everything that we know about the brain. And there's lots of other podcast episodes about that. But I think when we use scare tactics or fear tactics or threaten, we're often causing our children to go into their freeze response or their fawn response, and so they're not going to be able to access the skills that they may know and they just can't use them. [00:12:14] Speaker B: I think sometimes connected parenting gets a little bit of a bad rap because there is this idea that it's super permissive or that it's a free for all or the kids are totally in charge. I think that that sometimes is a perception, and I think what we're advocating for here is there's actually a really different way. It doesn't have to be super punishment mindset, and it definitely doesn't need to be permissive, but there is a pathway through with boundaries and limits that are set in a collaborative and child advocate framework. Right, where you really do want the child to be successful through that sticky spot. I think we probably all have examples of this in our own parenting, right? What does this look like in real life? How can we put flesh on this and say, here's some places and spaces where we might see this show up? [00:13:21] Speaker C: Jd, you gave a great example when we were talking earlier. Do you want to share? [00:13:26] Speaker A: Long, long time ago, one of our kiddos was real small and prime, like, showing out in the store age. And so we are in a pawn shop, of all places. We were looking for a musical instrument. And just. It's one of those environments where you're just like, just please, nothing go wrong in here. There's just stuff at eye level and arm's length that is very expensive and. [00:13:52] Speaker B: Breakable, and you're at a pawn shop. So it's like shimmery and shiny. [00:13:59] Speaker A: And so this particular kid, I look down to look at a drum set, and it's the classic, like, I turned my back for 1 second and I hear the clerk say, oh no, baby, not in a harsh way, not in a rude way, not in like, what are you doing? Just literally, oh no, baby. And I look over and this kid is holding flute and looking like trying to figure out how to twist it apart. My eyes get huge and I was like, hey, let me have that. We cannot play with that right now. I think the embarrassment set in and just starts wailing. Not sad, crying, defiant. Like I am about to make my presence felt, crying and just losing it and then starting to thrash around, not letting me hold him close. And so at this point I was just getting over my fear of this happening in public where I would then fall apart and try to show out or mad or whatever, be like, no, we're not going to do it. I hit the kid by the hand, clenched my teeth and helped the store clerk and I was like, we'll be right back. And we walk out the store and get to the car. And I'm sure that clerk thought I was going to the car to administer a good old fashioned whooping. Like no g on the end whooping. And really we got in the car and where it was quiet and there wasn't all the chaos and noise around us or breakable things right at eye level and I said, hey, and we got to point. We're not crying, all right? We can't just grab stuff off the shelf in there like it's expensive. And that's not why we went there. But if you can handle it, I want you to come back in, let's have a redo and let's go back in and let's just do it the right way. I know you want to be in there with me. This is super exciting that we're looking for a present for your sibling and it's a secret mission. I would love for you to come with me, but when we go in, you guys stick with me and we've just got to say, keep our hands to ourselves. We can look at everything. And if you want to ask me if you can touch stuff, maybe there will be some things we can hold and look at while we're there. Do you think we can handle that? And sweet kiddo goes, yeah. I said, do you want to handle that or do you just want to bail? Because I was not sure at this point. You all know in holiday season, it's just as nuts. And so this kid says, I really want to redo. Can we do it again? And I was like, yes, we can. And we got in there and of course, look down the drum set. There's an entire drum missing out of the set. And I was like, I didn't even freaking have to be in the store, but they had handled it well. They looked at some stuff before we left and then we got out of there easily. I do want to emphasize, we're going to give some examples. What we are not saying is, here's the three right steps to doing this, but we do want to give some frameworks for it. Sometimes a redo in that moment, if the kid can calm down quickly, is the right move. Sometimes you're going to have to bail on that and come back way later. And then sometimes you need in the store just to calm down, regulate and go from there. But we'll talk about some of those examples. [00:17:12] Speaker B: I love so much about that. [00:17:13] Speaker C: JD and JD, there was this. [00:17:16] Speaker B: Go, Lauren, girl, we both got thoughts. You take it away. [00:17:19] Speaker C: Take. [00:17:19] Speaker B: It was just. [00:17:20] Speaker C: There's this specific moment, too that could have gone one way or the other, right? So like a punishment mindset would have been, hey, you're going to get it together and go in here and follow the rules, or we're going to. Yeah, that's a punishment mindset. Do what I say or there's going to be a consequence and the consequences. We're leaving. Instead, you set some limits, right, of what we can and can't do in the store, and then said, do you feel like you can do that? Because if you can't, we don't have to go back in. We can go home. And that's the total difference in a loving limit versus a consequence or punishment. [00:17:51] Speaker A: Totally. Tana, I wonder if you had some other examples to give different kind of scenarios there. [00:17:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I think one of the things that I was appreciating about the example that you gave, and then I can think for a second, I'm sure I've got some. But when you think about that loving limit, you had so much curiosity in that moment to think about big picture. Even when you were telling us the story, you were inviting us into understanding the experience from the child's perspective. You were like, there's so much going on. There's so much at eye level. It's hustle and bustle. You mentioned the bustle of the holiday season, maybe even the stress that you were under, the fact that you were probably running a quick errand that may or may not have been ideal to run with a younger child. I mean, all of those things are considerations for the situation at hand. And so part of what you did is you changed the kiddo's environment so they could regulate. [00:18:54] Speaker A: That's right. [00:18:55] Speaker B: You were like, we're going to get out of here, and we're going to just a change of pace, moving their body, getting out of all the stimulation, having a minute with just you, you, because it's okay. Also got out of the situation where you were being watched or judged for how you were going to move forward. [00:19:11] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:12] Speaker B: You said, this is a very circle of security idea, but I'm bigger, stronger, wiser, and kind, and I can give you the support we need right now to see if we can be successful. And well done, jd. I mean, we could give so many other examples, but that's the essence of what you did. And then this child was able to talk it through with you. They're not always going to be developmentally able to talk it through, but the same concept is true. Like you said, these are my expectations. Here's the way it has to go for us to function in this place and space, because there are certain expectations for certain environments, and sometimes children can be successful in those environments, and sometimes they cannot. And just knowing that and accepting that as true does not mean they're bad kids. It doesn't mean they should. I mean, it just is. This is true of us as adults. Right? Sometimes I can be really in a good headspace on a Monday morning at 08:00 a.m. And sometimes I might struggle a little bit more. We have different capacity and different capability and different abilities in any given situation. But you showed felt safety, you showed relational support. You offered the boundary. You did not say, I mean, not that you would have. This is a little bit exaggerating, but you didn't say to the clerk, my kid, my rules, honey, touch whatever you want. That's permissive. Right? And then you also didn't say, I've told you 1 million times not to touch something. We're getting out of here, kid. [00:21:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:02] Speaker B: No, you should have known better punishment. You said, there's a third way. There's a third way for them to be successful and learn and grow with my support, for me to get my errand run. Maybe to your point, Lauren, we have to be able to say the kid can't handle it and be flexible. I think so much about this is like our willingness to be flexible, right? [00:21:29] Speaker A: 100%. [00:21:32] Speaker B: I know. I didn't really give another example. I think I'm just really proud of that one. I think that one holds so many principles or concepts or ideas of how this really does. Look, I remember one time very early on in our parenting, and I've probably shared this story on an episode before, but I think it was such a profound moment for me. It was one of those eye opening light bulb moments, and it was. Some of our older kids were young. We had been at a park with a lot of other parents. We'd played. It was long. It was hot. I'd overdone it. I know the limits and needs physically, of our kids, and we overstayed our welcome. We shouldn't have stayed as long. And I picked the kiddo up. They were losing the ability to be regulated. I did not have these words at the time. Yeah, but I just picked them up and said, it's time to go, and they flailed. And when they did, I got hit in the face. And I heard the other moms go. And it was that same concept of, like, oh, no, I wouldn't. He better not. Not my kid. And the environment at which we were parenting was very punishment. They definitely leaned more towards heavy handed consequences, literally handed consequences. And, of course, I'm sure I turned a million shades of red, and I was thinking, like, I'm processing. And it wasn't parent shame. It was just curiosity. I wasn't like, oh, my gosh, honey, you're a horrible mom. You should have stayed so long. But I was like, dang it. I knew we should have left 20 minutes ago. [00:23:15] Speaker A: They're hungry. [00:23:16] Speaker B: They're tired. It's nap time. This particular kid had some significant needs that I just was pretending weren't there that day, because I want to stay and talk to moms. Like, I pushed them. We got in the car, buckled them in, and within, like, 30 seconds, they were sound asleep. [00:23:32] Speaker A: Of course. [00:23:33] Speaker B: Sound asleep. [00:23:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:35] Speaker B: You know what I mean? What am I to do then? Am I to unbuckle them when we get home 45 minutes later and dispense some sort of punishment? No. If they were old enough, we could have talked through a different way. I just think this is about a heartbeat and a mindset about how we're approaching and thinking about the whole picture, and we do not let our children get away with things that they shouldn't get away with. That do not benefit them, but how we help them stop doing those things is everything. [00:24:14] Speaker A: Lauren, that example, obviously, I think several of us have had those moments. The accidental hit in the face or hit anywhere is one of the most triggering, like being able to keep it together. Kudos to you, Tana. Like, being able to keep it together and not do the reflexive arm grab that maybe other parents don't see, but you're like, I will end you. It's so hard to control yourself in that moment. I wonder if you've ever had a moment like that or can think of an example of like that for parents who might have flailers who are thinking like, yeah, you're small limits. We leave a party before that kid wants to and they are going to wreck everything in sight. So I don't know if you have any thoughts on examples like that. [00:24:56] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I'm just thinking personally and professionally. I have so many examples, I think stories that people have shared with me, even. And I think there's this whole other layer when we're around other people where there's, like, shame and embarrassment on our part. I need to get control over this. And unfortunately, there's a lot of people who still do have the punishment mindset, right? So I think there's this fear. I know I've had this, that they're going to look at me like I am being permissive. If I don't threaten, if I don't use this punishment mindset, then I'm not in control, I'm not handling the behavior. And that's just simply not true. Right? It's just simply not true for all the reasons that we said. So, I think one of the greatest tools that feels super simple is just like, practicing the pause, right? When something like that happens, when a flail happens and a child accidentally hits us, it's easy to automatically respond. But if we can pause for just a second and realize they didn't do that on purpose, right. That wasn't intentional. And also, if we are too triggered just asking for support. I need a minute. That just triggered me, right? I'm now dysregulated. Whoever else is there, it's the other parents there. If your parents there, whoever it is. Hey, can you take over for a second and let me go get myself together and then the repair can happen later. Right. But I think we've got to be able to give ourselves breaks, too. [00:26:28] Speaker B: Totally. I'm thinking about another sort of concept that I feel like collides with this moment. Because again, this is where I'm like, we're not advocating for permissive parenting. We're advocating for supporting the kids in the moment and having the insight to do that. So one of the examples that we talk about in the cultivate connection parenting class is it's an idea of like, a teenager. So let's talk about this in a teen scenario. So what if you've got a teenager that you realize has been taking the phone into their room at night and watching and doing when they shouldn't be or when it's been communicated that that wasn't something that was going to be okay. And so a punishment mindset, or even one that's, like, reactionary, right? So your first reaction might be, they don't ever listen to me. They can't be trusted. They're probably in there looking at inappropriate things. This kid's never going to be able to handle the freedom of a phone. What was I even thinking? Just on and on and on. I mean, so many things that could come to our minds that are just. Maybe some of that. I'm not even saying all that's untrue. I'm just saying it could make us react. So then the punishment would be storming in there. How many times have I told you that you're not supposed to get your phone at night? Now you've lost your phone for a whole month. [00:27:55] Speaker A: Yes. [00:27:55] Speaker B: Give me your phone. We're done. Okay. That is like reactionary punishment. The loving limits mindset would be to just, you said, lauren, practice the pause in this moment. Take a beat and get curious. So to me, I would say, I wonder what's going on. I wonder why they got up in the middle of the night to get their phone. I wonder if there's some sort of stressor. Why aren't they able to sleep? What's going on with them at night? Even if they were looking at inappropriate things, what's motivating them to do that? What's happening underneath the surface? What are they trying to escape from? I wonder if there's any stress. I wonder if they're having a hard time settling down at night. I wonder if there's some social pressure, like maybe we need to change up our routine or we need some reminders, or we need to help support the child's ability to not sneak and get their phone. So then you come to the child, and it's a different kind of interaction. It's not permissive. Never mind. I'm just going to ignore the fact that they did that. They can have their phone. I'm too tired of trying. It's something more like. I'm not saying it's these exact words, but. Hey, hon, it seems like you're having a hard time falling asleep at night. I see that you got your phone last night. Do you remember the things that we've talked about? About how important it is to get a good night's sleep. Do you remember that? We've talked about that. The phone needs to stay in our room charging at night. I'm wondering what was going on. Do you have anything you want to share with me? Is there anything we can talk about? What might you need in order to sort of follow through with that commitment that we've made to each other? And remember, you need a good night's sleep, and if you don't stop getting on it, we might need to put it away for a while. It's okay with repetitive, ongoing behaviors to set up what on the outside might look like a punishment. But if it's not meant to harm them, then it's a boundary. [00:29:58] Speaker A: That's right. [00:29:59] Speaker B: Agreed upon. It's discussed ahead of time. It's like, hey, honey, we're doing this because it's actually a boundary. You need to be successful. How can we work on it together? That is a very different way of problem solving and working through it and inviting them into the conversation in a way that helps them even maybe the next time they were to go reach for the phone, they would ask themselves what they need instead. I know. That's like pie in the sky ideal. That is what we're working towards. [00:30:34] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:30:36] Speaker C: Yeah. And I would say, tana, as, like, that just feels so much less stressful. Right, right. Instead of just getting angry and assuming that my child's making bad choices because they're just a bad kid and punishing and making them feel shame and guilt, just come at them and, like, what's going on? And can we figure this out together? And I have some real life example of the pie in the sky that's taken us years to get to. Right. We've got a teenager in my house, and there's just a lot of safety issues around phone and Internet usage. So there has to be a lot of limits. There just has to be. And the expectations are known. And when expectations are broken, other limits are put in place. That is all communicated in advance. And it took a lot of time as parents for us to get there, even, like, the communicated in advance piece, not the reactionary punishment. But my son will say to me, sometimes this does feel like a consequence. It feels like a consequence. And I'm like, I know it does, buddy, but it's not. We've got to keep you safe. Right. We're not angry at you. We've got to keep you safe, and we're going to figure out what we can do to loosen some of these limits again. Right. And so coming at it from that standpoint has been such just, I don't know, like a breath of fresh air. And we've got a support from a therapist as well that we're working with, but we can step back and say, what's going on? Why are we engaging in the unsafe behaviors? Again, what's missing? What could we be doing different as parents? What are we not monitoring that we could be monitoring better, right? What needs are not being met that we could meet better? And so that's sort of this guy in this guy ideal, right? Like we're finally at this place where we can say, let's go talk about why this is hard and build some skills around it. Because you know what? I can't monitor your cell phone forever. Like, you've got to learn to be safe on the phone and the Internet. [00:32:33] Speaker B: Right? That to me, again, is sort of this. There's so many principles that are woven throughout that that I feel like really undergird the fact that it can be implemented in so many ways. If you can flip the switch on the mindset and the goal and why you're doing what you're doing, because it's not about making them suffer more because they didn't have self control. That's often what it is. It's like, oh, they don't have self control. I'm going to punish them into having more. [00:33:10] Speaker A: Yes. And when you explain it that way, it's helpful to be like, oh, I see it. I see that now. Right? In the old way of thinking, you think there's no way to learn self control without being taught. And that statement in itself is actually true. Right. But our methodology of how we get there is where we're trying to shift. [00:33:32] Speaker B: If they don't have self control, they need our help, and they're not going to want our help if they're afraid of getting in trouble. I remember one time we told a kiddo like, hey, babe, I think that this could be happening. And I just want to let it was about a different kind of behavior. And I'm like, I wonder if for a while you would feel safe enough to come tell me when you think about doing it. And they were like, what? I was like, if you want to just come and tell me, hey, I'm thinking about doing x, Y and Z. Then I can be like, thank you so much for sharing that with me. What do you need right now? And you all, they did it. I am not saying that it felt super comfortable for me to know that information at any given time. [00:34:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:34:21] Speaker B: And it didn't need to happen very long, but it was like this human being, I don't know, the enforcer. I don't want to be the big bad enforcer. I want to be the person that my kids know they can come to when they don't know if they can do it on their own. [00:34:42] Speaker A: Yeah, because that scaffolding piece, what you're kind of training into them, hopefully, is that they're living independently one day. They don't know how to tackle something, but they know the skill of finding a trusted advisor around them to then ask for help to grow into that. Maybe that's at work, asking a boss for help on something instead of just trying to fake it till you make it or whatever. Yeah, I think I love this. And it's a super helpful mind shift. [00:35:12] Speaker C: Because we also know that oftentimes punishment and consequences, they break connection. Right. And so if there's a break in connection between us and our kids, how are we going to help them learn these skills that we're expected them to know? They can't learn it on their own. They just can't. If they could, they would. Right. And so if we're coming at it from a connected standpoint, they're going to feel less shame, less guilt. They're going to feel support by us, and hopefully we can figure it out together. [00:35:38] Speaker B: I love that. I would say my permission to us or my invitation to us as parents is you do not have to find the way of connected parenting and fall into the permissive hole. And you don't have to be heavy handed. There literally is a third way forward, and it can be. I remember Dr. Purvis used to talk a lot about that nurture and structure. And that nurture helps build trust and structure helps children grow. And we've brought that and kept that in all of our content as sort of these two sides of the scale, if you will. And that's why we say a loving limit. It's a limit done with nurture and love. It's saying, I'm here to help set a limit because limits do help us grow. And Lauren, before we got on, you even talked a little bit about that setting those limits might create a little discomfort. And what does it mean for us to sit with our children in some of that discomfort? And that's where we get to offer the nurture, right? Yes. [00:36:50] Speaker C: I think that's where disconnected parenting sometimes can border into that permissiveness. Like, people see it as that, because if we set a limit and our child responds negatively, then sometimes we want to fix that feeling for them, right? Oh, I don't want my kid to be sad, so I'll just give them the thing they want. That's permissive. Right. So we have to set the loving limit and that could cause big emotions. And, hey, I know that it's really sad that you can't eat ice cream for breakfast just a couple of times a week. I have this conversation in my house, right? That makes you really sad. I get it in our body first. Like, mommy's going to sit here with you in the sad. And we can have ice cream after lunch, right? And so that meltdown. [00:37:41] Speaker A: Ten minutes and. [00:37:42] Speaker C: Might last five minutes. And I have to be okay sitting with that discomfort with them and not change the limit just because they're. [00:37:49] Speaker A: Let me just say that ice cream for breakfast thing, I need that reminder too because I love ice cream for breakfast. [00:37:58] Speaker B: I appreciate this conversation. I think it's nuanced. It's not easy. [00:38:04] Speaker A: Right? [00:38:04] Speaker B: Like you even said, jd, we're not going to give you like, three simple steps. There is not a do this, then this, then this. And you know that you've appropriately set a loving limit. [00:38:12] Speaker A: Right? [00:38:13] Speaker B: It's a very individual. Know your child, know yourself, assess the environment, assess the circumstances, be curious about their behavior, and then be brave. Be brave in the face of other people, in the face of opinions, in the face of others. Be brave to find a new way and to feel strong in that. And there's hope. This loving limit thing, if you're feeling run over by your kids, it's probably time for some limits. If you're feeling like your kids are battling you at every point, it's probably time to release some punishment like your kids and their behavior in your relationship is telling you which side of this pendulum you're falling. Probably. Probably. That would be my little closing thoughts for today. [00:39:09] Speaker A: Man. Well, guys, thank mean, this is super helpful and hopefully helpful for by listening. So appreciate you guys. [00:39:19] Speaker B: Thanks, JD. Thanks, Lauren for being with us. It was fun to have you. [00:39:22] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you, Lauren. [00:39:23] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:39:24] Speaker C: Thanks having me. [00:39:28] Speaker A: Well, just a huge thank you to Lauren and Tatana for coming on today. And man, this has been a super helpful conversation overall for me. And so I hope it has been for you as well. Just these reminders of the fact that one, discipline is to teach, two, that it is done in the parameters of making sure that your kids feel safe and being able to give them what they need to find their way, ask for help when they need it, and then when we have to set limits and boundaries to make sure that they are walking the right way. We've got tactics that do that. They don't break connections. So super helpful. Really thankful for both Lauren and tana coming on today. So hopefully it was good for you as well. So with all that said, that's all for us today. We've got more great stuff in the way, a little bit more on discipline. We've also got one of our favorite, favorite recurring guests coming back here in a few weeks. And so I will not spoil who that is, but you will want to stick around for that. But for everybody here at etc. For Kyle Wright, who edison all of our audio. For Ted Jewett, the creator of the music behind the empowered to connect podcast, I'm JD Wilson. We'll see you next week on the Empower to connect podcast.